The Middle East part 2

[Nemesis6 0]

Phoenix, you wouldn't happen to live in Sderot, would you?

7 people were wounded in a Kassam rocket attack on Sderot, two rockets fired. And the media call these "home-made missiles". Right... Apparently, home-made missiles require specialized workshops to be produced. And, since they're "home-made" and "crude", they don't do any damage, right?

Well, that's AFP, BBC, New York Post, The Guardian in a nutshell for ya.

By the way, Garcia, if they really cared about those houses, their terrorist government would stop their own terrorists from using them as launching sites for sniper attacks, Qassam launchings, and whatever the Jihadis want to use them as.

[mp_phonix 0]

Phoenix, you wouldn't happen to live in Sderot, would you?

7 people were wounded in a Kassam rocket attack on Sderot, two rockets fired. And the media call these "home-made missiles". Right... Apparently, home-made missiles require specialized workshops to be produced. And, since they're "home-made" and "crude", they don't do any damage, right?

Well, that's AFP, BBC, New York Post, The Guardian in a nutshell for ya.

No, I live in Ashkelon, where in the last 3 days 3 rockets landed, and IDF launched massive assualt because Ashkelon is the second large city that the terrorist started shooting rockets on it. btw, the first quasam landed in my school.

[Nemesis6 0]

So do you guys have the Red Dawn system in place that warns against incoming rockets and mortars and stuff like that?

[mp_phonix 0]

We have it in the south side of the city, where the industrial zone is located. for now the government don't want to install it in the rest of the city. btw the 2nd rocket landed in a community center about 700m from my house.

[Nemesis6 0]

Ahmadinejad warns of 'Islamic Explosion'

Quote[/b] ]TEHRAN, Iran - Iran’s hard-line president warned Friday that continued Israeli strikes against Palestinians could lead to an Islamic “explosion†targeting Israel and its Western supporters.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told thousands of demonstrators gathered in the capital, Tehran, to condemn the strikes in the Gaza Strip that Israel’s supporters could be the target of revenge by Muslims.

“They should not let things reach a point where an explosion occurs in the Islamic world,†he said. “If an explosion occurs, then it won’t be limited to geographical boundaries. It will also burn all those who created (Israel) over the past 60 years,†he said.

Ahmadinejad once again questioned Israel’s right to exist.

“This is a fake regime ... it won’t be able to survive. I think the only way (forward) is that those who created it (the West) take it away themselves,†the president said.

The only thing he's forgetting is that "Islamic Explosions" are plenty nowadays. They are, in one specific case, called suicide bombings.

Soldier killed in Gaza

His name was Yehuda Bassel. He was killed by a terrorist sniper.

[mp_phonix 0]

That soldier. theres a posibility that he was killed by friendly fire. that's a posibility - nothing has been proved yet.

Another reason to his death was that the rescue could'nt take him because the terrorist layed down heavy fire on the rescures, we had to bring a Uh-60 blackhawk escorted by AH-1 cobra and AH-64 Apache to extract him. bloody terrorist !

btw, the operation to invade the south part of Gaza is called "Rains of Summer"

[Garcia 0]

By the way, Garcia, if they really cared about those houses, their terrorist government would stop their own terrorists from using them as launching sites for sniper attacks, Qassam launchings, and whatever the Jihadis want to use them as.

And if Israel cared so much about mp_phonixs house, they may have acted otherwise. That's just plain BS excuse...

[Nemesis6 0]

And if Israel cared so much about mp_phonixs house, they may have acted otherwise. That's just plain BS excuse...

Umm, Israel doesn't attack the homes of its own citizens. Ahh yes, it's Israel's fault when the PA brainwash their population through media and death cult parades downtown. It's Israel's fault that these people are told that Jews are the brothers of apes and pigs. It's Israel's fault when the Palestinians totally fail to administer the area they've been given back. And of course, to conclude, it's Israel's fault for fighting back.

[Garcia 0]

And if Israel cared so much about mp_phonixs house, they may have acted otherwise. That's just plain BS excuse...

