Franze & NodUnit Present...

[xnodunitx 0]

Sort of,problem is its not as easy to make a pack when the textures aren't already made ,Inquisitor for the desert camo http://ofp.gamezone.cz/index.p....page=18 (scroll down) ,BOH that made the modified D,Helifreak that made the black textures http://ofp.gamezone.cz/index.php?showthis=5519 and Silesian that made the modified olive drab http://ofp.gamezone.cz/index.php?showthis=4539

I have future plans for the helicopters with different camo

sets,woodland,urban,and so on.

But currently the apache set is....a ways down the list

Usually what you see as a black apache is either overshadowing or worn paint but I'v always had an interest in black helicopters,I'm gonna make a black longbow with bloody teeth and red eyes on the side,not sure if the community would want my personal longbow though

OH-58D

UH-60

MLRS

HIMARS

CH-47 (depending upon weather Franze wants to make one or not) and others I can't really tell you guys about

[Baz 0]

I just noticed a very large frame rate drop when using your units... Using the MPIV AH's I get about 100 FPS using yours I get about 30 FPS and in the demo missions I get 20 and below FPS. There is something causing the FPS to drop dramatically... I tested on the desert airfied at Nogovo. Please fix this issues if you do then the gameplay will increase dramatically.

[gatordev 218]

@Franze:

It's your guys' addon, so ignore as appropriate, but one comment on the yaw rate/maneuverability of the -58. While it's yaw rate may be very high, and the platform very manueverable, part of the problem w/ the "JetRanger" line is torque. If you get that yaw rate going, you have to stop it, and to stop it requires a lot of power from the transmission (which requires Tq). So if you stomp on the left pedal to stop a right yaw rate, you can easily overtorque the aircraft. This is a huge issue w/ the B206. I don't know how much they beefed up the transmission in the -58, and your dad can probably give a better idea, but I'm betting it's still a concern, especially as heavy as they are w/ all the electronics gear.

So how does all that real life mumbo jumbo relate to OFP? Well, I only bring it up because OFP can make certain realistic values of a helo excessive in game. But hey, it's not a flight simulator, so we deal w/ it. But if you made the values contain more of a yaw rate than the BAS LBs in game, then I personally think it's too much. The BAS Kiowa felt right to me, FWIW. But again, it's your addon, so do what you want.

Regardless, it's looking great. I enjoy your guys' Apache and look forward to this update on the Kiowa. Thanks for continuing to help make OFP a better game.

[xnodunitx 0]

I just noticed a very large frame rate drop when using your units... Using the MPIV AH's I get about 100 FPS using yours I get about 30 FPS and in the demo missions I get 20 and below FPS. There is something causing the FPS to drop dramatically... I tested on the desert airfied at Nogovo. Please fix this issues if you do then the gameplay will increase dramatically.

It's also much less complicated in terms of texture amount/sizes,model and scripts,I could give a complete description of the differences but people would think I would be ragging on MPIV's set.

Were still not quite sure as to why people are having issues,first I thought of it being a problem with the textures but Franze has a geforce3 and a friend of his that we test a geforce2,had that been the case their cards would'v been eaten alive.

I'm not quite sure what you mean Gatordev so I'll let Franze take care of that,all I can comment on its handling now is well....its very agile...fast and "sudden" when you hit on the breaks theres no 5 second delay it just immediatly springs up and stops,the only issue less experienced pilots are going to find I would guess is flipping it,if you turn and give it too much power and a sudden sharp turn you can flip it (fun to do spins in the air nose down,easy to pull up too)

I remember one practice round I took a turn too sharp,flipped it once and gave it too much power again flipped again but managed to pull up before I hit a forest canopy.

[meyamoti 0]

what about terms in running? Should I expect it to be similar to the apache?

[xnodunitx 0]

The Kiowa is rather different,for one it can't take many (if any) stinger rounds,as in real life it was mostly made for a scout aircraft its not a real strong helicopter,very maneuverable though,its speed and detection is greater than that of the apache (this is comparing the sets).

In terms of running such as fps I should hope not,its much less complicated in terms of texturing,for isntance the apache had 8+ textures to make up the main body+the round tail part,whereas the kiowa only has 3 textures and their much smaller,it also has a much lower face count,all in all I would expect it to run much better.

[franze 196]

Quote[/b] ]

I just noticed a very large frame rate drop when using your units... Using the MPIV AH's I get about 100 FPS using yours I get about 30 FPS and in the demo missions I get 20 and below FPS. There is something causing the FPS to drop dramatically... I tested on the desert airfied at Nogovo. Please fix this issues if you do then the gameplay will increase dramatically.

