The Middle East part 2

[Garcia 0]

Speaking of deep shit, the people of Russia will be extinct soon with that nasty -0.37% birth rate.

Oh really? If that is the case, then most of the western world is gone with them. At least that was the case a few years ago, when research showed that most of the western world had a dropping population. Do you really think that a -0.37% birthrate is going to continue indefinitetly?

Quote[/b] ]The only thing anyone should stand up to is the U.N.

Yes, UN is nasty. You talk about UN peacekeepers raping and such, but at the same time you support USA whose troops are doing as bad things in Iraq, and who also torture (no, not the US troops, talking about Cuba...) people and such...USA is worse than UN...

[billybob2002 0]

Rest assured, I saw that part of the article and chose not to quote it exactly because of the implicit suggestion of hive mentality.  In any case, I shouldn't have been so lazy and instead posted a proper reference to the Second Aliya, which in my opinion offers a better insight into why Bolshevism and Zionism were not necessarily at odds:

And almost half of them returned back to Russia. Also, that doesn't prove that the Zionist could influence the Bolshevists. Anyway, to support my argument that Zionists and Bolshevists didn't mix, Trotsky and Lenin were against Zionism.

[/]http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/crnq/2.htm#v20pp72-023[/]

From "Critical Remarks on the National Question" by Lenin:

Quote[/b] ]

Whoever, directly or indirectly, puts forward the slogan of Jewish “national culture†is (whatever his good intentions may be) an enemy of the proletariat, a supporter of all that is outmoded and connected with caste among the Jewish people; he is an accomplice of the rabbis and the bourgeoisie.

[/]http://historiography-project.org/documents/19200208churchill.html[/]

From Zionism versus Bolshevism by Wintson Churchill (the article comes off as anti-jewish in some ways imo):

Quote[/b] ]

Nothing could be more significant than the fury with which Trotsky has attacked the Zionists generally, and Dr. Weissmann in particular.

I'm finish on this subject....

[Nemesis6 0]

USA is worse than UN...

No it's not.

[Garcia 0]

USA is worse than UN...

No it's not.

Yes it is

[Nemesis6 0]

No. And Trevor, I think we're all well aware of the history of the black people in America and the injustices they were forced to live with. The difference between the countries you want to replace America is that in America with is that the government is not allowed to harass an individual for whatever purpose it sees fit. In China, however, well, let me put it like this: If that skin cream of yours says "Made in PRC/Made in China", I'd suggest that you consider if you really want your skin annointed with something that's developed from the organs of dead Chinese political dissidents.

[nindall 0]

and cluster bombs are illegal...

Who says so?

<span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'>Nasrallah sorry for scale of war</span>

Hezbollah chief Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah has said he would not have ordered the capture of two Israeli soldiers if he had known it would lead to such a war.

"Had we known that the kidnapping of the soldiers would have led to this, we would definitely not have done it," he said in an interview on Lebanese TV.

What the hell did he think would happen?!

[Garcia 0]

Cluster bombs isn't illegal, but it kills the "oh we tried to take out the terrorists" arguements from IDF, since clusterbombs isn't the weapon you would use if you did.

And yes, USA is worse than UN.

[Nemesis6 0]

What the hell did he think would happen?!

I've got this one -

Nasrallah sits in his office, and suddenly, ring-ring, that phone which he doesn't answer because it's un-Islamic rings. But wait, it's not the normal one, it's the red one - The Syria phone. It's his good friend Bashar. Bashar just had a chat with Ahmadinejad, and they both agree that now's the time to hit Yahud, and subsequently force the local Ahl al Kitab into another war in which the following will happen:

Israel responds.

Israel is blamed for hitting the civilians Hizballah is forcing to stay at launch sites.

The Useless Nerds convert to Islam again and yell the usual "Jew, fight fair!"

Hostilities cease temporarily while a Hudna is in place and the terrorists rearm under the watch of the Useless Nerds.

The Useless Nerds do nothing.

Back to square one. One change remains, though - Yahud has once again been painted by Hizballah, whose hands the media blindly played into the hands of, as the blood-thirsty pigs and monkeys that the Koran tells us all that they are. And the Jihadis now have more support in the West for their Islamic Takbir.

