Formations - Hopes and Discussion

[Spyder001 1]

Actually, he doesn't tell me what to write, Hes waiting for his registration to be approved. Yes, every country has different tactics, and to the kid who laughed because i said the US was good, I'm sure sitting behind your computer and laughing is easy, but lets look at how fast we took Iraq. Now, I'd like you to look at the part about me saying "I was taught by...", the look at what you said attemting to make fun of me. You said I was a know-it-all. Now seeing as he and other military personel continue to train me, I don't think it was a valid response.

Now as I said, this game is US based, so in order to be realistic, there needs to be US Tactics. Now, if a modder is a russian solider, then he can inplement russian tactics. I started this post with a friendly, this is what I and other US citizens want. I would also like to know who took over the United States. Because I'm pretty sure we started as a colony and then after we won our independence, we became the US. Now tell me who invaded us after that and took us over... Right, now where do you get the information about 300 million russians trying to take over your country. I belive that was the number of people that lived in Russia at the time.

And as for my training, it was done by US personel. They went through official training on infantry tactics and tank tactics.

Please post something now, I enjoy knocking everyone of your comments down, it take me longer to understand what your trying to say than it does for me to type this out. Oh, and as for calling me an ametur, we will see when USM rolls you and your friends over in ArmA, be prepared.

[ran 0]

Actually, he doesn't tell me what to write, Hes waiting for his registration to be approved. Yes, every country has different tactics, and to the kid who laughed because i said the US was good, I'm sure sitting behind your computer and laughing is easy, but lets look at how fast we took Iraq. Now, I'd like you to look at the part about me saying "I was taught by...", the look at what you said attemting to make fun of me. You said I was a know-it-all. Now seeing as he and other military personel continue to train me, I don't think it was a valid response.

Now as I said, this game is US based, so in order to be realistic, there needs to be US Tactics. Now, if a modder is a russian solider, then he can inplement russian tactics. I started this post with a friendly, this is what I and other US citizens want. I would also like to know who took over the United States. Because I'm pretty sure we started as a colony and then after we won our independence, we became the US. Now tell me who invaded us after that and took us over... Right, now where do you get the information about 300 million russians trying to take over your country. I belive that was the number of people that lived in Russia at the time.

And as for my training, it was done by US personel. They went through official training on infantry tactics and tank tactics.

Please post something now, I enjoy knocking everyone of your comments down, it take me longer to understand what your trying to say than it does for me to type this out. Oh, and as for calling me an ametur, we will see when USM rolls you and your friends over in ArmA, be prepared.

Get off your high horse, please.

I'm not one to judge somebody based on a post count and a joining date but there...

This game is not US based. Sure, it's more than likely that the US forces will be the focus of the SP campaign but think about the rest of the game for a second ? What about standalone missions, be they SP or MP ?

Who gives you the right to speak in the name of your countrymen and what does the notion of citizenship and your country's history have to do with this discussion ? Let the trolls starve, don't feed them.

What about getting a slight clue of what the OFP gameplay mechanics are before logging in here ?

On the topic of clues, you might want to hang around here a bit to get a glimpse of this community's mentality before going ballistic at the least comment, man.

What you're talking about can easily be done in cooperative mode, especially if the squad you belong to is as professional as you say. Focusing on this minor detail in sight of the workload the development of the whole game represents would be a needless loss of time. The improvements that are needed are the upgrade of the physics and graphic engines. Add to that the fact that OFP in its vanilla incarnation offers most of what you've described earlier. People put them to use or not depending on their inspirations ingame. It may not have the shiny names from the US field manuals ingame but it's there and it's feasible in OFP, I don't see why it wouldn't be in ArmA. Keep in mind, as pointed out before that the command and formation system needs to remain relatively universal to allow user made mods and addons to retain as much realism as the vanilla units. It must be kept open ended.

Also it's all fine and dandy, but keep that "elite" rethoric to the squads forum please and keep in mind that books are nice and all but the real experience, you scrape it from the field.

Now, Second, I can't believe that such an attitude comes from a member (doesn't matter wether reservist or full time) of one of the finest european armed force.

[Spyder001 1]

Speak for my countrymen?!?, kid did I say what every person in the US wants, no I said what "other" US Citizens want (Refering to only the people I know). It's like no one actually takes the time to read. Please, read, think, then respond.

And I understand that not just US people play, but hey, I don't want to be killed by some AI because I'm wanting to to do one thing then they do something else. Like not watching a sector when they need to be. Besides there IS going to be US forces and US weapons.

And the high horse thing doesn't apply, i'm not gloating....