Ok, everyone take notice of this, IF you encounter lag or extreme FPS with the use of the aircraft, DO NOT come by with a simple "it lags." If you get FPS loss while using it, I need this information:

- Your computer's specification (GPU, CPU, memory amount, HDD space)

- Any replacement units/mods you're using with OFP

I simply cannot duplicate this issue *anywhere* and when you come by with a simple "it lags" with no other information, it makes it very difficult to isolate the issue. I'm sorry I can't help you out more but this is really starting to make me frustrated since I can't duplicate the issue.

Quote[/b] ]

It's your guys' addon, so ignore as appropriate, but one comment on the yaw rate/maneuverability of the -58. While it's yaw rate may be very high, and the platform very manueverable, part of the problem w/ the "JetRanger" line is torque. If you get that yaw rate going, you have to stop it, and to stop it requires a lot of power from the transmission (which requires Tq). So if you stomp on the left pedal to stop a right yaw rate, you can easily overtorque the aircraft. This is a huge issue w/ the B206. I don't know how much they beefed up the transmission in the -58, and your dad can probably give a better idea, but I'm betting it's still a concern, especially as heavy as they are w/ all the electronics gear.

I think thats a little beyond what we can do with OFP's limited helicopter physics engine. Since the OH-58D has a lot of differences from the JetRanger line, I'm not really sure if such a issue still remains with the OH-58D. But in any case it's still beyond what I think we're willing to do.

Quote[/b] ]

So how does all that real life mumbo jumbo relate to OFP? Well, I only bring it up because OFP can make certain realistic values of a helo excessive in game. But hey, it's not a flight simulator, so we deal w/ it. But if you made the values contain more of a yaw rate than the BAS LBs in game, then I personally think it's too much. The BAS Kiowa felt right to me, FWIW. But again, it's your addon, so do what you want.

For a better comparison, the OH-58 next to the AH-64 we have, the OH-58 maintains about a 50-75% yaw advantage over the AH-64. The BIS OH-58 really handled like a cow IMO.

It's been a while since I flew the BAS LBs so I'd have to make a collective comparison between the two. They might be similar or identical in maneuverability since I last checked.

Of course as usual this all depends on what your personal preference is. I don't like flying pigs.

Quote[/b] ]

what about terms in running? Should I expect it to be similar to the apache?

Comparing the Kiowa to the Apache, the Kiowa makes a much better scout aircraft. The Apache, as you know, is huge and takes a bit to get going. The Kiowa can accelerate and decelerate pretty quickly, as well as hide in some pretty tight spaces. There was one game where I took a Kiowa and hid behind a building not much taller than the helicopter and harassed a few T-80s moving up the road. It disturbed them enough that the broke formation and got into the AH-64's line of sight. I don't think they got a chance to regret that mistake.

[Baz 0]

Quote[/b] ]

I just noticed a very large frame rate drop when using your units... Using the MPIV AH's I get about 100 FPS using yours I get about 30 FPS and in the demo missions I get 20 and below FPS. There is something causing the FPS to drop dramatically... I tested on the desert airfied at Nogovo. Please fix this issues if you do then the gameplay will increase dramatically.

Ok, everyone take notice of this, IF you encounter lag or extreme FPS with the use of the aircraft, DO NOT come by with a simple "it lags." If you get FPS loss while using it, I need this information:

- Your computer's specification (GPU, CPU, memory amount, HDD space)

- Any replacement units/mods you're using with OFP

I simply cannot duplicate this issue *anywhere* and when you come by with a simple "it lags" with no other information, it makes it very difficult to isolate the issue. I'm sorry I can't help you out more but this is really starting to make me frustrated since I can't duplicate the issue.

well I have a P4 3.0 Ghz

Geforece 6800 Gt

1024 RAM

more than 100 gig of HDD space

no mods or replacement units used.

I tried playing with the MPIV AH under the same conditions and I had a FPS of 100

I tried playing with your AH and I get a FPS of 30, and in the demo missions it is unplayable becasue of the FPS issue.

[Katar 0]

I just noticed a very large frame rate drop when using your units... Using the MPIV AH's I get about 100 FPS using yours I get about 30 FPS and in the demo missions I get 20 and below FPS. There is something causing the FPS to drop dramatically... I tested on the desert airfied at Nogovo. Please fix this issues if you do then the gameplay will increase dramatically.

