Will AI sighting be fixed (reduced) with 1.07?

[ricnunes 0]

I believe that most will agree that the enemy AI sighting "capability" is way exagerated compared with what should be a real soldier. For example in the campaign (stock) mission where you need to snipe an enemy officer from a hotel's balcony, as soon as I kill the officer and even from very far (from a top of a northeast mountain) and even by firing only one single shot (from my M24) the enemy AI soldiers imediatly (I really mean imediatly! detects me and shots at me with extreme accuracy.

Yes, I managed to complete this mission several times but that's not the problem, the problem is how the AI behaves in this mission and in other similar situations!

I really like to see this issue fixed, so I ask here if this is on the list of fixed bugs in 1.07?

Or is it already fixed in 1.06? (note that I'm not American, I'm European so I only have version 1.05).

[NeMeSiS 11]

Its not sight, its their hearing. (or they are in the same group, but i doubt thats the case here)

The main problem is that when they know you (knowsabout > x?) trough their hearing they immideatly know your exact position, this makes sence when they see you, but ofcourse you cannot hear someones exact position in real life..

But i doubt this will be fixed anytime soon (altough their hearing capabilities can be lowered, it would just make them a bit deaf ).

[Stagger Lee 0]

I agree their passive ability to spot you from a distance, especially while partially obscured by soft-cover is a bit exaggerated. In one mission I had managed to gain entrance to an unoccupied building at night, and was standing far back from the 2nd floor window and no enemy had been alerted my presence, the room was in complete darkness, and I get one shotted from 150 meters by a lone soldier just walking down the street. He had no reason to be alarmed, and didn't even have nightvision.

I'd love to see their end-of-month friendly fire reports.

I admit things like this are to be expected when dealing with a.i. but there's always room for improvement, especially considering how much this game gets right and how great the a.i. is in other respects.

[frederf 0]

I find the AI to be utterly blind. Running across open desert only 500m in front of them all day and they do nothing. Knowing the player's exact position after having a bullet pass really close is of course a problem.

When a bullet passes by, the AI should get a hint as to what direction it came from based on where they are facing. If they are facing directly away from the shooter they might only know +/-45 deg where it came from and a rough estimate of range. If the AI was looking directly at the shot come in they might only have a 5 degree window where they know it came from.

These windows should cause the AI to:

1. Become alert

2. Concentrate observation in these areas

3. Try to take cover from these directions

The reason the gave devs made the AI return fire so accurately is 1. simple to code and 2. covers up the AI's inability to see far. The combination of the AI's nearsightedness and not being able to return fire very well would leave them very unrealistically at a disadvantage.

My ideal AI would have some very straightforward characteristics:

1. Detect players at much longer ranges (soft detect as well as very certain). Being able to walk in the open up to the AI is silly. Most OFP vets like myself have a sixth sense for exactly where the AI visual range is and will happily walk in the open just to the edge of this range then switch to smarter movements inside this range.

2. AI shoot less robotically. Fire faster and less precisely when excited and fire slower and more accurately when Zen focused (not detected, well covered, not taking fire). And finally get suppressive and even speculative fires by the AI like we were promised.

3. Have to actually spot you when being shot at without magically knowing where you are. Throw a grenade over a wall, blow off a satchel and the enemy near the effects knows EXACTLY where you are... huh? The AI should have to drag out their eyeballs and actually spot you, even if the guy next to them took a bullet to the chest while on patrol. That should only serve to help them scan for you, not simply put a big flashing arrow over your head.

Summary: I disagree with the idea that AI see too well. AI should behave like players and players see much better than AI. Although the return fire AI is much too accurate. I've come under fire in a PvP MP game and I can tell you the average person is not nearly as good at return fire compared to the AI.

