The Middle East part 2

[ozanzac 0]

Who said anything about crying a river?

You should put it in context, billybob.

These problems keep going around and around and around. Does blowing up infrastructure, really help in getting there soldiers back, or do anything to bring the region to peace?

If the citizens of that part of the world are 'happy' living in a warzone and all it's associated problems, on their doorstep, well, good for them... Must be quite an exciting lifestyle!

I really couldn't give a toss what happens, I live half a world away, I don't personally know anyone living there, I don't intend on ever visiting that part of the world, and it beats reading about grannys cat stuck up a tree, or some other hollow news item.

Then again, we've seen this in the headlines time and time again, and it really is a case of 'FFS, not again.... when will they learn?'... I don't think they're even willing to learn, and they're not, then why should I care?

The underlying problems are never going to be solved in my lifetime, at least not with the current attitudes on both sides... But when the streets of the middle east are filled with more blood, i'm not going to act suprised, because I stopped caring a long long time ago.

If they can't see that something has to change, then hey, at least it will give my kids and my kids, kids, something to read, and get sick of seeing in the headlines...

[denoir 0]

No, Brazil or Germany doesn't have the right because the goal of those airstrikes wasn't meant to kill them or any civilians for that matter.

Lebanon didn't attack Israel. A terrorist organization, that is not supported by the Lebanese government, but that operates partially out of Lebanon did that.

Quote[/b] ]I guess the Taliban should be reinstalled because the United States and others invaded the sovereign country of Afghanistan and removed the Taliban due to them sheltering Al-Qaeda. There is no consensus with these types of incidents.

That particular case is a bit fuzzy due to the overwhelming sympathy for the US after the 11th September attacks. Since there was no UN resolution authorizing the use of force, technically the bombing and subsequent invasion was in violation of international law. So was the intervention in Kosovo.

There is however a big difference, unless you want to compare the kidnapping of two soldiers with the 11th September attacks or the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. Besides the scale, in Afghanistan the Taliban were protecting and supplying AQ. Hezbollah in Lebanon on the other hand is a minority opposition party - i.e not the ones controlling Lebanon.

Quote[/b] ]Blah, It wouldn't surprise me that Iran was behind the abductions to force focus away on the coming deadline with them on nuclear energy.

Are you kidding? There's nothing that Iran currently loves more than the media attention of being uncooperative. Ahmadinejad was elected with a very small majority and has been reinforcing his position by playing the crowds with populist themes, like the Iran vs the World on the nuclear issue or his anti-Israel rhetoric.

[billybob2002 0]

Lebanon didn't attack Israel. A terrorist organization, that is not supported by the Lebanese government, but that operates partially out of Lebanon did that.

So didn't the Taliban but we still attacked them with the support of various nations including European ones.

Quote[/b] ]There is however a big difference, unless you want to compare the kidnapping of two soldiers with the 11th September attacks or the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. Besides the scale, in Afghanistan the Taliban were protecting and supplying AQ. Hezbollah in Lebanon on the other hand is a minority opposition party - i.e not the ones controlling Lebanon

Each situation is unique and, therefore, should not be compared between each other. Hezbollah isn't just some minority opposition party because they are heavily armed and the Lebanese government wouldn't touch them due to the storm that would come if they do. Something isn't right in which a "minority" opposition party is allowed to own and use katyusha rockets, 9K51 Grads, and etc. against a other country. Or, is that just me?

Who said anything about crying a river?

You should put it in context, billybob.

The whole bully talk.

[denoir 0]

Each situation is unique and, therefore, should not be compared between each other. Hezbollah isn't just some minority opposition party because they are heavily armed and the Lebanese government wouldn't touch them due to the storm that would come if they do. Something isn't right in which a "minority" opposition party is allowed to own and use katyusha rockets, 9K51 Grads, and etc. against a other country. Or, is that just me?

And in this situation we had two Israeli soldiers being kidnapped and where Hezbollah declared that they weren't going to kill them. Now thanks to Israel's actions two orders of magnitude more people are dead.

