Compressed PBO's

[UpRight 0]

I'm interested to know...

Does compressed addons have better game performance than uncompressed addons? If I compress my PBO files using "Make PBO" program. (It takes little longer to make PBO files.) Will it make those addons "run smoother" in game?

[.kju 3245]

don't compress your addons at all !

there is no absolute proof, but people came to the conclusion that its better uncompressed.

this is because the ofp engine needs to decompress them otherwise.

as for download size compressing your addon with rar gives even better results !

there quite a few threads about this topic. so if you arent satisfied with this answer, do some search in o2 sub-forum or configs sub-forum.

[Messiah 2]

i'd argue that no one on these forums should tell you whether to or not to compress your addons. There are arguments both for and against compression, some are more factual, and some are theoretical since no1's come up with any conclusive evidence as yet.

For:

Smaller file size to download

Smaller file size for flashpoint to load

Against:

Theoretically worsens performance because flashpoint has to un-compress them.

each to their own at the end of the day, i've alway been pro compression because it makes a 50mb pbo into a 15mb pbo - whatever the performance hits, if any, it cant argue with that

[vektorboson 8]

Quote[/b] ]

Smaller file size to download

That's not correct.

1. You should RAR-compress a compressed PBO and you should RAR-compress an uncompressed PBO. Most of the time, the uncompressed PBOs will come out much better. It's a fact that already compressed data is harder to compress. Just try to ZIP and then RAR and then ZIP and then RAR a file. And look at the resulting file size.

2. Most of the textures are already using compression internally (some the same as PBOs). In some cases the resulting compressed size is bigger than the original file itself. (open some compressed PBOs with WinPBO, you'll find sometimes textures that are 117% (worst case is 125%) of the original size!

Quote[/b] ]

Smaller file size for flashpoint to load

The physical file size is smaller, yes. But the logical file size is more than twice as big, as you have to reserve memory to decompress the file.

Quote[/b] ]

Theoretically worsens performance because flashpoint has to un-compress them.

That's not theoretically because they have to be decompressed. But once they are decompressed they stay decompressed in memory, so it does not really effect performance at all. All it affects is loading time. (and when loading a model+textures at mission time it does effect performance)

Quote[/b] ]

each to their own at the end of the day, i've alway been pro compression because it makes a 50mb pbo into a 15mb pbo - whatever the performance hits, if any, it cant argue with that  

That's the only Pro-argument I can think of: Smaller file size on the hard drive.

And it seems with todays hard drive capacities and DVD-burners hard drive shouldn't be a problem at all.

[Messiah 2]

meh, im talking from my experiences, which are of course all totally my opinion - thanks for the clarification though

agreed on the large HD's, but considering have a gig of addons or so, imagine if there werent compressed

[.kju 3245]

most good addons arent compressed.

[Messiah 2]

i dont see how you can say that compressing your addon makes it worse than one that isnt

so, if i were to compress my addon, and release a version which is compressed and uncompressed, using what you've just said, would make the uncompressed one better? No, its the same addon, compression has done nothing to change how poor or good it is.

its personal preference Upright, and entirely up to you at the end of the day - i dont think there's much reason to worry which choice you make.

[SWIFT88 0]

lol ok... Download the UKF warrior PBO and check the pbo size... then De-compress it and See how much of a larger file it is!

Same with other UKF items. The  size of the PBO could be nearly twice the size it would be if it wasnt compressed

[sanctuary 19]

I made a little experiment with the T80 RHS pack , to show how interesting it is to uncompress addons when it comes to download-upload

I repost it there, as it fits the subject :

Quote[/b] ]1- make a .rar file that contains the follwoing compressed pbo :

-RHS_Misc.pbo 6,16mo

-RHS_T80.pbo 18,9mo

-RHS_T80Pack_Scripts.pbo 17,4 ko

so the same as the current RHS_T80 release :

winrar File size (max compression) : 15,6mo

i make a .rar file that contains the follwoing uncompressed pbo :

-RHS_Misc.pbo 6,16mo

-RHS_T80.pbo 27,5mo

-RHS_T80Pack_Scripts.pbo 44,9 ko

winrar File size (max compression) : 12,2mo

So it is false argument that says that compressed pbo makes things easier for download/upload, as the result after using a compression utility is a bigger files.

and that's why i totally agree with vektorboson

Quote[/b] ]the only Pro-argument I can think of: Smaller file size on the hard drive.

And it seems with todays hard drive capacities and DVD-burners hard drive shouldn't be a problem at all.

When you don't have a small hardrive, all other results seem to point out that uncompressed pbo is the better choice.

[.kju 3245]

Messiah you may read my words twice.

i didnt say that the compression makes an addon good or bad ..

[Messiah 2]

perhaps, but it came off like that.

sancturary - but thats the case of one addon, others do not rar/zip as well when uncompressed - its entirely down to every addon in each case.

out of curiosity - the load limit of flashpoint addons is down to memory and how much it uses to load a certain number of addons - has anyone experimented if uncompressed or compressed pbo's allow more or less addons to be loaded in either case? That would be an interesting and useful indicator if compression or non compression is the best option?

whereas HD sizes are getting bigger, there is a limit to how much flashpoint can handle, hence perhaps the compressed pbo's allow more to be loaded, or vie versa given the work the game needs to do to uncompress them.

thoughts?