[froggyluv 2136]

Frederf I think your points are all valid but the AI does seem to have an uncanny ability to spot. try loading up an AI gunner in an mk19 jeep and drive thru a city in Evolution and watch him rack up the kills. Even the 'player character' calls out enemies that I definitely couldn't see thru dense foliage or over a hill. I love it when 2 shouts out "enemy Mg'er- 1000!" when were below a hill.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Even the 'player character' calls out enemies that I definitely couldn't see thru dense foliage or over a hill. I love it when 2 shouts out "enemy Mg'er- 1000!" when were below a hill.

While i can believe that for bushes under certain circumstances you need to prove that for hills to me..

Just make a vid, put a guy on one side of the hill, put one on the other and 'format globalchat' the knowsabout of them..

[funnyguy1 0]

I agree with Frederf...

Their sight isn't good at all. It's just a matter of the mission design and some smart scripts afaik. Anyway, try lowering the precision settings an it should be ok. (lowering it a bit is more realistic anyway).

Imho AI should take cover first, and then think about engaging you.

[ricnunes 0]

Being it hearing of seeing, I just wish that this "problem" gets fixed as soon as possible.

I don't know how the code of ArmA actually works but I believe that the problem isn't only be related to hearing (of which some very good point were drawn here) but I strongly believe that this is also related to sighting, afterall even for an AI to be able to shot at you it must see (sight) you first and there's no way in the situation above that anyone (except an exagerated or "cheating" AI) would ever know where I actually was.

To me the right course of action for this situation and many other similar ones would be to send a patrol(s) seaching roughly in the direction where the shot came from (due to the sound from the shot) and only when the AI actually manages to get close enough to see you than it would engage (fire upon) you.

Also I want to say that I completly agree with froggyluv, that there are in fact situations where the AI sees an enemy soldier at a distance to far and/or covered in a way where it would be impossible for any human player ever be able to see that same soldier. Also froggyluv makes a very good point in which the player's own caracter can in some situations (which are very frequent and very far from being few) automatically "detect" an enemy soldier. Since this actually happens than I think it's clear than an AI soldier can also see an enemy at the same exagerated distances or covered situations.

Also like froggyluv reported, yesterday when I was playing a user made mission my own caracter detected an enemy soldier at 1000 meters on the top of a mountain, a situation where even with binoculars it's extremelly hard to spot that same enemy soldier (I really needed to put my binoculars in order to see that enemy AI)!!

Quote[/b] ]I agree with Frederf...

Their sight isn't good at all. It's just a matter of the mission design and some smart scripts afaik. Anyway, try lowering the precision settings an it should be ok. (lowering it a bit is more realistic anyway).

Imho AI should take cover first, and then think about engaging you.

My biggest problem with the AI isn't the accuracy which like you said can be lowered (anyway, thanks for the advice) but it's how the AI spots you. I completly agree when you said that the AI "should take cover first, and then think about engaging you."

Finally and while I also agree that enemy soldiers should lay down diferent kind of fire besides aimed shots, for me the sighting/hearing should be a much bigger priority since I don't complain that much about the AI shooting (with some reduced aiming skill) for the simple reason that while the AI only seems to lay aimed shots, at least the ArmA's AI takes time to aim and only some time after is when the AI decides to pull the trigger. So at least it isn't like for example Rainbow Six Rogue Spear where an enemy AI would shot you instantaneously the head with a UZI or MAC-10 submachineguns (or any other kind of weapon) without even taking time to aim.

[NeMeSiS 11]

I don't know how the code of ArmA actually works but I believe that the problem isn't only be related to hearing (of which some very good point were drawn here) but I strongly believe that this is also related to sighting, afterall even for an AI to be able to shot at you it must see (sight) you first and there's no way in the situation above that anyone (except an exagerated or "cheating" AI) would ever know where I actually was.

Wrong.

The AI engages you when their 'knowsabout' about you is high enhough.

the 'knowsabout' increases by:

1. Seeing you

2. Hearing you

3. You being reported by other squadmembers

When the 'knowsabout' hits a certain level, the AI will know your exact location, speed and direction. As long as they can see you or have a direct soundsource (you constantly fire or they hear your footsteps) they will continue to know your exact location, speed and direction.

