The Middle East part 2

[USSRsniper 0]

Middle east is going in wrong direction again. I have feeling that if this not going to stop alot of people will die, and more countries can get involved...

and some people want something for soldiers? soldiers is nothing for politicians they are just single minded, soldiers captured = attack on israel. I dont believe they are fighting for lives of soldiers, they just endanger lives of their own soldiers and their citizens. And you dont make peace with war, Israeli killed some civilians now people can get explosives on them selves and say its "revenge".......

I dont see point of this war its pointless as second war in Iraq.... damn wars.....

i just like this qoute, and its true  

"All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers."  

                                        François Fénelon

[xawery 0]

It appears that Romano Prodi has relayed a cease-fire proposal from Israel to the Lebanese government. The Isrealis have offered to cease all hostilities, in return for the kidnapped soldiers and the withdrawal of Hezbollah fighters behind the Litani river. The Lebanese minister of information has confirmed this. I wonder why people expect that Hezbollah will be willing to release the kidnapped soldiers, if it wasn't before. I fear that if anything, the Israeli attacks will only fuel Hezbollah's hatred and determination...

[mp_phonix 0]

from what I see some replys and the whole atmosphere says this:

Hizballaha shoots katyushot kills civillians = OK

IDF bombs airports,houses,kills civillians {accidentlty} = wrong

wtf ?

[Messiah 2]

not quite phoenix, take off those rose tinted glasses for one moment, smell the real world and realise that not one post here supports Hezbollah in any form... neither do any of the posts support the palestinian millitants... you're grabbing assumptions from the land of your imagination again...

everyones problem, bar those wearing simliar glases to you, is that Israels retaliation compared to the initial actions of these militants was one of absurb ferocity with no mention of negotiation, no talks, no peaceful way... instant bombings, killings and aggression... is that the action of a civilised country? These recent militant attacks are in direct response to the scores of civilians/militants/children killed by an angry Israel trying to 'defend' itself... but you either fail or dont want to understand this...

also, your country has a amazing history of these 'accidents' occuring... how come countries who had similiar problems to deal with didnt resort to mass aerial bombings of other countries to 'solve' the situations (and i can think of a few, although one very specific country where a similiar state of affairs occured until very recently) - Is Israel incapable of negotiation? Or has it realised its wildly overreacted and carying on to save face?

Israel is now claiming that Syria and Iran had dealings with the hezbolah missiles that were fired into Haifa... so what now Israel? Drag in Syria and Iran to an escalating war... what does Israel aim to acheive by going to war with everyone? If Iran were to get involved, good luck....

Quote[/b] ]Iran's foreign ministry denies Israeli allegations that it supplied missiles to Hezbollah and warns Israel it will incur "unimaginable losses" if it attacks fellow Hezbollah supporters Syria

Ball is in Olmerts court... but he's proving miserably useless in the world of politics... I even think I heard him say that he ultimatly wants peace in the middle east... by starting a wat on all your neighbours? Is his vision of peace some sort of middle east empire ruled by the Jews?

[Donnervogel 0]

show me a single quote from here that says firing rockets into israel is ok.

And you can hardly bomb airports and bridges accidentally. Also when you drop bombs that leave huge 3m deep and like 6m wide craters in some road inside beirut you don't accidentally kill civillians. you have to expect to kill civilians when you do such and taking that into account in the planning.

Pictures

if you do such attacks you cannot claim to not expect civillians to die and still be sane.

[xawery 0]

from what I see some replys and the whole atmosphere says this:

Hizballaha shoots katyushot kills civillians = OK

IDF bombs airports,houses,kills civillians {accidentlty} = wrong

wtf ?

I think your impression can be attributed to your oft-displayed unwillingness to actually read what is being written. I believe that the whole discussion about the resemblence between your "burn Gaza to the ground" quote and Nazi-tactics has proven that quite nicely...

I would be really, REALLY impressed if you would manage to produce a single quote from these forums which condones Hezbollah's actions. You won't. No one approves of terrorism here.

Allow me to explain it in your terms:

Hezbollah killing civilians = wrong

Hamas killing civilians = wrong

IDF killing civilans = wrong

The salient difference lies in the fact that Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist organisations fed by hate and religious fanaticism, while the IDF is the military arm of a modern, democratic state. We are repeteadly being told that terrorists are the scum of the earth, while Isreal is portrayed as a civilised, morally superior state simply defending itself.