[sanctuary 19]

sancturary - but thats the case of one addon, others do not rar/zip as well when uncompressed - its entirely down to every addon in each case.

Actually, all the DMA addons (and animations pbo) are always released uncompressed , but compressed by winrar in maximum.

As i am the one that upload all of this and as i don't have a "super fast" connection, the size of the file i upload count a lot as it takes over my free time to wait for the upload being complete.

That's why i always test, for the dma releases, the compress/uncompress procedure to see what will end into the smallest archive, and so far none of the pbo i uploaded were smaller when using compressed pbo + max winrar compression.

Of course, it might exists some exception, but so far i have not met one.

Quote[/b] ]

out of curiosity - the load limit of flashpoint addons is down to memory and how much it uses to load a certain number of addons - has anyone experimented if uncompressed or compressed pbo's allow more or less addons to be loaded in either case? That would be an interesting and useful indicator if compression or non compression is the best option?

whereas HD sizes are getting bigger, there is a limit to how much flashpoint can handle, hence perhaps the compressed pbo's allow more to be loaded, or vie versa given the work the game needs to do to uncompress them.

thoughts?

If OFP has to uncompress pbo to use the files, in the end , the exact same result will be loaded into the memory in any ways, so even if OFP "accepts" a small bit more, the performance impact should be the same once loading/uncompression is complete.

But when using a compressed pbo, you have to add the extra-calculations and uncompress process OFP must run in the background to the already calculation OFP must do when loading each addons scripts and missions stuffs.

And despite once all is finished loading the difference should be unexistant performance-wise, in term of loading time you should see the difference (on some of my mod folders, i can clearly count several seconds between mods with lot of uncompressed addons and mods filders with compressed ones).

But your question is interesting anyways, as should nomap (and as BIS said , despite allowing more to be loaded, nomap is less effective for OFP performance) be used earlier to load tons of uncompressed or earlier to load tons of compressed pbo, that's a question that would be interesting to see answered.

I remember to have read from BIS that using jpg textures (that are compressed files) was a bad idea, as OFP uncompressed the jpg (and so you ended with something like the size of a bmp in the memory), while pac/paa that are using another kind of compression were loaded like this , and unlike jpg were never uncompressed.

It would have been really great, if everything that was into a compressed pbo would be read and used like this by OFP, without any uncompression.

This way you would have the better choice : compression.

But like it is actually, i continue to think it is better to get things uncompressed, at least in my point of view for the upload/download.

[Messiah 2]

each to their own at the end of the day - i'll experiment my end with my current addons and see the results - i always just felt that downloading an addon thats 50mb, compared to the same at 15mb was a little 'scary' for some users.

on top of that, you have to factor in dedicated servers, where the pbo itself needs to be uploaded onto the server, hence the compressed ones take less time to upload - and many servers have a limit on space and uploads etc - hence a compressed pbo would be lower on both counts?

wahey, one deffinate positive to compression (i think)

[.kju 3245]

well depends. you can transfer addons to a server also as a rar or zip file (and you better do it this way).

server up/down is most time far higher than any user connection. in addition most dedicated server come with 100+ GB of HD space.

[vektorboson 8]

each to their own at the end of the day - i'll experiment my end with my current addons and see the results - i always just felt that downloading an addon thats 50mb, compared to the same at 15mb was a little 'scary' for some users.

Try it with your Mod's UKF_WMIK.pbo. First take a look with WinPBO at the PBO, it shows nicely how much percent of the original file size every file is.

1. You will notice that almost every second texture in the PBO is bigger than the original file. Now, that's some nice "compression".

2. Compress the compressed UKF_WMIK.pbo, then compress the uncompressed UKF_WMIK.pbo.

Results for me (WinRAR, best compression):

Compressed PBO: 17.3 MB

Uncompressed PBO: 15.5 MB

And as Q said already: You can upload the RAR/Zip to your server and extract it on the server.

Other thing:

Why are you so obsessed with hard drive space? I think memory is much more important (last time I checked, memory was more expensive than hard disk space).

You have to remember, when it comes to memory usage, the size of the uncompressed PBO is, what will be in your memory when your addon is used (of course that's not 100% correct, that's only if all models from the PBO are used).

So the only true way to reduce file size, memory footprint and increase performance is: Reduce texture size, reduce poly/vertex count, reduce sound size.

But it seems that this is not accepted by the community, due to combat photography thread or graphic "whores".  

[Messiah 2]

i never knew that rar's could be uploaded to a server and extracted, hence why i said that - that should speed up uploads from now on

im not obssesed, just concerned mainly for the fact that my pc uses 3 HD's, 2x 40 1x 60 - windows is on a 40 drive and so is flashpoint - coupled with the rest of the games i have, i'm running out of room, hence why i prefer small pbo's - memory is pretty cheap as well now a days though.

[ag_smith 0]

Quote[/b] ]they have filled the midst of thee with compression, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of OFP: and I will destroy thee (...) from the midst of the stones of fire

I've always known the compression is the source of evil.

[Messiah 2]