If they cannot see you, hear you and there are no other squadmembers who can, the enemy will estimate your exact location(so it wont look in an certain area) by following a linear line depending on your last known direction and speed.

AFAIK for the AI it does not matter in which way their 'knowsabout' value about you hits the critical level, once its reached they will attack, be it trough hearing, seeing or being reported. So theoratically they could hear your location trough a bush and shoot you.

Note: When you hit an enemy his 'knowsabout' about you will automatically jump to the crtitical level (or above it), he will report you and his whole squad will automatically know you are there.

Note2: There is a bug with the 'knowsabout', while it OFP it lowered in small steps so the AI would slowly forget about you, in ArmA the value stays fixed and after a x time without contact their knowsabout about you will drop to 0.

[ricnunes 0]

Whatever, (but thanks very much for the explanation)

the point is that in that sniper mission (killing the officer in the hotel) I put myself in a very far position from ANY enemy AI unit (the farthest possible on top of the northeast mountain in relation to the hotel building) and I only shot once which immediatly killed the officer (one shot - one kill) and there is simply NO way (comparing to "real world") that they could detect me instantly and after 1 or 2 seconds top starting to receive enemy fire!

Anyway, I would like to know if this will be fixed by 1.07? If not when or is this a high priority bug?

Thanks in advance for replies...

[frederf 0]

Frederf I think your points are all valid but the AI does seem to have an uncanny ability to spot. try loading up an AI gunner in an mk19 jeep and drive thru a city in Evolution and watch him rack up the kills. Even the 'player character' calls out enemies that I definitely couldn't see thru dense foliage or over a hill. I love it when 2 shouts out "enemy Mg'er- 1000!" when were below a hill.

I should correct myself. Man seeing man spotting is rather blind. Some of the stuff about spotting vehicles is really really hypersensitive. Like I roll an AI M1A1 over a ridge line and they know about all the T-72s in the 3x3km valley in front of me in 10 seconds.

[suma 8]

Quote[/b] ]AFAIK for the AI it does not matter in which way their 'knowsabout' value about you hits the critical level, once its reached they will attack, be it trough hearing, seeing or being reported. So theoratically they could hear your location trough a

This is not the way it works. Each sensory channel has its own accuracy and its own precision. knowsabout is only a very rough indication of what the AI means about the target, the internal knowledge state is much more complex, including information positional precision, information age and information reliability. If you want us to check any issues in this area, we absolutely need a repro step demonstrating a problem in one particular situation to be reported in the bug tracker. (Debugging based on descriptions "AI always does" or "AI sometimes does" is really not possible for me).

If anyone can create a simple mission (preferrably on the Rahmadi island) which demonstrates any AI spotting problem, and will send the mission either to bug tracker, or to me directly, I will definitely be glad to check it, as we strive to have the AI spotting system as accurate as it can be.

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

Hi ofpforum and Suma

I thought this

Quote[/b] ]

When the 'knowsabout' hits a certain level, the AI will know your exact location, speed and direction. As long as they can see you or have a direct soundsource (you constantly fire or they hear your footsteps) they will continue to know your exact location, speed and direction.

If they cannot see you, hear you and there are no other squadmembers who can, the enemy will estimate your exact location(so it wont look in an certain area) by following a linear line depending on your last known direction and speed.

...is solved with 1.05:

http://bugs.armed-assault.net/view.php?id=1614

or is there no relation?

And this:

http://bugs.armed-assault.net/view.php?id=2329

about the level increasing/decreasing is maybe also solved?

Since we do not really know how how the AI environment perception works, it is hard to judge if it is a bug or an odd implementation.

There are other TTs related to those 2 TT with similar issues.

So is it like each AI calculates somehow out of each sensory channel (visual, audio, scanner, team member?) an own knows about level?

