Idea of inaccurate fire.

[void_false 1]

Hi people!

I was thinking about it for a long time. And finally decided to write a message.

When you aim with M16 for example you need your front sight to be in the middle of a aim rod. Your hands shake. Well, we have it already. But what about moving front sight up/down/left/right

IMHO it will be uber realistic if we have this implemented ingame.

[DBR_ONIX 0]

With the 2D optics, that's all that's possible. But if OFP allows either a nice animaiton system (A selective one, where you can tell it to only animate that arm, that arm, and the rifle, say), you could move the weapon model up to eye level

Or go like Brothers in Arms have have a seperate 3D scope model

- Ben

[Baphomet 0]

I have mentioned this many, many, many, many (to the power of 100) times before.

I have as of the last year and a half had been exposed to the experience of firing a wide variety of firearms. What OFP needs now is take that vection based aiming system to a new level and simulate human error even more accurately. As it stands. It's pretty ridiculous that you can just crack off 300/400m shots as if they were nothing.

Yes. There is an up/down left/right wobble when holding a gun. As far as full auto fire goes, if you've ever fired a fully automatic weapon. When you've supported the weapon from moving back any further while it's firing... the next thing it wants to do instead of climb is move to the side. Then you try compensating for it and it's not at all uncommon (in cases where weapons are unfixed or unbraced on something, ie: standing up... or even crouching with your support arm's elbow resting on your your knee... or something else... etc) for the gun to slightly drift (by slightly I mean by visual standards it's not much, but an inch of movement accounts for yards of inaccuracy at longer ranges) back to the other side and erratically so on and so forth. The more forceful the recoil, the more it wants to do this.

More experienced shooters I have seen... deal with this better. But the average guy will always have that trademark (if I can't recoil up... I'm going to sway sideways) weapon behavior.

One of the greatest things about OFP is the vection based aiming system, instead of some abyssmally inaccurate expanding ring system. I cannot ever say that enough.

However I think I would like to see inaccuracy modeled, but instead of picking a random vector within an expanding circle, do it right. Simulate the human movement and point of origin on the weapon that actually made the bullet fly off in that direction. Not just leave it to random number generation. That's lazy.

Anyhow. Iron sights. With a 2d system, that's impossible. However even with 3d iron sights, as most people have lauded as being vastly superior, are no better than 2d sights because as you mentioned Void_false. YOU DON'T LINE UP THE SIGHTS YOURSELF. They're pre-configured to be always lined up. Even if say the game does it for you, and simulates the time it takes to hold the gun up to your shoulder and hold it steady and proper. That would be fine. Then you could just scale it as an integer based on the skill of the unit. More skilled units take less time, less inefficient compensation for wobbly weapon handling.

However I'm digressing. One of the critically and commercially worst games made, was Dreamworks' Trespasser. In that, when you moved your gun around (albeit unrealistically with one hand missing) there was a realistic weight to the gun that made it move about and sort of waver before going properly into place, as a real weapon if handled that way would. You could also again, use REAL IRONSIGHTS and adjust your gun on X,Y,Z axes to get the sights the way you wanted them, and when you put the gun away and brought it back out, the computer would remember and go through the actions of bringing out the weapon and putting it in that position again. However albeit not instantaneously as we have it in OFP where you press V and get iron sights instantly.

As you can see. I'm a die hard proponent of such a thing. Sadly. I think any basic framework for OFP that has already been laid will determine what kind of ballistics and weapon handling system we get. Still. It's nice to see there's other people out there who agree with my crazy notions of what OFP 2 (or any military shooter) should be like.

[FatNinjaKid 0]

I think one reason is that BIS and most addon makers define the recoils in such a way that the ironsight automaticly falls back EXACTLY into the same place as before shooting. If the recoil was more random and you would have to adjust for just a few inches after each shot the feeling would be more realistic.

Being able to "draw" an m16 on a 200m target while constantly firing in burst mode is really ridiculous.

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think one reason is that BIS and most addon makers define the recoils in such a way that the ironsight automaticly falls back EXACTLY into the same place as before shooting. If the recoil was more random and you would have to adjust for just a few inches after each shot the feeling would be more realistic.

Being able to "draw" an m16 on a 200m target while constantly firing in burst mode is really ridiculous

Yeah, the whole "recoil that falls neatly back into place every time straight up and down" really needs to go. What needs to be simulated is the fact that there's a virtual human with virtual arms and virtual imperfections when handling weapons at play. The idea of shooting anything at a significant range "off-the-hip" for example from the default OFP weapon view. As opposed to iron sights, is just insane. So I'd propose, as before, simulating the handling of the weapon right up to the point where the gun is leveled and you look through your iron sights, instead of this light speed "press V for instant accuracy" type deal.