[Garcia 0]

Speak for my countrymen?!?, kid did I say what every person in the US wants, no I said what "other" US Citizens want (Refering to only the people I know). It's like no one actually takes the time to read. Please, read, think, then respond.

And I understand that not just US people play, but hey, I don't want to be killed by some AI because I'm wanting to to do one thing then they do something else. Like not watching a sector when they need to be. Besides there IS going to be US forces and US weapons.

And the high horse thing doesn't apply, i'm not gloating....

If you "don't want to be killed" because BIS doesn't sit down and implement US tactics, just because the game contains US forces, then I would suggest go find another game.

Hey, think about this, I'm from Norway, therefor I think BIS should add the full norwegian army to the game, because I don't want to get killed because I run around with a US weapon when I could have stayed alive with a weapon used by the norwegian army. Now, was that a valid point? Not really. Just because the game contains US forces and weapon, just because quite many US people play the game, doesn't mean that BIS should implement US tactics.

And about the "other" US citizens. "Other US Citizens" doesn't really refer to "People I know". That was actually on you, you should have written "Certain other US Citizens" or "Other US Citizens that I know". If I write "other norwegians" it is not natural for others to read that as "other norwegians (that I know)".

And as for calling ran a kid...I think he was about your age when you was born

[Second 0]

Now, Second, I can't believe that such an attitude comes from a member (doesn't matter wether reservist or full time) of one of the finest european armed force.

Yes your right... BAD Second! BAD BOY!

Some times it just pisses me off, that U.S stuff. My apoligies to USM-75R.Spyder (deeply). Although i still recommend to get the actual training, teaching from soldier isn't enough: you see teaching can't give you the very basics of militarylife. you can't get them from computer screen, or listening. they have to be experienced with pain, suffering, crying from ache, as that's what military is about, most fieldexercises aren't about teaching as that is already done. Fieldexercises are to put you in to test, and military way of testing things aren't pleasant, you can't sleep, rest, sometimes even eat for days, but still you have to function. I can give you one key word: Devastation (that's what we mostly felt in our mind, during and before more than three days fieldexercises).

I'd like also to apoligies from every one, who feels that i hurt their feelings with this "being good" thing. World is full of fine armies (Russia/USSR beign one of them), and soldiers, that is why they exists. I was carried away with my nationalistic mood.

About Iraq, okay i didn't say that U.S army is lousy. It's training is good, but don't think that it's training is best (yes you didn't say that it would be the best) as there is no way these facts could be calculated to one universal form.

I was refering to sheer size of USSR and Finland, That is what our citizens felt when Winterwar broke loose. "Oh my god! Why we, what are we gonna do. There is 100 times more people over there." You took Iraq fast, but nobody doupted it as it was clear fact that Coalition can't be stopped as it had sheer overpower. But we stopped military force which was thought, by everybody, to be impossible to stop by us (small, poor country), like thinking that second Iraq innovasion would ended in defeat of Coalition (utopia morelike).

U.S is is one of the biggest, it's i covered by ocean from two sides. it's position in order-of-world is nothing like Finland and many other countries, who are living next to giant (and in recent history these giants have been in aggressive mood).

But i think that this should be ended as else this topic will be locked.

[ran 0]

Speak for my countrymen?!?, kid did I say what every person in the US wants, no I said what "other" US Citizens want (Refering to only the people I know). It's like no one actually takes the time to read. Please, read, think, then respond.

And I understand that not just US people play, but hey, I don't want to be killed by some AI because I'm wanting to to do one thing then they do something else. Like not watching a sector when they need to be. Besides there IS going to be US forces and US weapons.

And the high horse thing doesn't apply, i'm not gloating....

You are gloating and the "high horse thing" does apply, stop the patronizing, that's good only when you know who you're talking to.

If you don't want to get wasted ingame because of the insufficient AI, just learn how to play.

You can set up fireteams through the command dialog, you've got a set of formations and other settings that are already enough.

All we need to see is a slightly refined AI.

[Kaveman 0]

Hi!

I hope that our AI squad mates in ArmA could be re-assigned to other positions inside the formation.

You know when they die no one will occupy the positions, so your line formation for example can have holes between you and the rest of the squad. I hate it when my nÅŸ2 dies and the next guy stays miles away instead of occupying the position above him (nÅŸ3 goes to nÅŸ2 and so on).

[znashin 0]

Quote[/b] ]to the kid who laughed because i said the US was good

I'm thirty years old. Please stop condescending. It was funny though. Sorry.

You phrased it as though superior tactics is the only reason the U.S has a strong military which is absurd. I'm not here for arguments so lets try and keep those sort of opinions to ourselves.

