More than 3 factions?

[Iron+Cross 0]

Hey long time since that last time i posted here.. been buisy..

So i had a check couldent find anything so ill ask.

Dose any one know how to add more factions to a game of CTI? like say U.S, RUS, Res, & maybe some more factions...

could be fun to make a mini region with 4-8 Factions & maybe add some Trech.. iuhem i mean dimplomacy, to CTI..?

me persionally i have no idea how thsi woudl be possible open to ideas though or some one smart enough to give it a go..

[Big Dawg KS 6]

The only way is to drive/fly to the Prague, find the BIS HQ, walk up to the devs and ask them to add more sides. But they'd probably say no anyway...

[ck-claw 1]

Make Civies friendly to no-one,there's your 4th?

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Make Civies friendly to no-one,there's your 4th?  

That's a bad idea. Empty vehicles & captive units share the civilian side's 'friendly to' properties. You don't want to make these enemies to anyone.

[baddo 0]

I wonder why BIS decided not to allow us to define an arbitrary number of new sides? Is there some serious technical restriction why that cannot be made? OK it could be harder on the computer to handle all the different sides but any other reasons? It should be up to the mission designers to decide how much CPU power the mission uses.

For me it does not make sense that there is a fixed amount of sides in the game.

Another item for Wishlist.

[EricM 0]

With the increasing number of country mods appearing, this is going to be an issue for mission making.

It would be nice to be able to choose the faction independently of the country  in the editor with a dropdown list from 1 to 5 maybe...

Hence you could make a mission with Russians and US together in blufor, then change sides, make a rogue US general a la Dr Strangelove, and have US vs US etc...

[Guest]

Havent played with the Armas Cti version, although I would say its plausable that even Cti by Mike Melvin could have a multitude of factions, but these factions being under one of the two sides.

It wouldnt be quite as advanced as having 15 various sides, but still, each faction could retain its own income pool, main base, towns held, etc. So in all truth these factions would still operate independantly, even tho they would be under the same side.

I think it would be kind of interesting really, considering especially in Ofp Cti how many people would join games and really operate independantly (which was sort of non-helpfull to the cause), but with multiple factions per side, people that did operate in this manner would simply be contributing to a very diverse mission scenario.

Also sounds like a heck of alot of work to put together...

[Big Dawg KS 6]

I wonder why BIS decided not to allow us to define an arbitrary number of new sides? Is there some serious technical restriction why that cannot be made? OK it could be harder on the computer to handle all the different sides but any other reasons? It should be up to the mission designers to decide how much CPU power the mission uses.

For me it does not make sense that there is a fixed amount of sides in the game.

Another item for Wishlist.

Because the engine is built on a predefined amount of sides. In order to change the number of sides I imagine the engine would have to be heavily modified. A side in the game is a lot more than you think, there's a lot you'd have to do to add one. You'd need new scripting commands, new identities, etc... plus it'd be hell to keep track of that many sides and who's friendly to who. It's not something you're going to see in ArmA, I can practically guarantee you... maybe Game 2.

[Iron+Cross 0]

Hmm Well

"It wouldnt be quite as advanced as having 15 various sides, but still, each faction could retain its own income pool, main base, towns held, etc. So in all truth these factions would still operate independantly, even tho they would be under the same side."

that would be like a puppet government.....

Im glad to see im not the only one that thought this might be cool, so i guese we wait on more technical advice from a modder or a Admin.. to see if its possible.

I was personally thinking of a miniture world map, with bridges linking U.S, Euro/Asia, Afrika & Australia, as i can skin & map better than i can model.. although id like to model arma when tools out, but O2 for flashpoint was confusing to me so..

I thought it would be cute to have each player, have a small country.. like say 1 small city & 2-3 small villages, with only 50 guys or somthing to controll his "Nation" & instead of Violence key factor,

it would be Spec ops & tradeing natural goods, & like in CTI if you dident keep tabs on "resistance"/"civilians" they take up arms & hurt your econemy more.

Maybe a small UN + alternative league to vote on things.

now i thought this woudl be a waist of tiome for a 30-45 min game.. but with new server apps out that clean up memory & make persistant gaming possible it might be worth trying a verry small version of this with existing factions..?