Depents on what scipts you are using and how many AH-64s you have in the game at one time. If You use a GeForce 2 or 3, I would not recommend more than 8 to 10 at one time (Which is what I can accomplish at 1152 x 864). You should also disable the dust script.

[Baz 0]

I just noticed a very large frame rate drop when using your units... Using the MPIV AH's I get about 100 FPS using yours I get about 30 FPS and in the demo missions I get 20 and below FPS. There is something causing the FPS to drop dramatically... I tested on the desert airfied at Nogovo. Please fix this issues if you do then the gameplay will increase dramatically.

Depents on what scipts you are using and how many AH-64s you have in the game at one time. If You use a GeForce 2 or 3, I would not recommend more than 8 to 10 at one time (Which is what I can accomplish at 1152 x 864). You should also disable the dust script.

how about this. No scripts besides the AH ones that are loaded when you place the unit in the editor... No other units on the map except for the AH and to top that off, being at an airport in the desert and having a viewdistance of 750. Now everything I tested points towards the AH-64. I even used the MPIV AH-64 and had a FPS of 100. So something is hogging FPS on the AH, maybe its a script... model... texture... I don't know.

[Katar 0]

The dust script and flare script should be disabled if you are having problems. I belive it was "fz_dust=0" or somthing like that (forgot the command for disabling flares). Other than that, dunno whats going on.

[xnodunitx 0]

how about this. No scripts besides the AH ones that are loaded when you place the unit in the editor... No other units on the map except for the AH and to top that off, being at an airport in the desert and having a viewdistance of 750. Now everything I tested points towards the AH-64. I even used the MPIV AH-64 and had a FPS of 100. So something is hogging FPS on the AH, maybe its a script... model... texture... I don't know.

hmm...I dont know what to say because I have a radeon 9600 pro,FFUR/Y2K3/ECP (different things running whenever I choose) with dxdll and llaumax skies and I get around 30 fps,then again in bf2 i get around 40,not quite sure what is doing this.

if it were the model then the six+ we tested together would'v lagged us to death,textures well would have fried Franze's video card,scripts well those I have no knowledge of to be honest.

[franze 196]

I'm sorry Baz, but there's nothing I can do for your problem. With your specifications, you should have no problem at all running the helicopter.

Try this command in the init field: fz_ah64scripts = 0 - it disables all the scripted features on the helicopter. If that doesn't do anything for you, then I'd know it isn't a scripting issue.

[xnodunitx 0]

yeah but without the scripts ya might as well ignore the MFD's.....wait would that get rid of dynamic arming too?

[franze 196]

fz_ah64scripts = 0 disables *all* scripted features - arming, MFD functions, everything.

[Baz 0]

I just tried that command... Instatly got to 100 FPS.... There's a script in the AH that is causing FPS loss of great magnituide.

[xnodunitx 0]

Hmm....after the Kiowa release we'll look into it,just hope its not the dynamic arming.

[Baz 0]

don't you think its kinda important to try to solve this issue ASAp? I mean going from 100 FPS down to 30 should not be a normal occurance of FPS drop assosiated with highpoly models / textures... Etc. Its a script thats doing that.

[xnodunitx 0]

Theres and up and down to this,the Kiowa will contain similar things,once thats released were going to wait awhile and examine the results and see if it too lags,then we will look into it,if pace continues the Kiowa may be out in a few weeks or less.

If it doesn't then depending how things go the apache may or may not move higher on our "to do" list.

If were going to have this fixed then I'm also wanting to get upgraded textures for the apache.

[Baz 0]

Here's another thing... It might not just be with the AH-64's but it is possible that your OPFOR aircraft that use such scripts and your MANPADS and etc. Might also cause FPS drop. I think you guys should look into this as soon as you can. I wouldn't release the Kiowas knowing that it will cause such a large FPS drop. Instead, what I would do is try to figure out whats causing the FPS drop. After doing that.... Fix it and then implement the fix on the AH-64's and the Kiowas. Then depending on the progress of the Kiowas I would release both the Kiowas and the AH-64's at the same time. Also I know you guys had your own pilots in the AH's, but are you planning on using the LSR pilots that were just newly released? For future versions of your AH's and for your kiowas. The pilots are very nice, if you haven't tried them out yet I suggest that you do... You're missing out if you don't.

[xnodunitx 0]

Relating to the pilots,Doubtful or Kyle will throw a fit,he already did so in lasers thread in the discussion. Problem about the FPS thing is that neither I,Franze nor his friend can seem to duplicate the FPS drop thing,maybe if we could find somebody who is having issues that we could actually TRUST,not judge our work but only to see if we can't get the fps issue fixed.