In the mean time, Israel continues to perform "surgical strikes" and "eliminations" which inevitably result in civilian casualties. These casualties are consequently bagatellised with such hollow phrases as "the terrorists shouldn't have been driving through a busy street", "war is hell", "collateral damage" etc. etc., and then it's back to normal. Time for another strike, knowing that firing missiles into a busy street WILL get civilians killed.

To make matters worse, these are not the actions of a fanatical terrorist cell or desperate people who lost their relatives. No, this is institutionalised violence. These actions have the support of military commanders, the government, and apparently the people who put these politician in power. Otherwise they would not take place.

Can you see now that it is very hard to approve of Israel's actions, let alone believe that it has the moral high ground?

Your most likely response to this post will be something along the lines of "should we do nothing then?". Allow me to launch a pre-emptive reply: no. Most certainly not. There is a lot to be done, but lowering yourself to the terrorists' standards is not going to get you anywhere. If the aggressive methods employed by Israel were truly effective, don't you think that the Al-Aqsa brigades and Hamas would be crushed by now?

Just to make things perfectly clear for you: I am not accusing Isreal of being the sole bad guy in this conflict. In my opinion, the surrounding countries and the palestinian terrorists are at least as responsible for this mess. The difference is, Isreal is a modern, democratic state, and should be held to higher standards accordingly.

[j w 0]

IDF killing civilans = wrong

Huh?

I though they were missfireing.

Anyways, why doesn't the US act?

They claim to fight the war on terror, yet, it seems like they more support Israel, then try to stop their terrorizing of Gaza and Lebanon.

And just to add:

IDF bombs airports,houses,kills civillians {accidentlty} = wrong

You don't bomb an airport, destroy towns, bomb the only powersource in Gaza, and in these actions kill alot of civilians, injure them, or the actions simply will lead (or already have lead) to their deaths, by accident!

Don't you see how ridiculous that sounds (and looks for that matter)?

War sucks, but what sucks even more is that when a military, or an organization is to [not-a-kind-word] to solve it in the way of a war (we do have laws about that, wich is wierd (atleast I think we do ), they take it out on civilians.

No, thumbs down for Israels approach to the problems they are facing

(No offence Israelic people, not much you really can do about it, you're not the leaders of the country)

[Bernadotte 0]

Assuming that Hezbollah has not just discovered this capability within the past week, has anyone tried to explain why Haifa has never come under rocket attack from them before the start of this crisis?

Actually, they have been shooting rockets specifically at Nahariya, Safed and Meron, killing four people. Some 700 rockets were fired on 13 July. Haifa was also hit [bBC] by rockets although Hezbollah deined responsibility for that.

Yes, but my question was less about the quantity than quality of those rocket attacks.

I'm not sure where Nahariya, Safed and Meron are but news reports suggest that Haifa is the farthest (~35km) that rockets have reached yet and Haifa was never hit from Lebanon before this past week.  Are we now seeing the best that Hezbollah has to offer or is Tel Aviv next?

Furthermore, what can Israel do now that it didn't do while it was occupying S. Lebanon, 6 years ago?  The biggest difference between now and then is that Lebanon is no longer pro-Syrian.  Shouldn't Israel have responded in such a way that the anti-Syrian factions would be further strengthened?  I can't see how bombing Beirut's main power plant will help with that?

from what I see some replys and the whole atmosphere says this:

Hizballaha shoots katyushot kills civillians = OK

You have to see it this way, mp_phonix.  You have no choice.  How else can justify killing all those innocent Lebanese civilians unless you convince yourself that the entire world, outside of the USA, is out to get you. Of course, history is full of wars started by nations who became convinced that the world was out to get them.

[t80 0]

Middle east is going in wrong direction again. I have feeling that if this not going to stop alot of people will die, and more countries can get involved...

and some people want something for soldiers? soldiers is nothing for politicians they are just single minded, soldiers captured = attack on israel. I dont believe they are fighting for lives of soldiers, they just endanger lives of their own soldiers and their citizens. And you dont make peace with war, Israeli killed some civilians now people can get explosives on them selves and say its "revenge".......

I dont see point of this war its pointless as second war in Iraq.... damn wars.....

i just like this qoute, and its true   

"All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers."  

                                        François Fénelon

Quote[/b] ] i just like this qoute, and its true

"All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers."

François Fénelon

Say that! to the worlds states, that need these wars to control us the small brothers..

[mp_phonix 0]

You have to see it this way, mp_phonix.  You have no choice.  How else can justify killing all those innocent Lebanese civilians unless you convince yourself that the entire world, outside of the USA, is out to get you.  Of course, history is full of wars started by nations who became convinced that the world was out to get them.

nop.