(Yahud = Jew in Arabic, Ahl al Kitab = People of the Book, meaning people whose religions has roots in either the old or new testament. Takbir = Conquest, expansion in Arabic)

[deanosbeano 0]

Quote[/b] ]Nasrallah sits in his office, and suddenly, ring-ring, that phone which he doesn't answer because it's un-Islamic rings. But wait, it's not the normal one, it's the red one - The Syria phone. It's his good friend Bashar. Bashar just had a chat with Ahmadinejad, and they both agree that now's the time to hit Yahud, and subsequently force the local Ahl al Kitab into another war in which the following will happen:

meanwhile back at the ranch , actual conversations that took place

source

[Nemesis6 0]

You don't believe HizbAllah is controlled by Iran and Syria?

[deanosbeano 0]

what i dont believe is that your alledged conversation is the sole factor that lead to the wasteless killing of many innocent women and children on both sides.

[Bernadotte 0]

and cluster bombs are illegal...

Who says so?

Cluster bombs are not illegal, however their use on civilan areas is illegal.  And, dropping warning leaflets ahead of time does not change that.

Quote[/b] ]Washington to investigate Israel's use of cluster bombs in conflict

The US government is investigating whether Israel has broken secret agreements with Washington with its use of cluster bombs in the Lebanon conflict.  Officials confirmed yesterday that the State Department had launched the inquiry into a possible violation by Israel of an undertaking to use the munitions against only organised armies and defined military targets. The Pentagon has also postponed a shipment of M-26 artillery shells, according to The New York Times.

The move came as the United Nations said it was continuing to find areas riddled with cluster bombs (small munitions that can be lethal for civilians).  "There are about 285 locations across southern Lebanon, and our teams are finding 30 new ones every day," a UN spokeswoman said. "A lot of them are in civilian areas."  Since the 14 August ceasefire between Israel and Hizbollah, eight Lebanese - including two children - have been killed by cluster bombs, and 38 injured.

<span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'>Nasrallah sorry for scale of war</span>

Hezbollah chief Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah has said he would not have ordered the capture of two Israeli soldiers if he had known it would lead to such a war.

"Had we known that the kidnapping of the soldiers would have led to this, we would definitely not have done it," he said in an interview on Lebanese TV.

What the hell did he think would happen?!

I agree.  Knowing Israel, we all should have anticipated that the kidnapping of those 2 soldiers would have led to the deaths of 1100 Lebanese civilians (1/3 below age 10) and destruction costing $3.5 billions (maybe $10 billion if we count the oil spill). What could be more obvious?

[Nemesis6 0]

what i dont believe is that your alledged conversation is the sole factor that lead to the wasteless killing of many innocent women and children on both sides.

Informative, but evasive. So what drove the Lebanese branch of the global death cult of Jihad to attack Israel this time? Did Israel burn a Koran? Did they offend Islam?

You know what I think? I think they were just being Jews.

Israel is not to blame for this conflict. Israel responds to yet another link in the war against Israel that started in 1948. This time, however, the foes are many, and so are the puppeteers, as in the case of HizbAllah.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

about cluster bombs, check the geneva convention.  Using cluster bombs is illegal in civilian areas.

as Bernadotte post says

[Nemesis6 0]

Just a footnote: The Geneva Conventions apply to soldiers. The definiton of being a soldier is in this case, is the following -

You have a Name, Rank, and serial number.

If you don't have all the above, you're armed and you're not a member of an army, you're an unlawful combatant, thus, the Geneva Conventions doesn't apply.

[deanosbeano 0]

Quote[/b] ]Informative, but evasive

its a straight forward answer.No evasiveness about it.:)

my feelings are that it was a war by proxy between the U.S and Iran both sides used there puppets,iran showed how it can arm hizbollah with katushas and the U.S showed how it can arm israel with clusterbombs and jdams. simple as that in my eyes.

i believe that there will be a pre emptive strike on iran, it will be initiated by the U.S against the wishes of The U.N and it will all end in one big disaster.

maybe they will play this tune too.

[Bernadotte 0]

i believe that there will be a pre emptive strike on iran

Haven't the US and Israel done enough already to raise the popularity of Muslim extremists across the region?  

