watchtowers unusable?When you put AI into a watcht

[5133p39 16]

When you put an AI rifleman into a watchtower (for example the wooden ones at the big base/prison camp at the far north of Sahrani - grid coords Ga,14), he won't engage targets more than 50 meters away.

This is rendering the watchtowers completely useless :-(

I uploaded an archive with two testmissions on filefront, to demonstrate this problem. You can get it here: watchtower_test.zip

test01.pbo

In this mission, the AI is inside the watchtower, enemy in clean line of sight, but the AI won't fire at the enemy (except maybe, after a while, throwing a grenade, preferably from prone position, which results in blowing itself into pieces by his own grenade bounced off the ceiling)

test02.pbo

In this mission the AI is on ground, under the watchtower, same distance to the enemy, and same (clean) line of sight.

In this test, the AI will open fire right away, and keeps firing until the enemy is destroyed.

Has anyone reported this problem?

Is it related to some other reported problem?

...i am asking this because i would like to see this "fixed", and i want to be sure i haven't overlooked it in the bugtracker before i post it there.

Any additional / related info or thoughts are welcome.

[5133p39 16]

Little update on the issue:

I tried to put a Sniper, Machinegunner, and static DShKM into the watchtower,

and ONLY the DShKM gunner has been firing at targets more than 50 meters away.

Oh, and i am talking about ArmA version 1.05

[charonos 0]

Are you sure about the machinegunner only?

Have you done a large number of tests?

It was always problematic to have AI fire at each other

when there is geometry LOD between them, i remind of the old

OFP sandbag problem, which was fixable by setting the sandbags to destroyed, but in the watchtower case this wouldn't work for obvious reasons.

[5133p39 16]

Are you sure about the machinegunner only?

Have you done a large number of tests?

It was always problematic to have AI fire at each other

when there is geometry LOD between them, i remind of the old

OFP sandbag problem, which was fixable by setting the sandbags to destroyed, but in the watchtower case this wouldn't work for obvious reasons.

Not Machinegunner only - the DShKM only.

I have tested SLA Rifleman, SLA Machinegunner and SLA Sniper, and neither of them is firing on targets more distant than about 50 meters while in the tower.

Then i tested the DShKM, and only the DShKM was able to fire on the more distant enemy.

I used the switchCamera "gunner", and the enemy was allways perfectly in clean line of sight.

Try the examples i linked, add <table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">this switchCamera "gunner" into the init field of the SLA soldier, and see for yourself.

Maybe it is somewhat related to the p3d model of the watch tower, i'll try the other towers (the small wooden hunting observatory and the old OFP metal one).

[Balschoiw 0]

Have you tried putting yourself into the tower and checked if you are able to move and turn ?

I´ve run into a similar problem that is obviously related to the collision sphere of the building.

Check my post here

[5133p39 16]

ok, i tested the small ugly worn metal tower, and the big open metal tower, and the AI has no problems firing on very distant targets from any of these towers.

The problem looks to be directly related to the wooden tower.

[5133p39 16]

Have you tried putting yourself into the tower and checked if you are able to move and turn ?

I´ve run into a similar problem that is obviously related to the collision sphere of the building.

Check my post here

no, this is not the problem. You can move freely on the wooden tower, and even the AI was allways able to turn and target the enemy target - they just don't pull the trigger (when targeting enemies farther than 50m).

[CHARON CHN 0]

It really sounds like a problem with the model of the tower then,

the engine has problems finding a line of fire internally although you

have clean visual sight. Might be a little inaccuracy in the intersection algorithm used by ArmA, it seems as if the engine only checks if there is an object between the units to fire upon each other, but not if the units could fire above that object, so the z component is maybe not taken into account. Who knows except BIS, anyway too bad it doesnt work for your mission.

[5133p39 16]

It really sounds like a problem with the model of the tower then,

the engine has problems finding a line of fire internally although you

have clean visual sight. Might be a little inaccuracy in the intersection algorithm used by ArmA, it seems as if the engine only checks if there is an object between the units to fire upon each other, but not if the units could fire above that object, so the z component is maybe not taken into account. Who knows except BIS, anyway too bad it doesnt work for your mission.

The strangest thing is that it depends on the distance between the two units.

I tried to position two enemy units so they were aligned in the same line of sight (both lines between enemy1 and tower_guard, and between enemy2 and tower_guard were forming the same angle - as you can see on the diagram below), so there couldn't be any geometry coliding with the line of sight/fire.

But even then, the AI in the tower was firing only at the enemy1 in the 50m distance, and only targeting (but not firing on) the enemy2 in the 100m distance.

[quiet_man 8]

ok, i tested the small ugly worn metal tower, and the big open metal tower, and the AI has no problems firing on very distant targets from any of these towers.

The problem looks to be directly related to the wooden tower.

hmm, have no access to Arma

it the AI firing while standing on other towers?

I have seen AI going prone on large towers and falling from small towers while trying to do so.

Arma/Opf AI is not very bright using buildings or hills at all

QuietMan

[mattxr 9]

Well i have had Snipers in a Lighthouse/Tower/Radio tower and they have engaged me at 300+ meters.. so i dont no where your problem can be :s

[CHARON CHN 0]

Quote[/b] ]

so there couldn't be any geometry coliding with the line of sight/fire.