Now, it is inconceivable that Israel could be so stupid that with all their historic experience they couldn't have predicted what this would lead to. Given that Hamas was just last week ready to implicitly recognize Israel, one cannot help but wonder if the Israeli government actually isn't trying to keep this conflict going.

To quote what Dwight D. Eisenhower said about America in his farewell address regarding the US military buildup during and after WW2:

Quote[/b] ]

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

His warnings one can see were very real. By making the war machinery a vital component of the economy and politics, you get dependent on war. And true enough, on average there have been a dozen of wars each decade that the US has gotten involved into (and mostly started or helped start).

The point being that Israel is in a similar situation as it has been in a de facto state of war during the last 60 years. Its politics and economy are tied to this state of war. Should it end, there would be a lot of negative consequences for some people. The massive economic subsidies from the US would stop. The whole political system would have to be built from scratch (as the current political platforms revolve mostly around the single issue of the conflict). There would be little use for their military-industrial complex.

Ultimately I don't think there is any other reasonable explanation as a moderately gifted monkey could have figured out that the current action against Lebanon would only serve to escalate the conflict.

Of course, Hezbollah also plays its part, I'm not trying to excuse their actions. They too are an organization that is dependent on conflict and the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers was clearly a provocation. Perhaps they realized that Hamas recognizing Israel would be bad for their business. The fundamental difference however is that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization and Israel is supposed to be a modern democracy.

[EiZei 0]

Jesus. Fucking. Christ.

[Bernadotte 0]

Ultimately I don't think there is any other reasonable explanation as a moderately gifted monkey could have figured out that the current action against Lebanon would only serve to escalate the conflict.

Yes, the "War Economy" is as old as fear itself.

Another reasonable explanation claims that every nation in the Middle East seeks some external struggle to keep their people distracted from domestic concerns.  

For example, I know a number of Israelis who feel that their country could have come very close to civil war many times had it not been for the unifying effect of the Palestinian conflict.

Another example claims that the conflict has helped to keep potential Shia uprisings in Saudi Arabia's oil-rich eastern province on the backburner, resulting in the best of both worlds - high oil prices and production stability.

[mattxr 9]

Is it just me.. or is World War III Brewing??

[j w 0]

Nah... Couldn't be... Right?

Since the US closed in on China for like 6 months ago, but nothing happened, just really died out...

Or?

[earl 0]

Meanwhile, Baghdad crumbles: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2268585_1,00.html

-the US no longer responds to the numerous nightly gunbattles between shia and sunni.

-about 850K iraqis have fled since the US invasion, and it's very quickly increasing now that it's becoming harder to deny the label "civil war" for the current state in baghdad.

-flights to Damascus have gone up from three a week to eight

-buses through the sunni triangle into Jordan have gone up from 2 to 40-50 a day.

-1600 killed, 2500 wounded in the last six weeks.

So the shia-dominated, US-trained, government-equippped security forces are starting to join shia militias in nightly 'death squads' throughout baghdad, executing anyone with a sunni name, while those with enough money are getting the hell out as fast as possible, draining the professionals who were supposed to help rebuild iraq into a functional democracy.

As for the latest contestants in the war on terror, the important lesson for Hezbollah is that if you twist Isreal's nipple, they will simply headbutt you. You knew it would happen.

 

[Bordoy 0]

Meanwhile, Baghdad crumbles: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2268585_1,00.html

-the US no longer responds to the numerous nightly gunbattles between shia and sunni.

-about 850K iraqis have fled since the US invasion, and it's very quickly increasing now that it's becoming harder to deny the label "civil war" for the current state in baghdad.

-flights to Damascus have gone up from three a week to eight

-buses through the sunni triangle into Jordan have gone up from 2 to 40-50 a day.

-1600 killed, 2500 wounded in the last six weeks.

So the shia-dominated, US-trained, government-equippped security forces are starting to join shia militias in nightly 'death squads' throughout baghdad, executing anyone with a sunni name, while those with enough money are getting the hell out as fast as possible, draining the professionals who were supposed to help rebuild iraq into a functional democracy.

As for the latest contestants in the war on terror, the important lesson for Hezbollah is that if you twist Isreal's nipple, they will simply headbutt you.  You knew it would happen.