Is the parameter knows about the one and only triggering the attack?

What decreases the knows about level? Time? Missing visual contact?

With a more detailed description how it SHOULD work, we could prepare more detailed test campains.

BR

I&C

[4 IN 1 0]

these two are not at all related(major-child relation), yes both are about the knowabout value, one is the wrong link between human players placed explosive device such as mines and charges so that once they blow up, everyone knows you were there, the others, however, is a direct problem about how the AI handles the value, realistic wise, the value should be reduce over time, but in ArmA the value will stay at hightest (1.0) for a long time untill it suddently decrease to 0

edit: to put suma post into a more simple from, the knowabout value is only a basic value which shows if the player is awared by enemy AIs, while the contain within is a numbers of different values work together so the to set if the AI have direct visual contact with you/ was once spotted you/ know you where there but dunno if you have moved to another location or simply dont know that you where there

[froggyluv 2136]

@Ofpforum

Well I'll have to concede the 'over the hill' point as I was unable to recreate that reaction. I guess that was resolved in one of the patches as i haven't noticed it in quite a while.

[Second 0]

I find the AI to be utterly blind. Running across open desert only 500m in front of them all day and they do nothing. Knowing the player's exact position after having a bullet pass really close is of course a problem.

In fact i'm not so sure that AI is blind, well basically they are but there is more to than that.

They don't seem to notice still standing enemy from about 200 meters. My theory is (and i tested that theory in OFP years ago) that they spot man from longer distances, but they aren't sure that it is enemy which they see. If someone doesn't look at it with binoculars or object doesn't do someting, like shoot, it is kept under unknown status.

Binocular by my experience are bad for AI than human. Human can determe target's side (enemy or friendly) from much longer distances than AI. I'm not sure does binoculars even work in same way with AI than human.

Raising sensitivity (eye sight) values has it's badsides, as they start to see better at night and in terrain where player can't see a thing... But my experience from OFP is that if sensitivity was set to about 1.6-1.8, then eyesight of AI was proper. Running or jogging soldier was determed to be enemy or friendly at range of about 250 meter (plain eyes), when with OFP's default values that range was 180 meter what is utterly low!

[frederf 0]

I find the AI to be utterly blind. Running across open desert only 500m in front of them all day and they do nothing. Knowing the player's exact position after having a bullet pass really close is of course a problem.

In fact i'm not so sure that AI is blind, well basically they are but there is more to than that.

They don't seem to notice still standing enemy from about 200 meters. My theory is (and i tested that theory in OFP years ago) that they spot man from longer distances, but they aren't sure that it is enemy which they see. If someone doesn't look at it with binoculars or object doesn't do someting, like shoot, it is kept under unknown status.

Binocular by my experience are bad for AI than human. Human can determe target's side (enemy or friendly) from much longer distances than AI. I'm not sure does binoculars even work in same way with AI than human.

Raising sensitivity (eye sight) values has it's badsides, as they start to see better at night and in terrain where player can't see a thing... But my experience from OFP is that if sensitivity was set to about 1.6-1.8, then eyesight of AI was proper. Running or jogging soldier was determed to be enemy or friendly at range of about 250 meter (plain eyes), when with OFP's default values that range was 180 meter what is utterly low!

I've waded through the BIS config.bin's before. I know about Man class and WSoldierB class and whatnot.

That could very well be that the AI spots people out to 1km but cannot tell "SIDE" until they get closer. But I do not think that is the case. When I am leading AI and I have an unknown friendly BLUFOR at 500-1000m, my squad does not detect them as "Man" they do not detect them at all.

The easiest fix if that IS the case would be to adjust the precision values in the config so that the switch from "Man" to "WSoldierB" would happen at much smaller precisions. I don't think that would change how well AI see at night either.