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

Just a footnote: The Geneva Conventions apply to soldiers. The definiton of being a soldier is in this case, is the following -

You have a Name, Rank, and serial number.

If you don't have all the above, you're armed and you're not a member of an army, you're an unlawful combatant, thus, the Geneva Conventions doesn't apply.

exactly, so why is Israel dropping cluster bombs in civilian areas with no army (according to you) present?

[nindall 0]

about cluster bombs, check the geneva convention. Using cluster bombs is illegal in civilian areas.

So using cluster bombs isn't illegal! Targeting them, like any indiscriminate weapon, near civilians is.

Just a footnote: The Geneva Conventions apply to soldiers. The definiton of being a soldier is in this case, is the following -

You have a Name, Rank, and serial number.

If you don't have all the above, you're armed and you're not a member of an army, you're an unlawful combatant, thus, the Geneva Conventions doesn't apply.

What about the Fourth Geneva Convention 'for the Protection of Victims of War'?!

[scary 0]

...it seems that the French are more reluctant to field troops than they initially appeared. Now Olmert wants the Italians to lead the peacekeeping mission. I wonder why that is: perhaps because Prodi has been less vocal in his criticism of Israel?

I have a suspicion France was a little worried about the potential consequences of taking some 'accidental' casualties in one of the IDF's trigger happy moments.

You see I "dismissed" scary's opinion because he thinks because he served in the military he knows how my army works and what does work and what does not.

It is you that is obsessed with me and my occupation, not me. You must get over this infatuation, I'm quite happily attached, thanks. And don't past tense me, my stripes are still firmly stitched.

How your army works is irrelevent. The debate was in reference to the responses of the people on the receiving end of the IDF. But if you would prefer to discuss military strategy; the basic premises haven't really changed since Sun Tzu; for example:

Quote[/b] ]III. 17. Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory: (1) He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. (2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. (3) He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. (4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. (5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.

Hizballah managed all five, the IDF has repeatedly failed in all five.

Quote[/b] ]You said that maybe they continue to fight because we occupaind & destroyinh houses. Well we left Gaza [no more occupation] and stop destroying houses there ? Well, did it helped ? NO !

they still continue to shoot Qasams. You kick somebody, expect him to kick back - and that goes to both sides.

Israel controls all of Gaza's borders, even the one with Egypt. Israel controls Gaza's air and sea space. The IDF makes regular incursions into Gaza. Removing settlements does not mean that Israel has left Gaza, and Gaza is only a small part of Palestine.

Quote[/b] ]And BTW ! scary, I figure you are from UK, correct me If i'm wrong please . .

What does that law agains Terror or something that is in the UK now ? something about arresting suspected terrorist ?

Erm, anyone suspected of any crime can be arrested, same as in most, if not all, countries. They are then either charged and tried or they are released.

Quote[/b] ]They are allowed to arreste suspected, but if we arrest people that they are terrorist it wrong

They don't arrest people in, for example, Germany. Israel has been arresting and assassinating people in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon, not to mention occasional trips further afield. Israel also has this bizarre reversal of burden of proof, in which, to be released, a prisoner must prove their innocence of a crime that Israel will not tell them they are accused of.

Quote[/b] ] . .damd, then you go and call me hypocrite . .

No I didn't.

Quote[/b] ]A lot of the civillian killing happens becuase we have stupid commanders , I admit.

Pretty Ironic me making fun of my Army

No, it is not ironic, it is sensible; I refer you again to Sun Tzu:

Quote[/b] ]If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

There are other historical examples that quickly come to mind, such as the American Revolutionary War and the American Civil War, which brought much bloodshed but led to the eventual abolishment of slavery.

Well I'm not going to argue that war is futile, because that is nonsense, but your examples are rather poor. The American Revolution was mostly about money, so was hardly important in the grand scheme of things and if it hadn't occured America would have remained part of the British Empire. Slavery was abolished in the British Empire - without a war - long before the American Civil War took place.

Oh, [ZG]BUZZARD, the United States would not have sided with Nazi Germany because FDR was anti-Nazi and he would have likely gotten the United States earlier in the war against the Nazis and Japanese if he could.

A bit of revisionist history there, I think. As FDR didn't get the US into the war against either the Nazis or Japan at any time, he couldn't have got it in any earlier. The US was forced into the war.