 

I don't think it could be labelled anything but civil war.

[mp_phonix 0]

Pictures from wahts happening in Israel.

these pictures are taken by the "Roitress" organization {I hop I spelled it right}.

"Back to the north" - IDF armoerd colums moving towards Lebanon

"Shot fired" - IDF 155mm Artillary firing

the outcome in Lebanon

"Bon Voyage" - the international airport burning

"Grounded"

IDF gunship over Gaza

*note: the titels for the pics{grounded, bon voyage} are taken from the source - www.nana.co.il

[deanosbeano 0]

Unfotunately for Israel the "Bon Voyage" title is gonna be very poinient when this settles down,lebanese tourism was coming to a nice steady pace ,plenty of foriegn nationals started to visit,but unfortunately now,the tourism trade is gone backwards another 10 years, which = poverty ,which = only source of income = hezbollah which = more dependancy on terror, its all a vicious circle, Israel should think before it trys to recover from the last 3 weeks of gaza bombing that had no meaning no goals and no suport for the politicians.its like watching the world cup again ,when zidane should have paused for thought and waited until he was offf the pitch and negotiated behind the scenes, instead of acting way over the top in an agressive manner for the whole world to see.

[mp_phonix 0]

I know, that is sad that a country has to suffer because some loonitics with guns {& artillary, and AA . . }.

[i was not sarcastic btw ]

{I'm just explaning why Israel bombed the airport ===>>}

The airport was how thje Hizzballah was transfering weapons into the counry. it was not the only way, but it was one of them. not that I support this specific action, but I am explaning the IDF.

About we killing civillians with no reason. before we bombed that southern part of beirut we dropped leafets in 12:00 warning the civillians that the areas is going to be bombed in 18:00 , at least you cannot say we didn't warn them

[Messiah 2]

thats a very naive comment to make... what do you expect those oh so fortunate lebanese civilians to do then? Pack up their entire life and move? With what? I'd be suprised if they all own vehicles of such an undertaking...

so they get out with their lives, but their houses and belongings run the risk of being disintegrated when Israel begins its show of force and 'dont fuck with me' attitude... thats a brilliant life to return to... how nice of Israel to warn them of the inpending destruction of their lives as they know it...

unfortunatly, not everyone on the Israeli side seemed to know/care that there were civilians attempting to evacuate their next artilery/airstrike playground:

BBC

Quote[/b] ]An Israeli air raid has killed at least 17 Lebanese civilians who were fleeing southern border areas.

Women and children were among those killed when the convoy was hit. "Bodies litter the road," an eyewitness said.

Israel has expanded its campaign launched after Hezbollah militants seized two Israeli soldiers. More than 70 Lebanese have been killed.

so Israel tell them of the intended attack to give them a chance to flee, then blow them up anyway? Why? Perhaps the static bridge/runway targets were getting a little dull, so they though at least a moving civilian convoy would be a little more challenging. Lets remember mp_phoenix that these are the best pilots in the world, are they not?

ok, im quite happy to admit im being a little dramatic in my above statement, but lets say its below par on what some of the obviously biased/stalwart pro-Israeli's here have posted, failing to listen to any reason, siding with their great proud nation as it does as it pleases, plunging the middle east 100 years into the past... genious.

about these claims of the airport being used to import weapons... Out of genuine interest has there been any published reports/security/intelligence articles showing that without doubt that this was the case and that these were genuine targets, or has it been a case of placing pins on a map and going on a rampage?

[Bordoy 0]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5184018.stm

Quote[/b] ]Royal Navy ships head for Lebanon

Defence Secretary Des Browne has given orders for HMS Illustrious and HMS Bulwark to "make ready" for operations off Lebanon.

The pair will depart as soon as necessary, possibly within 24 hours.

No order for evacuating UK citizens has yet been given, but ministers and defence staff are considering a plan to evacuate those trapped in Lebanon.

It comes as Israel has stepped up its strikes in Lebanon after Hezbollah militants seized two Israeli soldiers.

'Contingency planning'

HMS Illustrious is currently in Gibraltar and HMS Bulwark is close to Barcelona in Spain.