& if you check out this prety lag free stratigic missle script it could make for some fun "international" gaming

STRATIGIC MISSLES IN ARMA LOOK

So if KyleSarnik is right which i know he buti dont think he is 100% as the scripting ive barely scratched looksliek you can do a HELL of alot more than just add a couple of new factions.. It still means if we could use the existing factions & have a fun international game, just needs some one with enough understanding of the Sqs scripting to realise it.

any othe rideas of links to anything similar?

[baddo 0]

I wonder why BIS decided not to allow us to define an arbitrary number of new sides? Is there some serious technical restriction why that cannot be made? OK it could be harder on the computer to handle all the different sides but any other reasons? It should be up to the mission designers to decide how much CPU power the mission uses.

For me it does not make sense that there is a fixed amount of sides in the game.

Another item for Wishlist.

Because the engine is built on a predefined amount of sides. In order to change the number of sides I imagine the engine would have to be heavily modified. A side in the game is a lot more than you think, there's a lot you'd have to do to add one. You'd need new scripting commands, new identities, etc... plus it'd be hell to keep track of that many sides and who's friendly to who. It's not something you're going to see in ArmA, I can practically guarantee you... maybe Game 2.

Hmm I think you are just imagining things...

...I think we do not possess enough information to tell what kind of changes would be required into the game engine to allow more sides, or even an arbitrary number. That being the case, you can say nothing about if it is a big task or a small task. That's why I was asking if there is a serious technical restriction or other reasons in the way. The BIS developers can give an answer, if they have had a look at this subject of not limiting number of sides.

Best Regards,

Baddo.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

I wonder why BIS decided not to allow us to define an arbitrary number of new sides? Is there some serious technical restriction why that cannot be made? OK it could be harder on the computer to handle all the different sides but any other reasons? It should be up to the mission designers to decide how much CPU power the mission uses.

For me it does not make sense that there is a fixed amount of sides in the game.

Another item for Wishlist.

Because the engine is built on a predefined amount of sides. In order to change the number of sides I imagine the engine would have to be heavily modified. A side in the game is a lot more than you think, there's a lot you'd have to do to add one. You'd need new scripting commands, new identities, etc... plus it'd be hell to keep track of that many sides and who's friendly to who. It's not something you're going to see in ArmA, I can practically guarantee you... maybe Game 2.

Hmm I think you are just imagining things...

...I think we do not possess enough information to tell what kind of changes would be required into the game engine to allow more sides, or even an arbitrary number. That being the case, you can say nothing about if it is a big task or a small task. That's why I was asking if there is a serious technical restriction or other reasons in the way. The BIS developers can give an answer, if they have had a look at this subject of not limiting number of sides.

Best Regards,

Baddo.

I know only a developer can say how hard it would be, but just taking a look through the main config gives you a hint, as well as looking at various other things. Adding new sides would also cause problems with existing scripts. A lot of scripts use the side command and they're meant to work only with the 4 sides there currently are. Then look at triggers, we have the West/East/Res/Civ present, not present, detected by, etc... Now imagine there being more than those 4 sides. Each side new side would have to be given it's own scripting commands and some of the existing commands would have to be modified each time a new side is added. Then look at the multiplayer setup, there are only 4 sides supported there; respawn markers, briefings, etc... only support the 4 existing sides. Simply put, having an infinite amount of sides (if we were able to create new sides with addons) would make managing them impossible. Seriously, don't just think of a side as who the unit is loyal to, it's more complex. Sides have their own AI centers, groups, identities, etc... not to mention some of the 4 existing sides have unique properties (civilians for example, this side is also used on empty vehicles and objects, as well as captive units). I know that only a dev can say for sure, but I mean you can't deny this evidence.

[Guest]

Hmm Well

"It wouldnt be quite as advanced as having 15 various sides, but still, each faction could retain its own income pool, main base, towns held, etc. So in all truth these factions would still operate independantly, even tho they would be under the same side."

that would be like a puppet government.....

I was trying to respond in a realistic way, considering what we *have* to work with, were not going to get an entire re-vamped version of Arma just because some folks think its cool to have 10 sides instead of 4.