Like they seriously would go through all this shit just to get nuclear energy. It's clear that Iran seeks to become a regional superpower and nukes pretty much ensure that the US will not invade, just look at north korea.

Actually, there is no evidence that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons. It requires a whole lot of technology and time that they just don't have. Standing up to the US is what got Ahmadinejad the presidency. It's all just a show, the US isn't going to be invading any other countries anytime soon and Ahmadinejad knows it.

The only thing anyone should stand up to is the U.N.

Could you try to restrict yourself to one stupid comment a week? Almost every country is in the UN, it is not an omnipotent organisation bent on world domination; you must be confusing it with SPECTRE.

Quote[/b] ]You don't believe HizbAllah is controlled by Iran and Syria?

Post some evidence and maybe people will. Until that happens I'll carry on believing that Hizballah controls Hizballah.

Quote[/b] ]Just a footnote: The Geneva Conventions apply to soldiers. The definiton of being a soldier is in this case, is the following -

You have a Name, Rank, and serial number.

If you don't have all the above, you're armed and you're not a member of an army, you're an unlawful combatant, thus, the Geneva Conventions doesn't apply.

The Geneva Conventions apply to members of the military; militias, including organised resistance movements; civilians and civilian agents of the military; and:

Quote[/b] ]"Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war."

I'm also quite sure that members of Hizballah have a name, probably a rank and it's not beyond reason that they have a serial number.

There is no such thing as an 'unlawful combatant' and the Geneva Conventions always apply.

[Chris Death 0]

Well, i don't want take part in your discussion here

because it doesn't lead to an end it seems (reading back

lot's of pages i even can't find the start).

Just one question:

If you guys who post here on a peaceful base don't can't come to an end where all participants are happy, how the hell you think the situation down there with real ppl fighting and

dying should come to a solution?

If everybody of you would come one step closer to the

oposite side with agreements like 'i know we're not doing

fine too' it could be a first start, but all of you are just pointing with fingers on your vis a vis.  

just my 2 cents

:edit - and sorry if my post sounds now like one side is for israel and one side for hezbollah - i meant it more one side

is for humans here and other for humans there.

~S~ CD

[mp_phonix 0]

Hmm I thought Geneva Convention was only for soldiers [like Nemessis6 said, name rank etc.] Now I know better, lol.

@scary

Quote[/b] ]

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

Is that from the book "The Art Of War" ?

I don't know much about that law in the UK, but from what I could understand is that you can hold somebody in costady for 90 days for being a suspected terrorist.

that's funny, because some people calling us "kidnhappers" if we arrest people that they are terrorist.

[deanosbeano 0]

Hmm I thought Geneva Convention was only for soldiers [like Nemessis6 said, name rank etc.] Now I know better, lol.

@scary

Quote[/b] ]

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

Is that from the book "The Art Of War" ?

I don't know much about that law in the UK, but from what I could understand is that you can hold somebody in costady for 90 days for being a suspected terrorist.

that's funny, because some people calling us "kidnhappers" if we arrest people that they are terrorist.

Quote[/b] ]that's funny, because some people calling us "kidnhappers" if we arrest people that they are terrorist.

whats funny is your lack of recogniton for the state of palastine,every time you refer to israels actions.

there is a massive difference between a person being arrested on the streets of london or in a house in london and the crossing of a state border kidnapping a member of government/citizen of another state .

its obvious to me reading your statements that you are educated in the style of revisionism and thus ,if the state of palestine does not exist in your mind ,then any actions taken in that state be it murder or kidnapping have no repurcusions in your minds eye.

[Nemesis6 0]

whats funny is your lack of recogniton for the state of palastine,every time you refer to israels actions.

there is a massive difference between a person being arrested on the streets of london or in a house in london and the crossing of a state border kidnapping a member of government/citizen of another state .

its obvious to me reading your statements that you are educated in the style of revisionism and thus ,if the state of palestine does not exist in your mind ,then any actions taken in that state be it murder or kidnapping have no repurcusions in your minds eye.

Palestine is not a state and it's not a country either.

[Bernadotte 0]

Palestine is not a state and it's not a country either.

It's a part of Israel used for storing Arabs.