Unfortunately. The FDF method of recoil, where the gun falling back down below the reticle is flawed and if you crouch and shoot at the same time the gun will remain immobile except for the up/down movement of the player shifting positions, so it's like the gun has -no- recoil at all... So, it's something to hope that OFP2 will have spent just as much time fleshing out the weapons and ballistics as they have the graphics... Having discovered that. I shudder to think if it's been abused in multiplay on the internet.

[Goeth 0]

Unfortunately. The FDF method of recoil, where the gun falling back down below the reticle is flawed and if you crouch and shoot at the same time the gun will remain immobile except for the up/down movement of the player shifting positions, so it's like the gun has -no- recoil at all...

Well there´s something seriously wrong with you if you have to exploit it like that. . Anyways i have not seen anyone using that method and i have played a lot MP.

[stgn 39]

I think one reason is that BIS and most addon makers define the recoils in such a way that the ironsight automaticly falls back EXACTLY into the same place as before shooting. If the recoil was more random and you would have to adjust for just a few inches after each shot the feeling would be more realistic.

Being able to "draw" an m16 on a 200m target while constantly firing in burst mode is really ridiculous.

OFP automaticly returns to zero there is no way AFAIK to alter that. But I agree the very fast recoile which is in meany current addons, makes it very easy to repertebly fire well aimed shots as there realy is no recoile.

The way aimin is simulated to day if fairly good cause if you have a ferm grib on you rifle then the front and rear sights will stary aligned(almost) and up and down and sideways movement of the complete rifle thats a problem like in OFP. And by adding the dexterity command in the cpp you can make it even harder to hit. I will very soon release a Alpha addon showing how one could individualise his or her weapons.

STGN

[Denwad 0]

there used to be this really shitty game, don't remember what it was called, but it had 2d sprites for iron sights. The two sprites moved independent of each other and they shook around and stuff, and that was about the only cool thing about that game

that and it had the Stechkin APS pistol w/ wire stock

[void_false 1]

Quote[/b] ]but it had 2d sprites for iron sights. The two sprites moved independent of each other and they shook around and stuff, and that was about the only cool thing about that game

I want this in OFP2!!!

[DBR_ONIX 0]

Quote[/b] ]but it had 2d sprites for iron sights. The two sprites moved independent of each other and they shook around and stuff, and that was about the only cool thing about that game

I want this in OFP2!!!

Screw 3D sight models, I want that!!..

Quote[/b] ]OFP automaticly returns to zero there is no way AFAIK to alter that.

Not true, the recoil can be set for fast the auto-gets pulled down, so you can put this to 0 or 0.000000001, and it doesn't go down it's self

But I think if you move the mouse about, it will return, as the aiming point always trys to get to the mouse point (The "_| |_"-upside down thing )

But you can stop the MG etc from aiming down in OFP1

Random recoil would be nice.

Quote[/b] ]

The idea of shooting anything at a significant range "off-the-hip" for example from the default OFP weapon view. As opposed to iron sights, is just insane. So I'd propose, as before, simulating the handling of the weapon right up to the point where the gun is leveled and you look through your iron sights, instead of this light speed "press V for instant accuracy" type deal.

Try Sanctuary's animation pack, when can fire when running, but the bullets smack into your feet (Well into the gorund at your feet). With high-explosive ammo, it can be a little annoying at times though

- Ben

[stgn 39]

Quote[/b] ]but it had 2d sprites for iron sights. The two sprites moved independent of each other and they shook around and stuff, and that was about the only cool thing about that game

I want this in OFP2!!!  

Screw 3D sight models, I want that!!..

Quote[/b] ]OFP automaticly returns to zero there is no way AFAIK to alter that.

Not true, the recoil can be set for fast the auto-gets pulled down, so you can put this to 0 or 0.000000001, and it doesn't go down it's self

But I think if you move the mouse about, it will return, as the aiming point always trys to get to the mouse point (The "_| |_"-upside down thing )

But you can stop the MG etc from aiming down in OFP1

Random recoil would be nice.

Quote[/b] ]

The idea of shooting anything at a significant range "off-the-hip" for example from the default OFP weapon view. As opposed to iron sights, is just insane. So I'd propose, as before, simulating the handling of the weapon right up to the point where the gun is leveled and you look through your iron sights, instead of this light speed "press V for instant accuracy" type deal.