The decision whether to proceed with an evacuation plan has not yet been taken and no orders have been given.

Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett said British nationals in Lebanon should make sure the embassy knows of them, to stay put, keep a low profile and take embassy advice as it becomes available.

A Foreign Office spokesman added: "We are also advising British nationals to get ready for departure at short notice if the situation changes including by having travel documents in order."

But a British student in Lebanon, Natalya Adams, told BBC Radio Five Live she was having trouble getting help from the British embassy, unlike American students who had been send texts from their embassy.

"We've not heard anything and the only news I'm getting is from my mum... bugging them from London," she said.

"She's able to get through to the London number and she's the one who's giving me the information on what the British embassy are saying."

Meetings on the evacuation plan are taking place at the Ministry of Defence.

An MoD spokeswoman said the two ships had been given "no specific tasking", but added: "As you would expect we are monitoring the situation closely and are engaging in prudent contingency planning."

"As part of this HMS Illustrious and HMS Bulwark will shortly head towards the region," she said.

'Planes and bombs'

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said the offensive against Lebanese targets will continue until Hezbollah releases the soldiers and stops firing rockets at Israel.

British student Karen Wild from Sheffield, who is in the Lebanese capital, Beirut, told BBC News 24 that she did "not feel safe".

She said she had been able to speak to the British embassy in Beirut who had told her to "stay put, stay inside" for the time being.

"It is quite unnerving when you hear the planes and bombs coming," said the student of Arabic.

Ms Wild said fellow Canadian, Spanish and Italian students had been evacuated in the past few days.

There are several thousand Britons in Beirut. One who has got out of the city is student Angela Quatermaine, from Oxford.

She told the BBC: "The Lebanese have been so kind and friendly... they have been wonderful getting us out of Beirut."

Referring to the news that the two Royal Navy vessels were on standby, she said: "I don't know how they are going to get here as the port has been bombed... we'll believe it when we see it."

Marines aboard

BBC defence correspondent Paul Wood has said that 24 hours to get ready for sailing would be considered a "short turnaround" for the two ships.

He said that damage to the airport and port in Beirut meant it would be "difficult to get in".

"Any evacuation would be carried out in concert with other countries, led by the US," he added.

Mr Wood said HMS Bullwark had a contingent of 500 marines, which could be used to make beaches safe in the event of any evacuation.

HMS Illustrious has helicopters and fighter bombers on board, which again could be used to aid any evacuation.

Hopefully to get British Citizens out of there and not going there for a fight.

[mattxr 9]

Well the way i see it, it deserves them right.. if they just gave back that captured solider non of this would have happened.. they brought it on there own people by taking it a step further and capturing him.. Israels right.. as the world says “We will not negotiate with terroristsâ€.. they should of gave him back and that would of been the end...

[Bordoy 0]

Well the way i see it, it deserves them right.. if they just gave back that captured solider non of this would have happened.. they brought it on there own people by taking it a step further and capturing him.. Israels right.. as the world says “We will not negotiate with terroristsâ€.. they should of gave him back and that would of been the end...

It's all about the proportion of force and where it's aimed. A state has responsibilities to raise it's game above terrorism. What Isreal do is act like terrorists in response to terrorism. There is no difference for me in a Palestinian person blowing a bunch of innocent people up and an Isreali helicopter blowing a bunch of innocent people up. Thing is, Isreal as a state, has a moral obligation to not act as terrorists.

How can Isreal on the one hand talk about a war on terror and at the same time be unable to seperate themselves from terrorism. For my mind, the only thing that seperates Isreal from being terrorists is that those who currently determine what a terrorist is are on Isreal's side.

from Oct 2001-May 2002 (the first set of figures I came across), the Palestinians had killed 17 children - the Israelis had killed 210. For all civilians, from Sept 2000-May 2002, it was 319 against 1538.

I can only think it all comes back to the old guilt of hundreds of years of Jewish persecution and the actions of the Nazis. Sooner or later this can't be used as an excuse for Isreal's actions.