You don't understand what i mean, the watchtower's geometry itself is causing the trouble, it is not directly in the way but the edges of it are surrounding the unit in the tower, causing the bug comparable to the old OFP/Arma sandbag bug. Do a search for it.

I am afraid there is nothing that you can do about it except wait for the tools and create your own watchtower with the correct geometry LOD.

[Blanco 0]

I reported that bug a month ago on the wiki., the exact same spot and tower. The last time I checked it, it had priority 4.

There's another problem with the radartower (you can find him in empty-object).

In one of the campaign missions (I had to defend on an airfield) I orderded one man to climb in the radartower.

He did well, but later on when ordered him to reform he even climbed down the tower, but he got stuck at the bottom of the ladder.

I reported that bug too, but I don't know it fixed in 1.05.

Quote[/b] ]it is not directly in the way but the edges of it are surrounding the unit in the tower, causing the bug comparable to the old OFP/Arma sandbag bug. Do a search for it.

That sandbag bug is still there. I was so pleased that we could make AI crouch very easily with the setunitpos "middle" command that I tried to make a AIcover script. Unfortunate, AI don't fire over sandbags. The old OFP trick (destroying it) doesn't work in Arma, because it simply dissapears.

I already made a thread about this. I want AI friendly cover objects.

[5133p39 16]

well, i think thats it then, case closed, waiting for fix

At least now we know whats wrong, i was almost starting to doubt myself.

Thanks everyone, once again you saved my sanity

[Big Dawg KS 6]

It really sounds like a problem with the model of the tower then,

the engine has problems finding a line of fire internally although you  

have clean visual sight. Might be a little inaccuracy in the intersection algorithm used by ArmA, it seems as if the engine only checks if there is an object between the units to fire upon each other, but not if the units could fire above that object, so the z component is maybe not taken into account. Who knows except BIS, anyway too bad it doesnt work for your mission.

That's actually not true, for proof put an AI soldier in the top floor of a multistory building looking out a window and have him stand up - he'll easily fire through the window when standing, but if he goes prone he will not (as he cannot even see the enemy). AI are definately able to fire over objects with geometry. AI does consider geometry when firing, also line of sight, but since the two are almost always related it works. You wouldn't want, for example, the AI to fire into a transparent but bulletproof object (like a window) just because he can see through it, that would make them even dumber.

As for the tower, well, if the tower is an object on the island, try a different one of the same type (one in a different location), there might be something else screwing the AI up. If it's still problematic then that specific model has some bad fire or view geometry.

[Blanco 0]

Btw, that radar bug I was talking about is solved in 1.05 I just did the test in the editor.

[charonos 0]

@KyleSarnik

Quote[/b] ]

That's actually not true, ...

I was NOT generalizing the issue,

All i was saying is that the AI is prevented from firing the shot,

in the example of the sandbag it is very obvious that something in the model must be the cause therefore it is highly likely that this is the case with the watchtower.

I am absolutely aware of the fact that the fire intersection does work in connection with other buildings and objects like you described.

Still some objects must have a poor geometry/fire geometry LOD or any other discrepancy in the model that disturbs the otherwise working free-line-of-fire condition.

Unfortunately there is no way (yet) to compare the model of the radar tower (as Blanco stated now post 1.05) pre-patch and post-patch to find out what BIS has changed to correct the bug.

[5133p39 16]

As for the tower, well, if the tower is an object on the island, try a different one of the same type (one in a different location), there might be something else screwing the AI up. If it's still problematic then that specific model has some bad fire or view geometry.

I think i have mentioned that earlier - i tried ALL wooden towers in the grids Ga13, Ga14, Gb13 and Gb14.

ALL these towers have this problem.

Interesting is, that the AI in tower will fire upon the enemy until you position the enemy into distance of more than 50 meters.

The treshold of firing/not-firing is EXACTLY 50 meters - anything beyond that (50.01) and the AI in tower won't shoot.

I'll try to look into the config of this wooden tower and compare it with the towers of other types (as they appear to not have this problem)

[5133p39 16]

Also, it would be nice, if someone who haven't yet upgraded to 1.05 would check whether this problem occured in previous versions, or was introduced in 1.05.

I am sorry, but i don't like the idea of reinstall - some of you must have the older versions installed, right? ;-)

[charonos 0]

Quote[/b] ]

I'll try to look into the config of this wooden tower and compare it with the towers of other types

They all inherit the same base class:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">

class Land_posed : House {

class Land_Vysilac_FM : House {

class Land_komin : House {

and their config just consists of an armor value,

DestructionEffects and maybe Lights definitions.

Nothing spectacular that shows differences from the config-side.

THE PROBLEM CAN ONLY BE IN THE MODEL P3D

[fabrizio_t 58]

Have you posted the issue in the BTS ?

If not i suggest you to do so.

Provide a sample mission too.

[Blanco 0]

Yes I did more then a month ago.

[5133p39 16]

Yes I did more then a month ago.

and i added some comments about my findings.

Its reported under number #1752