I didn't say that somebody actually said tha it's ok when Hizballah killed civiliians, but you are all here just saying "Israel is wrong", and not even taking notice of what the Hizballah did, like what they do is ok.

[scary 0]

Israel is making a rod for it's own back again.

Israel starts by using sonic boom overflights and shelling Gaza for months, allegedly to stop Qassam rocket attacks. A rather inexplicable tactic only compounded by the fact that five years of Qassam rocket attacks have caused less deaths than one Israeli airstrike.

After 29 Palestinians are killed and 104 injured in June by the shelling, Palestinian militants retaliate by killing two soldiers and kidnapping another. I really cannot see Israeli politicians and the IDF being all that surprised that their actions would result in retaliatory attacks.

The Palestinian militants demand the release of some Palestinian prisoners. So, does Israel try to come up with some sort of compromise, such as releasing all of the thousands of prisoners held without charge - which is far from unreasonable? No, they destroy Gaza's infrastructure, cutting off 750,000 people from electricity and water and kidnap half its government.

Since Syria was forced to leave Lebanon last year Hizbollah has been losing its credibility. Seeing the events in Gaza, Hizbollah has used them as an excuse - and it is just an excuse, Sunni Hamas and Shia Hizbollah are hardly the closest allies - for a copycat attack, in the hope that Israel over-reacts, isolating themselves and garnering support for Hizbollah in Lebanon. Ever predictable Israel over-reacts.

Israel is driving anti-Syria Lebanon back into the arms of Hizbollah. If the Lebanese government collapses as a result, which is not unlikely, anti-Israel Syria, backed by Iran will take control.

Israel could easily start WWIII. And Israel will lose WWIII.

An interesting article by Henry Siegman here

Hizballaha shoots katyushot kills civillians = OK

Who said this. Or did you just make it up?

Quote[/b] ]IDF bombs airports,houses,kills civillians {accidentlty} = wrong

Yes, that would be wrong. Will you ever be capable of understanding the concept that both sides can be wrong?

Of course, you would think the 'best pilots in the world' would have fewer 'accidents'. Every time the IDF kill a civilian it's an 'accident'. I guess the IDF shooting at another news crew last week was an accident too.

What if Israel 'accidentally' fires on HMS Illustrious and HMS Bulwark? What do you think a suitable response would be? Bear in mind they're not Israeli tin cans so are quite capable of sinking the entire Israeli fleet and, with 500 of HM's finest on board, launching an invasion of Israel.

[mp_phonix 0]

LoL.

first, read the comment above,

second - I think you have a quait big imgination.

[Donnervogel 0]

We are taking notice but nobody expect Hezbollah to act right. Tey're an organisation that is devoted to terrorism which we all agree is bad and must be stopped. But we do not expect Israel to react like it did because Israel is not a terrorist organisation yet is is acting very careless and over the top and by that endagers many civillian lifes. And as it stands now the Hesbollah killed less Israelis than the Israelis killed Lebanese citizens during this crisis. I dunno but that leaves a very sour taste in my mouth considering Israel is claiming to fight terrorists and by that is causing even more dammage than the terrorists are.

Israel simply has to restrain itself and show us what the difference is to the terrorists. This is not done by killing more people than the terrorists. Because then I really begin to wonder if Israel is any better. Don't get me wrong. I know Israel has the potential to be better and to show it to us. But it is definitly going into the wrong direction at the moment.

[scary 0]

LoL.

first, read the comment above,

Quote[/b] ]nop.

I didn't say that somebody actually said tha it's ok when Hizballah killed civiliians, but you are all here just saying "Israel is wrong", and not even taking notice of what the Hizballah did, like what they do is ok.

I repeat:Will you ever be capable of understanding the concept that both sides can be wrong?

Quote[/b] ]second - I think you have a quait big imgination.

In what way? Do you not understand cause and effect?

[denoir 0]

Furthermore, what can Israel do now that it didn't do while it was occupying S. Lebanon, 6 years ago?  The biggest difference between now and then is that Lebanon is no longer pro-Syrian.  Shouldn't Israel have responded in such a way that the anti-Syrian factions would be further strengthened?  I can't see how bombing Beirut's main power plant will help with that?

The only thing it will help is to reinforce Hezbollah's influence in Lebanon.

Maybe, and it's a big maybe, it can destroy some Hezbollah military capabilities. This attack on Haifa with long-range rockets and the attack on the Israeli corvette with radar-guided anti-ship missiles shows that Hezbollah has access to some serious hardware. It's possible that the primary aim of this invasion is preemptive and that Israel was just waiting for a pretext to do it, which they got with the kidnapped soldiers.