[billybob2002 0]

Now, it is inconceivable that Israel could be so stupid that with all their historic experience they couldn't have predicted what this would lead to. Given that Hamas was just last week ready to implicitly recognize Israel, one cannot help but wonder if the Israeli government actually isn't trying to keep this conflict going.

The problem with your argument is that elements from Hamas' military wing took part in the Army outpost attack and helped in abducting a Israeli soldier. There are probably elements within the Israeli government and military that wants this conflict to continue but you really think Hamas was willing to recognize Israel with that attack last week? Or, you forget that Hamas claimed groups joint responsibility for the attack.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-06-27-gaza-explosion_x.htm

Quote[/b] ]

The army declined comment on reports that soldiers were also killed in the attack, for which Hamas and the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility. The groups said they were avenging Israel's killing of militants in recent weeks, including seven shot dead Saturday in the West Bank.

[Garcia 0]

Well the way i see it, it deserves them right.. if they just gave back that captured solider non of this would have happened.. they brought it on there own people by taking it a step further and capturing him.. Israels right.. as the world says “We will not negotiate with terrorists”.. they should of gave him back and that would of been the end...

You can't justify smashing Lebanon because a terrorist organization, which operates from that country, did something wrong.

If the mafia had a HQ next to you, and the police was gonna bring them down, would you accept that they smashed your house in the process? Would you accept that the police said "Hey, not our fault, we were right to smash this whole city, the mafia brought it on you."?

I really hope you see how really shitty and naive argument that is to justify making innocent peoples lives shitty.

YOU CAN'T JUSTIFY ACTIONS THAT HURT INNOCENT PEOPLE WITH ARGUMENTS ABOUT BAD PEOPLE BRINGING IT ON THE INNOCENT ONES

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I just thought of Brasil. Just imagine the brasilian army would one day decide to attack its Favelas with jet fighters and pound it with artillery and gun ships!

[Donnervogel 0]

Well the way i see it, it deserves them right.. if they just gave back that captured solider non of this would have happened..

the Hezbollah is not the lebanese government. Sure it is member of the lebanese government simply because it is a party in the country that has much power and if you read up history and recent reports on lebanon you can see that that country has not a very stable government and thus not a very stable peace. Not long ago lebanese were slaughering each other and the potential for this to happen again is still there if some major party feels it is overruled. That's why the hezbollah needs to be part of the government.

The Wikipedia article on Lebanon suggests that there are about 60% Muslims and 40% Christians. The latest election results suggest that the Muslims are split equally to Sunni and Shiites. Hezbollah is a Shiite party. I don't know if there are any other major Shiite parties in Lebanon so let's just assume the majority of these Shiites are inclined to support Hezbollah that would make about 30% of the Lebanese population. So much for the (very rough) math.

anyway. I can't see how one can argue "they deserved it" when the israeli bombardment targets the civilian infrastructure of a country. This is punishing the entire country and mostly the civilians and especially the 70% non Hezbollah supporters are affected aswell.

Israels reaction is totally over the top. Sure "if they gave back the soldiers" it would end. But the government can't really do that. If they would use the military/police against the Hezbollah a new devastating civil war is guaranteed. Also Israel didn't really leave the Lebanese any chance to actually negotiate the release with Hezbolloah. The attacks on Lebanon (not only Hezbollah positions but also important civillian Infrastructure like the Airport, bridges) started almost immediatly after it happened.

Now of course the Lebanese are in a sucky position. Bowing down to the Israelis and use their own forces against Hezbollah to fullfill their demands (disarming Hezbollah as stated in the UN resolution 1559 in the year 2004, releasing the soldiers, ...) would be seen as treachery by Muslims (the lebanese army chief being a christian on top of that) and is a guarantee for religious turmoil and maybe another civil war. Also it would destabilise the government for sure as the Muslims (at least the Shiites) would not let it happen that Lebanon becomes Israels puppet. Doing nothing on the other hand will not stop the Israeli hardliner as they can savely claim their demands are not fulfilled and in the end result in the country being bombed to stone age or devastated in a war with a huge risk of another following civil war or Syrian intervention whose mastery they could just get rid off short while ago.