If it could be modded into Arma to have more than the standard sides, I would think by now it would have been done in Ofp?

Lastly, usually when I post (actually always), if im interested in getting some opinions, I dont disregard some that I dont like and indicate they are useless.

[Iron+Cross 0]

KyleSarnik

& Special Ed

damn good points, @ all, although you partialy admited it would be possible yourself, but not practical.. (KyleSarnik)

@ KyleSarnik would it be possible to have semi sides? with maybe 2-4 Fixed Group's? like Arab league, NATO, WARSAW, AU,?

@ Special Ed the  was a joke..sorry

but i'dstill like to hear it from the horses mouth that its not totaly possible, atleast a professional modder or some one from CoC at least, as they got some cool scripts..

[Guest]

@ Special Ed the was a joke..sorry

My apologies as well, sometimes I get a little too touchy and forget the difference between a joke and not

For sure it would dang cool to have a bunch of sides, I guess really for me, even if it could be done, I would be concerned about potential lag due to many more checks and all because of this, but, maybe it wouldnt lag -

Nice topic btw, mnay sides would defenitely open alot of doors for some very diverse missions

[crashdome 3]

but i'dstill like to hear it from the horses mouth that its not totaly possible, atleast a professional modder or some one from CoC at least, as they got some cool scripts..

I think Kyle summed up some good examples. They might not be the complete examples, but it shows the beginnings of how difficult it is. I will go further and add that, depending on the methods used in programming this engine, memory space and other more "technical" factors would need to be addressed. I assume they utilize two bits to designate a side. (00, 01, 10, 11) in many optimized areas of memory. If they've used up the rest of the bits available for other items, than how do you add one more side when you have fixed bit length? (This is all an assumption of course) Even if they could utilize three bits, than you went from four sides to eight and you would (as Kyle said) need to account for that many within all the configs, etc...

I don't see why you need a more in-depth explanation when Kyle:

A) is more than capable of understanding scripting and mod mechanics

B) is not new to any of this

C) has provided some good examples so far

I think you need to give him a bit more credit...

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Quote[/b] ]but i'dstill like to hear it from the horses mouth that its not totaly possible, atleast a professional modder or some one from CoC at least, as they got some cool scripts..

My RHS sig got fluffy-bunnied.

Quote[/b] ]I think you need to give him a bit more credit...

No it's ok I'm used to it. If it means more coming from a CoC member then so be it.

[Iron+Cross 0]

well thats fair enough, but since i dont understand what bits are, i cant agree, at least not untill i understand what implications they have.

& the ,

"I assume they utilize two bits to designate a side."

dont instill a great deal of confidence.

although on the otherhand i loved RHS stuff!

& so i would be tending to belive that.

sorry but im the kind the needs to understand to belive normally, & ive been around to many people that say stuff, but when u ask em to explain it falls flat.. sorry im sure you chaps aint doing that (realy).

still wondering if any one got any exotic ideas for a work around..??

[Millenium7 0]

i'm a programmer so I might be able to shed some light. There are MANY different ways to write code and that makes it quite hard to judge what would be required.

On one hand BIS may have written the game to incorporate just the 4 sides and any formula's and game mechanics revolve entirely around that. In which case adding more factions would require modifying just about all the code relating to them.

On the other it may be as simple as a big free for all but units have a side assigned to them such as unit102 = west, west = enemy to east, friendly to civilian, side chat #1, etc. In which case adding another faction is just extra lines of code to define the side channel, enemy and friendly units and what units are assigned to that side. The triggers, scripts, mission editor and everything else will automatically fall in to place in the same way a vehicle addon will automatically show up in the mission editor and behave as its supposed to. Sure if you wanted to use that extra faction in a mission you'd have to modify it but so is the case if you want to use an addon. You don't have to write the code that controls how its rendered, how it operates, what it collides against, what to send over netcode and so on. The game is written to dynamically handle all that, its just another unit with a config to customise it

Or something in between theres no single way of doing things. Though since ArmA is very much OFP at its core and OFP never had extra factions I think its the former, or at least hard coded and not script handled, so short of getting your hands on the source code and adding in another faction I don't see it happening

[crashdome 3]

  well thats fair enough, but since i dont understand what bits are, i cant agree, at least not untill i understand what implications they have.