[ryankaplan 1]

i'm not from the USA, nor do i have a particular liking for americans in anyway, but really, i dont see what Spyder did wrong. Infact, he never insulted you guys once. For once (sigh...this shouldnt happen) i'll have to agree with the american.

While accusing him of 'high floating' you are claiming that the finnish are one of the best forces in europe...i smell contradiction.

And, US army is the best in the world, if you consider all aspects of war making. They may not be the best in individual aspects however (cockyness, recruitment of idiots into the army, a twat leading them), but your 125 Leopards 'who are fighting with their heart' arent going to help you when 11000 Abrams tanks start rolling down you countryside.

I kid you not, according to what i read, friendly fire levels are very very low compared to other wars. Sure, the british didnt friendly fire nearly as much as americans, but the british soldiers are better trained, it is hard enough to get into the British Army nowadays, let alone the royal marines, because of the government deciding to spend less money on the military. (Fair enough i say, why have another army for another state of the USA anyway). Possibly, the 4x scope on every rifle may help too.

Getting a bit offtopic here, but lets keep the anti-americanism down to non-stupid levels.

As for formations, my simple view on it is, 'Allow custom formations'. If not a 'no formation' formation is essantial. Also, the 'colour teams' i designate, should form thier own formation, rather than stick with the squad formations. Eg, if you order '2,3,6,12 are team red''team red go to that tree' while your squad is in line formations, red team will line up like this:

O O O O

rather than

O O O O

[Garcia 0]

And as it seems people don't know this, custom formations IS available in OFP, and have been for quite some time. General Barron made a custom formation script which allows you to create your own formations. Of course, you would have to set up a new system for changing formation, but that shouldn't be too hard if you really wanted to...

[Scillion 0]

I will amit that the facts of the game seem to be American's teaching their tactics to another country. So the request for American tactics makes perfect since. But if the game design allowed for use of any country's tactics (even if only by script) then that would solve the argument.

I think I will be satisfied with whatever BIS comes up with. I've not had problems with OFP's system, so if AA is better it should be fine.

(Read your history, the Spartans were the best trained units of all time - lol but they didn't have tanks )

[ebns72 0]

I think it would make sense to put default american tactics into the game - but make it moddable.

Considering in the SP campaign you will be playing as the americans, it makes sense.

Or, BIS could "generalize" some tactics such as simple supress and flanks. The player could be flexible and choose how he wants to execute these tactics.

[ran 0]

And as it seems people don't know this, custom formations IS available in OFP, and have been for quite some time. General Barron made a custom formation script which allows you to create your own formations. Of course, you would have to set up a new system for changing formation, but that shouldn't be too hard if you really wanted to...

From what I recall and if I don't confuse it with something else it was based on radio scripts and was relatively ressource hungry, am I wrong ?

[Spyder001 1]

If I insulted anyone one in anyway, shape, or form, or knocked anyone country down, which I would never try to do, sorry. i just posted what I wanted and was hopeing for a good discussion. Of course, like all debates it turns into a flaming fest. Oh, and yes, the word "other" is a word that doesn't apply to every US citizen nor the majority even.

And, to ryankaplan, thanks bud. You actually read what I said. I won't go into you saying th brits were better though. (Don't start another argument Spyder) So we will have to agree to disagree on who is better trained.

[ran 0]

While accusing him of 'high floating' you are claiming that the finnish are one of the best forces in europe...i smell contradiction.

Where did I contradict myself ? I'm not a Finn and you have to agree that historically, they've shown a great deal of efficiency facing the reds.

Quote[/b] ]And, US army is the best in the world, if you consider all aspects of war making. They may not be the best in individual aspects however (cockyness, recruitment of idiots into the army, a twat leading them), but your 125 Leopards 'who are fighting with their heart' arent going to help you when 11000 Abrams tanks start rolling down you countryside.

OT, and quite a few people would tend to disagree and sheer numbers aren't the only factor that counts, but this is another whole discussion.

Quote[/b] ]Getting a bit offtopic here, but lets keep the anti-americanism down to non-stupid levels.

If I've shown any anti-americanism, I'm sorry about that. I would have jumped the same on any fanboy, no matter which nation he is from.

Quote[/b] ]If not a 'no formation' formation is essantial. Also, the 'colour teams' i designate, should form thier own formation, rather than stick with the squad formations. Eg, if you order '2,3,6,12 are team red''team red go to that tree' while your squad is in line formations, red team will line up like this:

O O O O

rather than

O O O O

This makes sense and is actually constructive as mission builders don't always bother setting up units in a squad in a sensible order and even then, this particular order wouldn't suit all people, so I'm all for this. And as you said the option to assign a formation to team would also come in handy in certain circumstances.