Try Sanctuary's animation pack, when can fire when running, but the bullets smack into your feet (Well into the gorund at your feet). With high-explosive ammo, it can be a little annoying at times though

- Ben

1'st Now I don't have a rifle at home but I did some basic testing with a airsoftgun and the front sight does not move as you have you eye looking at it, actualy if enything move its the rear sight from the shooter view the front sight stays prity much the same place and its the rear sight that move around but is very quickly "zeroed"(especialy on a plastic gun). The problem is to aim at the taget as it is simulated already in OFP1, and no the front and rear sight does not move around independebly if you rotate the gun a little to the side both sights rotate but from the shooters point of view its the rear sight that rotates the most. I say keep the Sight as it is in OFP that way its also easier to make other sights like aimpoints and so.

2'nd could you show men an example of that recoile cause I don't understand what excatly you mean.

STGN

[void_false 1]

I have some expirence with rifles. Thus I've posted this suggestion.

[stgn 39]

I have some expirence with rifles. Thus I've posted this suggestion.

well what exactly is you mean? Is it that the fronsight independebly from the rear sight mover around(when you have a rifle furmly in you shoulder pocket and you head is resting on the stock? because OFP already has the frontsight moving around as you know and even more when the soldier is tired but the rear sight folowes the front sight all the time.(realistic enough for me). The only way it I can think of where it looks like the front sight is moving around alone is if your looking thrugh a pistol sight with your arms fully streached.

STGN

[RUKH 0]

I hope they do the sighting system in 3d to make it much more editable.

If you want 2d sights anyway then it will be 100 times more easy to mod in than 3d.

Maybe the new engine will allow blurring for really close objects or they will have to use the BIA method (3d frontsight - 2d rear)

Maybe i´ve been spoiled be the Red Orchestra sights

[FatNinjaKid 0]

I was just thinking: How about you make the gun sway a function of the combat situation?

It should be possible to test how many bullets are fired in the direction of the player. For example if there are more than 10 bullets fired in 5 seconds the gun sway gets incresed by say the factor 1.2.

A lot has been written about simulating suppression fire for AI units but what about human players? An increased gun sway might force them to act as if they where suppressed (The problem is obviously that human players are wont get scared when fired upon).

[Baphomet 0]

That would be directly relative to exertion. Really. It's the same idea. During periods of fear and duress your heart rate increases your breathing may become more labored, you may become a bit shaky.

I think that would be a reasonable idea permitted that such a function was coded elegantly enough that it didn't take more than it's fair share of cpu time.

This would be in my opinion scaled based on the skill of the unit. Navy Seals/Spetznaz would certainly be harder to crack than an uninitiated conscript.

This would definitely add a whole new range of options for mission designers that want to add more or less strategic depth and to their mission. It could be modified to higher levels to play as ill equipped civilian militia, or a cold calculating steel nerved operative that may or may not even crack under pressure at all.

It's actually a pretty good idea.

[4 IN 1 0]

this is a good point, the aiming system in OFP now we have is not really realistic

YET, i still thinks thats a balance between realistic and gameplay, as for the fact that, with the AI improvement which will made in OFP2, i wondered if every single human player still alive at the first 5 mins in a firefight(the AIs now we have is already hard to due with).

[Friedchiken 0]

this is a good point, the aiming system in OFP now we have is not really realistic

YET, i still thinks thats a balance between realistic and gameplay, as for the fact that, with the AI improvement which will made in OFP2, i wondered if every single human player still alive at the first 5 mins in a firefight(the AIs now we have is already hard to due with).

Right now I just think that human deaths are more of a function of no common sense. In multiplayer I see people rushing towards to objectice with no sense of cover or pacing.

If we have AI soldiers that act like real soldiers, then people could learn just by observing their AI teammates.

With the current games out, I just don't get the feeling of being a real soldier thanks to the rigid AI in missions.

[4 IN 1 0]

this is a good point, the aiming system in OFP now we have is not really realistic

YET, i still thinks thats a balance between realistic and gameplay, as for the fact that, with the AI improvement which will made in OFP2, i wondered if every single human player still alive at the first 5 mins in a firefight(the AIs now we have is already hard to due with).

Right now I just think that human deaths are more of a function of no common sense.  In multiplayer I see people rushing towards to objectice with no sense of cover or pacing.

If we have AI soldiers that act like real soldiers, then people could learn just by observing their AI teammates.