& the ,

"I assume they utilize two bits to designate a side."

dont instill a great deal of confidence.

although on the otherhand i loved RHS stuff!  

& so i would be tending to belive that.

sorry but im the kind the needs to understand to belive normally, & ive been around to many people that say stuff, but when u ask em to explain it falls flat.. sorry im sure you chaps aint doing that (realy).

still wondering if any one got any exotic ideas for a work around..??

You've got to be kidding me?

If you don't understand... then learn. It's what education is for. I don't understand the laws surrounding radioactive material but when someone ways "You want to stay away from that stuff - it'll melt your face off" I dont ask questions.

If I wanted to be sure what they are telling me is true, I research it or atleast ask further questions without insulting the dude.For someone who claims to love RHS stuff, I am sure it warms your heart you just insulted one of their team members.

Just because you want to believe its easy doesn't make it so.

Gah... it takes all kinds I guess...

[benreeper 0]

I TOTALLY agree with you Crashdome. How can someone argue a point of view when they don't even understand the basics of that point in the 1st place. It's the counselors obligation to educate themselves. No one's going to do it for you. I learned that a long time ago. If you want something done right, you better do it yourself.

Also many of my scripts are "if then" for the sides; imagine changing all of those,

--Ben

[Iron+Cross 0]

Nice one Millenium7, thanks that answerd my question in a simple & unacuseing manner

[Big Dawg KS 6]

On one hand BIS may have written the game to incorporate just the 4 sides and any formula's and game mechanics revolve entirely around that. In which case adding more factions would require modifying just about all the code relating to them.

This seems more likely, especially since BIS probably had no idea mods & addons would play such a huge role in the community that early on when they were developing it, thus making it easy to add new sides might not have seemed particularly important to them. And it's probably too much to work to go back and change it now, I mean especially after ~5-6 years of development.

Quote[/b] ]For someone who claims to love RHS stuff, I am sure it warms your heart you just insulted one of their team members.

Don't worry about it seems he's already forgotten about me anyway.

Quote[/b] ]I don't understand the laws surrounding radioactive material but when someone ways "You want to stay away from that stuff - it'll melt your face off" I dont ask questions.

Face-melting radioactivity? I'd certainly stay away from that stuff.

[Iron+Cross 0]

" Don't worry about it seems he's already forgotten about me anyway." hair today gone tomorrow.. (reffering to your stuffed bunny).

any ways still open to ideas,

& would love to knbow if any one is working on somthing similar?

any ways just to clear it up in my RHS russian pesant like mind, (likes me RHS crew from ofp me dose)

there is? :

West.

Evil west.?

East.

Evil East.?

Resistance.

Evil Resistance?

Civilian.

& Evil civilian?? (that every one kills)???

sorry just more im playing about in editor more odd things happen..

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Technically there are 6 sides, but only 5 of them are real and only 4 of those are playable:

West

East

Resistance

Civilian

Logic

Enemy

You know west, east, res and civilian already. Logic is a side exclusive to game logics, these are only used for mission mechanics. Side Enemy is unique, it's not even a real side. When a unit of any side gets a very low negative rating they appear as side enemy - enemy to everyone (even their own side). They still remain on their original side technically (ex: still use the same side radio, etc...), but they appear to everyone (including the unit in question) as an enemy. In OFP, using the side command on one of these units returned 'enemy'. However the condition 'side unit == enemy' was strangely never true. A workaround I used was to put it in string:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">format ["%1",side unit] == "ENEMY"

If two units are on side enemy, they are even enemies to eachother, that's usually how deathmatches work.

[deanosbeano 0]

there are many sides already with mutiple complications

scripting can only do so much

you have like is said above the 5 sides

these sides unoffcially and unworkably become ,more with - addrating of -1000 or more ( meaning an opfor will shoot another opfor if you put in one or both units init ,this addrating -001) thus creating a rogue opfor

you can now make designer triggers for them etc

anything is possible but you would be easier making a whole new arma2

too sum up its possible but you need some real heavy story boards and proof testing and workarounds