And the chances for Hezbollah to cave in to Israeli demands are slim to none... so... what would YOU do in this situation? You got the choice of civil war or... civil war. Maybe if you're lucky you only get bobmed to stone age and robbed of much of your economy (tourism, destroyed infrastructure). What a nice prospect.

EDIT: Also keep' in mind that the Hezbollah organisation only has a couple tousand real members. About thousand of them armed and about 400 "fighters". (according to the German Wikipedia article on Hezbollah that claims to have the CIA as a source - other sources I found stated they had about 800 members, it is unclear how member is defined as the Hezbollah is not the "military wing". The Military wing is Al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya which that is a sub organisation of hezbollah.) The Lebanese population is about 3.5 Mio and according to my calculations about 1.2 Mio shiite muslims.

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]Rockets fired by Hezbollah militants in Lebanon have killed at least nine people and wounded dozens of others in the coastal Israeli city of Haifa.  -- BBC

Assuming that Hezbollah has not just discovered this capability within the past week, has anyone tried to explain why Haifa has never come under rocket attack from them before the start of this crisis? Perhaps I don't entirely understand all the talk of escalation, when the terrorist side was already supposed to be attacking Israel with all means at its disposal.  Maybe that wasn't true.

[868 0]

I'm wondering if President Bush will put pressure on Israel to accept a cease-fire (at the very least), and if so, would it alter any perspectives of America in the Arab world.

The stance in the USA will not change. As someone wrote, they prefer the 'status quo'. There is a reason why it is best to be on the fence, as it is in this case. Mainly monetary (ex:military contracts,etc) and political (ex:making the situation worse with the arab nations,etc).

A very simple example is USAs history with the south american countries (ok, abit complicated but you see my point).

As for "would it alter any perspectives of America in the Arab world", it is a case of 'I've already slept with another woman and we're going through a complicated devorce preceedings.'

But since everyone's posting their own thoughts and that's what this board is for. I have to agree that Israels actions doesn't validate their actions what so ever.

My 2.5 cents

[mp_phonix 0]

Quote[/b] ]Rockets fired by Hezbollah militants in Lebanon have killed at least nine people and wounded dozens of others in the coastal Israeli city of Haifa.  -- BBC

Assuming that Hezbollah has not just discovered this capability within the past week, has anyone tried to explain why Haifa has never come under rocket attack from them before the start of this crisis?  Perhaps I don't entirely understand all the talk of escalation, when the terrorist side was already supposed to be attacking Israel with all means at its disposal.  Maybe that wasn't true.

That's because if they would have done it, waht we do to Lebanonb now would have done then - Hizballah didn't mean to drag the region to a fighting ===>> stupid ass hizballah, thinking that they can kidnhapp 2 soldier, kill 5 and get away with it.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]Rockets fired by Hezbollah militants in Lebanon have killed at least nine people and wounded dozens of others in the coastal Israeli city of Haifa.  -- BBC

Assuming that Hezbollah has not just discovered this capability within the past week, has anyone tried to explain why Haifa has never come under rocket attack from them before the start of this crisis?  Perhaps I don't entirely understand all the talk of escalation, when the terrorist side was already supposed to be attacking Israel with all means at its disposal.  Maybe that wasn't true.

Actually, they have been shooting rockets specifically at Nahariya, Safed and Meron, killing four people. Some 700 rockets were fired on 13 July. Haifa was also hit [bBC] by rockets although Hezbollah deined responsibility for that.

mp_phonix:

Quote[/b] ]

That's because if they would have done it, waht we do to Lebanonb now would have done then - Hizballah didn't mean to drag the region to a fighting ===>> stupid ass hizballah, thinking that they can kidnhapp 2 soldier, kill 5 and get away with it.

Yeah, and now they've killed a dozen of Israeli soldiers, a dozen of Israeli civilians and reinforced their support in Lebanon. Also the world opinion has turned against Israel's overreaction. In this case it's stupid ass Israel that is doing the equivalent of using a grenade launcher to kill a mosquito. No, dragging the region into fighting can more be attributed to Israel, but on the whole I'm not sure that Hezbollah minds at all.

If it wasn't for the innocent civilians getting killed on both sides, I would say that the war mongers on both sides deserve each other.