With the current games out, I just don't get the feeling of being a real soldier thanks to the rigid AI in missions.

well may be because i am playing MP coop with a bunch of ppl i know and the fact that many noob getting killed b4 the actural fight begins, some how i get experence that those AIs doing thing that i did expand it to do, not often and cant acturaly recall it but some time AI in OFP still surprise me, and not to talk about the cheating shooting skill they have(sounds unrealistic rgr)

anyway i dont think there is any good to make the shooting too realistic, a little bit should be fine but not too much, as human errors is something that as easy to make with a mouse, you point the crosshair/ironsight 1mm away from the target you will still miss, and in hot close in firefights in game you just dont have the time to take note about it, you will just point the gun towards the enemy and start pumping lead, not even have time to bring up the sight, and for god sake you are not holding guns IRL, this is a game and we all knows that game is different from real world, so why dont just let go your mind a bit and start feel the fun of it?

[void_false 1]

I'm talking about this:

[FatNinjaKid 0]

anyway i dont think there is any good to make the shooting too realistic, a little bit should be fine but not too much, as human errors is something that as easy to make with a mouse, you point the crosshair/ironsight 1mm away from the target you will still miss, and in hot close in firefights in game you just dont have the time to take note about it, you will just point the gun towards the enemy and start pumping lead, not even have time to bring up the sight, and for god sake you are not holding guns IRL, this is a game and we all knows that game is different from real world, so why dont just let go your mind a bit and start feel the fun of it?

"Pumping lead" at close distance would still make sense. It is pumping lead over long distances that I don't like. The problem with too much precision is that it makes tactical gaming very difficult. There is little need to plan ahead and coordinate when you can nail anything you see.

But maybe we have a different opinion about what makes 1st person shooters fun to play. To me that is tactics and not the jolly fun of running around shooting everthing that moves.

There are already plenty of well-made run-and-gun games out there like the battlefield series, ghostrecon, jointops....etc

I am pretty confident that this is not the market BIS is targeting with OFP2.

[Daniel 0]

I like what you mean, worring more about positioning than unrealistic marksmanship

[4 IN 1 0]

anyway i dont think there is any good to make the shooting too realistic, a little bit should be fine but not too much, as human errors is something that as easy to make with a mouse, you point the crosshair/ironsight 1mm away from the target you will still miss, and in hot close in firefights in game you just dont have the time to take note about it, you will just point the gun towards the enemy and start pumping lead, not even have time to bring up the sight, and for god sake you are not holding guns IRL, this is a game and we all knows that game is different from real world, so why dont just let go your mind a bit and start feel the fun of it?

"Pumping lead" at close distance would still make sense. It is pumping lead over long distances that I don't like. The problem with too much precision is that it makes tactical gaming very difficult. There is little need to plan ahead and coordinate when you can nail anything you see.

But maybe we have a different opinion about what makes 1st person shooters fun to play.   To me that is tactics and not the jolly fun of running around shooting everthing that moves.

There are already plenty of well-made run-and-gun games out there like the battlefield series, ghostrecon, jointops....etc

I am pretty confident that this is not the market BIS is targeting with OFP2.

well i am kind of tactical freak myself, and have a wired idea of using "supressive fire" and left the "sharp shooting" part to my teammates, the idea of void_false is a welcome gift for me, yet i surely dont want to have my rifle/MG in game jumping like hell and need me to keep draging the damn muse down while i wanted to pin down enemys, as i just didnt get such large mouse pat

[funnyguy1 0]

Did anyone mention the tiredness factor?

Well, try to hold any gun (around 3kg) up for a moment...

If they implement proper IR sights, there simply wouldn`t be need of hip shooting, and you`ll be forced to descend your weapon only in case of runing. (offcourse, hip shooting would be still in case of any surprise, but It would look similar to hip shooting after switching off the crosshair in ofp1)

Holding an m16 after a while would be difficult, not to mention SAW...So descending the gun from time to time while standing should became a must.

Also, going back to the IR sights case, I`m a big fan of implementing different ways of using it in ofp2.

Although we all saw that there are still those crosshairs on the ofp2 screens, I think they`ll do something with this.

My suggestion is to make it in fully 3d, and be able to controll the elevation level of the gun, so the IR sight would become most accurate if the gun is nearest your face, and you would be forced to move slower and more carefully, and if you descend it a bit It would aitomaticaly cause bigger dispersion of the bullets, because you wouldn`t see through it as precisely as in the first instance. (Also, we would be able to completely get rid of crosshairs )

[bravo 6 0]

I think this is a very delicate/sensitive topic/subject.

ill just say that when the rifle's kick was added in ofp, lots people didnt like it! i admit i didnt like it also

So im afraid that could happen here in this case too..

try not to change too much or people might not like it.

ps- the best is enemy of good