[gatordev 218]

@Franze:

By no means did I mean for all the technical talk to get modeled in OFP. Please don't think I was asking you to build the super-realistic helicopter in a game that can't figure out collision detection. I was merely stating some of the specs to demonstrate that I wasn't just making up stuff on how I "think" it should be.

For example, your assumption that the Kiowa can out-accelerate the Apache I think may be a bit flawed. Heck, I could get a fat pig of a H-60 (at about 20,000 lbs) to 80 knots a lot faster than I could w/ a 206, IRL. And the Apache is much lighter and has stronger engines. Sure the Kiowa has a stronger engine and an extra two blades compared to the B206, but it's a lot heavier, as well (2300 lbs heavier when armed). And its top speed is only an extra 15 knots faster than the B206, which struggles to hold its top speed on a hot day.

Again, please don't mistake this as putting down your addon or saying it's all jacked up. Within the limits of OFP, I'm sure it will still be plenty of fun and I look forward to it. I'm just putting more info out there for discussion.

[xnodunitx 0]

Hmmm....interesting....Also to those worried about the bug Franze,Hellfire (our tester) and I are going to go through deactivating scripts until we can find the issue,problem is we can't currently et the same effect (my fraps always shows a solid 20 or so fps in ofp for some reason @.@) so one of you may be called on,this may not happen but if we cannot duplicate the issue we may call on a volunteer that we can trust.

[franze 196]

Quote[/b] ]

I just tried that command... Instatly got to 100 FPS.... There's a script in the AH that is causing FPS loss of great magnituide.

Now that helps a lot. Try these commands, they'll help isolate the issue even further:

fz_ah64rtrwash = 0 - turns off rotor wash

fz_ah64arming = 0 - turns off dynamic arming

If neither of them helps like fz_ah64scripts did, let me know.

Quote[/b] ]

Here's another thing... It might not just be with the AH-64's but it is possible that your OPFOR aircraft that use such scripts and your MANPADS and etc. Might also cause FPS drop. I think you guys should look into this as soon as you can. I wouldn't release the Kiowas knowing that it will cause such a large FPS drop. Instead, what I would do is try to figure out whats causing the FPS drop.

OPFOR aircraft and units have no scripts attached, they only have replaced weapons.

As has been said, its a very erratic issue. As the Kiowa isn't nearly as complex of a aircraft then it's doubtful the issue remains on it. Nodunit didn't make the scripts for either aircraft so he doesn't really know what he's talking about.  

Try the commands I wrote above if you don't mind, then that at the very least will give me a hand in correcting this issue, even if I have a pain in the butt of a time duplicating it. Since the AH-64 scripting as of 1.3 are contained in a separate pbo file, updating it should be a snap. The problem still remains about figuring what's causing the issue, however.

Quote[/b] ]

Also I know you guys had your own pilots in the AH's, but are you planning on using the LSR pilots that were just newly released? For future versions of your AH's and for your kiowas. The pilots are very nice, if you haven't tried them out yet I suggest that you do... You're missing out if you don't.

No, we can't use Lasers pilots due to some issues (NOT addon related), so you'll have to use them separately in missions. If Laser gives us permission (and I don't think we'll ask due to that issue) then we might do it.

@gatordev

I did a more collective comparison between the BAS LBs and our Kiowa, and the handling is pretty much similar. The only big difference is the Kiowa tends to get better cyclic control over the LBs, with probably a realm of about 20% better yaw.

I don't know that the Kiowa can out accelerate the AH-64, what I'm saying is the one we have can out accelerate our AH-64. When the AH-64 gets up to speed it can outrun the Kiowa, but the Kiowa generally gets a much better running start. I haven't flown either type so all I can go by is by the information out there in regards how to model it, and how I feel it should be done.

EDIT: Here's the system specs that us three have, for comparison if you have issues w/ the AH-64 (Hellfire, Me and Nodunit):

Me:

Windows XP

AMD XP clocked @ 2.2ghz

PC3200 @ 200mhz, 1024 megs

3 year old GeForce 3 w/ 128 megs

A 10 gig HDD and a 40 gig HDD

Nodunit:

Windows XP

P4 2.3ghz

Radeon 9600 pro

2048 megs of RAM

80 gig HDD

Hellfire (main tester):

Windows XP

P4 2.8GHZ

GeForce 4MX

1024MB of PC3200 RAM

40GB HDD

[xnodunitx 0]

Almost have the dominating specs,rats *snaps fingers*.

Nope crug no know what script talk be,crug go away now