[Spyder001 1]

Would custom formations require people to download something, that wouldn't be cool.

[Second 0]

Would custom formations require people to download something, that wouldn't be cool.

No if that would be build in-game. And i don't know how addon version of it would work in MP. Can it be too hard thing to hard-code it in ArmA at this stage. How could it be available to players, would it be in option menu? would there be something like 60x60 grid, where you mark soldier's number and position?

[Garcia 0]

And as it seems people don't know this, custom formations IS available in OFP, and have been for quite some time. General Barron made a custom formation script which allows you to create your own formations. Of course, you would have to set up a new system for changing formation, but that shouldn't be too hard if you really wanted to...

From what I recall and if I don't confuse it with something else it was based on radio scripts and was relatively ressource hungry, am I wrong ?

Early versions may have been, but if you try out General Barrons hand signal system, it uses custom formation, but I don't notice any problems with it bumping my FPS down or something.

Quote[/b] ]Would custom formations require people to download something, that wouldn't be cool.

It requires the mission maker to download the script and implement it into the mission. Nothing more than that.

Quote[/b] ]And i don't know how addon version of it would work in MP.

Addons are much better than scripts when it comes to multiplayer. Therefor it would be likely that a addonversion of a custom formation system would be better as a addon...

[scary 0]

I won't go into you saying th brits were better though. (Don't start another argument Spyder) So we will have to agree to disagree on who is better trained.

The British are better trained. There is nothing to argue about in that, it is a fact.

The US military is built around superior logistics and overwhelming the enemy. The British military is built around individual skills and dominating the enemy.

Doctrine requires that the British emphasis is on training.

Anyway, back on topic.

I think what is needed is a more flexible formation system. Rather than each unit being laser-aligned they should choose the best possible position within an x-metre radius. The capability of being able to specify spacing would be very useful.

To me, the most useful addition would be a 'hold formation' option whereby once units have been manually positioned it could be selected and as you move, the units move according to those manually defined positions - still using the x-metre radius principle, of course. On the fly custom formations, and much less likely to get you killed than lots of 'advance', 'stop' commands.

[Spyder001 1]

Yeah, well like someone said, customizable formations would be tight. The only problem would be having to download something. I hope it just auto downloads or is set so its just a server-side mod.

But the US does focus on tactics and marksmenship alot. I can't speak for the British because I haven't looked at any of their doctorines nor do I know any british soldiers. I can say the the US values training, especially special forces. US Navy SEALs have the toughest military training in the world and work in 2-16 man teams.

[frederf 0]

What's this malarkey about download formations? Do you realize you could transfer the info it takes to have a custom formation of.. I dunno.. 100 guys' reletive position to leader, plus some sector data and have it all download in what... one second?

Guy 1: x coordinate, y coordinate

Guy 2: x coordinate, y coordinate

.... ten more

Oh yeah, that's gunna be HOURS to download pppsh.

[Spyder001 1]

lol, i'm not talking about that. I'm talking about having to go to a website, looking for the damn thing, then having to download it. It wouldn't take that long but it would be a hassle. I jjust said it would be better if it was a server side mod.

[Garcia 0]

lol, i'm not talking about that. I'm talking about having to go to a website, looking for the damn thing, then having to download it. It wouldn't take that long but it would be a hassle. I jjust said it would be better if it was a server side mod.

Quote[/b] ]It requires the mission maker to download the script and implement it into the mission. Nothing more than that.

Which means, all the stuff you need will be added in the mission. However, you have to edit the mission to create your own custom formation. Though, seeing that certain people here really really wants custom formation, it shouldn't be too much work making their own mission, and therefor being able to make their own custom formation, or even edit an existing mission to add the custom formation.

[Second 0]

I was, and still am, just wondering one thing.

Did formation have effect to behaviour of AI in OFP...

Like line and column, did AI behave same kind in both? Were their "tactics" always the same in combat without formation affecting to actions taken... I was just thinking that usefulness of custom formations in ArmA... If i could create "withdraw" formation (to be used by non-player squads), which says how they have to or should behave: Like rushes backwards as nearest buddy is covering, as in OFP withdrawing meant pretty surely lots of dead-dead-dead... I don't see point in this custom formation thing if AI uses still same "tactics" as always.

Yes this is just one of those wishful thinking replys... Santa is dead, and this one is dead too

[dmarkwick 261]

I was, and still am, just wondering one thing.

Did formation have effect to behaviour of AI in OFP...

As far as I can tell, the only effect is of visual cover, so that you can make sure the guys are looking in the direction(s) you need them to.

Also, last night I noticed that the formations in the ECP mod do indeed fill in the gaps. So it can be done with a script/addon.