Given however that Hezbollah's supplier is Iran and that we are not talking about a full military organization, shooting up Lebanon's infrastructure is unlikely to hurt them.

And although I am a subscriber of the ideology that one should never attribute to malice what you can explain by incompetence, in this case you can't explain it with incompetence. That they didn't know how militarily useless such an operation would be and what the consequences would be is not a plausible theory, no matter how incompetent they might be.

[mp_phonix 0]

that you think the Israel will "accidently" attack the UK boats.

Both sides can be wrong. Israel should have restrained it attacks in the first place and it should now. But if those rockets will reach souther the Haifa - I honstly don't care if we will bomb the country "back to the stone age" {like some of you said}.

[scary 0]

that you think the Israel will "accidently" attack the UK boats.

I said 'if' not 'they will'. 'If' Israel can 'accidentally' fire on Lebanese infrastructure and 100+ civilians then it can 'accidentally' fire on the UK ships.

Quote[/b] ]Both sides can be wrong. Israel should have restrained it attacks in the first place and it should now. But if those rockets will reach souther the Haifa - I honstly don't care if we will bomb the country "back to the stone age" {like some of you said}.

If you don't care about Lebanese civilians why should anyone else care about Israeli civilians? You will care if Syria and Iran end up in the conflict, possibly dragging the rest of the world in and Israel is bombed back to the Mesozoic era.

The moral of the story is don't fire on someone and expect them not to fire back.

[mp_phonix 0]

The moral of the story is don't fire on someone and expect them not to fire back.

That go to both sides - Israel & Hizballah.

They started it, the whole region was quite - we didnt bomb anyone {in Lebanon}, and suddenly they attacked. what do they think that we don't strike back ?

[j w 0]

Yeah, or all countries with nukes could accidently fire them all at eachother blowing the whole world up, and we swedes move to the moon (with our mooses)

No, seriously, can't we just say that Israel has made wrong, since they didn't play fair, they have destroyed large parts of civilian infrastructure, and today I read in a swedish newspaper, that 4000+ people, just from sweden, is stuck in lebanon, cause, ehrm, someone, has, erhm, accidently, ehrm, bombed the airfield...

And then it's alot of other civilian people, maybe visiting their families, relatives etc etc, and now they can't go home.

Isn't that evidence enough that Israel* is terrorizing civlians in Lebanon (and Gaza).

Right?

*The military, but you understand

[mp_phonix 0]

we didn't accidently bombed the airifiled, I talked about the civillians - not all the civillians are killed by the same "cause", i mean:

1.) Airplane fires to building A, missle misses and hits Building B and kills civillians {like with the 3 kids playing footbal

2.)Airplane fires to bulding A, hits building A - civillians that were standing near Building A are casualties.

[Messiah 2]

how about:

3.) Airplane doesnt fire into building, A, thus doesnt hit building B and hence those three children playing football can continue with their childhood. Aircraft returns to Israel and peaceful negotiations take place...

christ, who am I kidding... let the slaughter carry on

[j w 0]

what drug are you on?  

No, but yeah, you're right. We should just have world peace.

we didn't accidently bombed the airifiled

So, that must mean they did it on purpose. Cause it was bombed.

Why bomb the only way out for people visiting Lebanon to pieces?

[Garcia 0]

But if those rockets will reach souther the Haifa - I honstly don't care if we will bomb the country "back to the stone age" {like some of you said}.

Yeah, and that just tells all you need to know about your personlity and your rather...bad view on other humans right to live.

[danowen 0]

that you think the Israel will "accidently" attack the UK boats.

http://www.ussliberty.org/

[mp_phonix 0]

IDF Air-Force chief showing where IAF bombed etc.

It's in hebrew but at least you could see where we bombed. He explains why etc. but you don't understand hebrew  

He shows video of thing bombed. those things are Katyusha launchers, if you look closly you will se that they are.

The buldings that are bombed are Hizballah HQ's, Ammo caches,fuel stations, Radars that are posted on the beach bridges etc, according to the chief.

& scary , for you : see the accuarcy of our bombings, just look at the video before you say anything, look at the bombins on the Radar, ppl standing near it, and after the 'boom' they look ok {infra red, but they can still move}.

About the last 2 vids in the big video:

1st - Attack on tunnel that is hidden in a chicken house {the place that they keep chickens, you know} =.. IAF dropped 1 bomb and you cann see the secondary explosions of the ammo hidden there.

2nd - A Qassam werhouse

All the I described above, I translated what the chief said.

http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//941499