[Second 0]

That could very well be that the AI spots people out to 1km but cannot tell "SIDE" until they get closer. But I do not think that is the case. When I am leading AI and I have an unknown friendly BLUFOR at 500-1000m, my squad does not detect them as "Man" they do not detect them at all.

I was about to tell about that, but deleted it. Well here i go again:

If you mean that they don't report ("9 o'clock, unknown man, 500") unknown objects, there's good reason for it. They would block radiochanel with brainless reports.

But i'm not sure about my theory: As there isn't unknown objects visible in target menu 2-0, or in cadet mode with full map-data. Otherwise map would be full of unknown men, vehicles, things and same would apply to target menu.

But then again, they do report ("9 o'clock, unknown man, 500") lots of unknown objects when game-time is night. But that doesn't prove much.

Overall: I think that your right, but i'm not fully conviced... If there is somekind smart filter that doesn't let most of unknown objects to be displayed in target menu and map.

[hoz 0]

Being it hearing of seeing, I just wish that this "problem" gets fixed as soon as possible.

Did you check the BTS system to see if there was a bug even reported? If its not there then it's highly likely it won't be fixed if BI doesn't know about it.

[ricnunes 0]

If anyone can create a simple mission (preferrably on the Rahmadi island) which demonstrates any AI spotting problem, and will send the mission either to bug tracker, or to me directly, I will definitely be glad to check it, as we strive to have the AI spotting system as accurate as it can be.

First of all thanks for showing interest in this thread and problem.

The problem that I mentioned before (AI spots you immediatly after you make a single shot from a long distance) can be easily seen if you play the campaign optional mission where you must kill an enemy officer in a hotel's balcony.

You just need to make position on the farthest position possible (and in a high ground) and kill the officer. Almost every enemy AI in that mission will detect you (the player) and fire upon the player. I posted the details on my previous post.

This mission is IMO the best example where this issue can be observed.

[ricnunes 0]

Did you check the BTS system to see if there was a bug even reported? If its not there then it's highly likely it won't be fixed if BI doesn't know about it.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is and where can I find this BTS system?

Thanks in advance for replies...

[walker 0]

Hi ricnunes

Here is the bug-tracker:

http://bugs.armed-assault.net/main_page.php

And Here are the instructions on how to report a bug:

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/BTS_Instructions

The real advantage of the bug tracker for users is people can vote for bugs and raise their profile.

So it is very important to do a search to see if your bug already exists that way the bug gets your vote and input rather than 70 different reports of the same bug.

For the devs it allows them to have a measurable problem to solve.

Kind Regards walker

[Balschoiw 0]

Just had one of these moments when playtesting a mission I´m working on.

In this mission I first fight some sided civillians totally out of reach of enemy forces.

Second I blow up some stuff at their location. This sends some of the guys from the nearby camp on a lookie-lookie tour, which is understandable. After some checking they go back to their camp with their weapons down.

All dandy.

About 10 minutes later I crawl to their camp and place a satchel at their radio-mast.

I move out undetected and move up a hill about 300m´s away from them.

I blast the satchel and the first thing I have is a bright spotlight form a guard in my face who is about 400 meters away and certainly is neither aware of me as I didn´t even come close to him throughout the whole mission.

Needless to say that I was punctured about 2 seconds later by some other guy down at the camp.

I´m sorry, but how the hell could they know where I am ?

It´s pitch black dark and my trousers were colecting dirt as hell as I was robbing quite some miles...

Seriously, this isn´t right.

Edit:

Maybe it´s my sexy perfume ?

[walker 0]

Hi Balschoiw

Then you have a perfect example mission and reproducible actions so report it in the bug tracker.

Kind Regards walker

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Then you have a perfect example mission and reproducible actions so report it in the bug tracker.

Certainly not.

The mission is just too big and too complex to make it reproduceable all the time.

It happens once in a while but not every time.

Apart from that, I would be pretty silly to realease the mission in a BTS system if it´s not even finished, nor properly promoted