Umm, Israel doesn't attack the homes of its own citizens. Ahh yes, it's Israel's fault when the PA brainwash their population through media and death cult parades downtown. It's Israel's fault that these people are told that Jews are the brothers of apes and pigs. It's Israel's fault when the Palestinians totally fail to administer the area they've been given back. And of course, to conclude, it's Israel's fault for fighting back.

As I suspected, you didn't understand it...I didn't mean that it's Israels fault, it was irony...because...that excuse would be as shitty and as much bullshit as your excuse...

[Jinef 2]

The BBC clearly states when personal bias is broadcast via their assets. Their official news is kept as free as possible from personal bias.

As for detecting bias through the varying use of words like 'terrorists', 'rebels', 'freedom fighters' etc. There is little solid ground. I feel the news outlets should term them all 'combatants' and be done with it.

My reasoning for this is changing perceptions of certain factions and sketchy definitions of terms opposed to the reality of the people they represent. Hmm, that reads like gobbledegook .... ok let me think of some examples.

Northern Ireland - Many factions, many causes and actions. Would it be reasonable to term one faction as terrorists and another as freedom fighters because one targets civilians and the other targets military personnel?

July 4th/American Independence - The British termed the Americans as rebels because they were rebelling against the British Empire. The rebels murdered, raped and looted many civilians in their quest for freedom. Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?

Chechnya - Before 2001 the western world held a stern view to the actions of the Russian Military in Grozny. Allegations of mass graves surfaced. After the collisions in NYC the Russians quite deftly re-defined the Chechnyan Rebels as terrorists and the west turned a blind eye. Ironically, once labelled as terrorists the Chechnyans though nothing of acting up to their new role and targeting Russian civilians.

To be honest, the combatants in the middle east can classify as both rebels and terrorists. But to exclusively define them as either would be incorrect in some cases and counter-productive. Israel could try a new tack and start to label any actions against their infra-structure/military/political sphere as rebel actions, and any actions against residential/civilian populations as terrorist. You would be suprised at the results, as so much in warfare is reliant on the warrior's psyche.

If you label them all as terrorists you encourage terrorism, as they will live up to their roles. To further clarify, if you are a Palestinian combatant and you have the choice of shooting at an Israeli soldier or a little girl, the label you have been given will influence that decision. If you're labelled as a freedom fighter you will most likely see no profit in shooting the girl and go for the soldier, more risky yet more suited to your cause. If you're labelled as a terrorist you will go for the girl, it suits your cause and there is no point risking your life attacking the soldier for his loss has less impact to society.

Makes sense right?

[Donnervogel 0]

Isn't it a bit pathetic to call that sniper a "terrorist" sniper? I mean he didn't attack in Israel. He didn't snipe israelis in Tel Aviv or something. Last time I checked the Israelis intruded into plaestinian territory with military force there in Gaza and not the other way around. Hell what do you expect? Such actions are considered acts of war. And you think everyone defendinding against the Israeli aggression is a terrorist? Maybe he was. Maybe not. But I honestly can't see any reason why you would know that he was one. If you go to war with people you have to expect them shooting back. That doesn't make the defenders terrorists by definition.

[Jinef 2]

Ummm, was that directed at me Donnervogel?

[billybob2002 0]

Isn't it a bit pathetic to call that sniper a "terrorist" sniper? I mean he didn't attack in Israel. He didn't snipe israelis in Tel Aviv or something. Last time I checked the Israelis intruded into plaestinian territory with military force there in Gaza and not the other way around. Hell what do you expect? Such actions are considered acts of war. And you think everyone defendinding against the Israeli aggression is a terrorist? Maybe he was. Maybe not. But I honestly can't see any reason why you would know that he was one. If you go to war with people you have to expect them shooting back. That doesn't make the defenders terrorists by definition.

You of course know that the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC), a terrorist organization who have carried out attacks against Israeli citizens before, claimed that it was their snipers that killed the soldier. You do know that PRC also claimed that they were apart of the military outpost attack, which started the current Israeli offensive, and they were the ones that murdered the 18 year old settler.

Quote[/b] ]July 4th/American Independence - The British termed the Americans as rebels because they were rebelling against the British Empire. The rebels murdered, raped and looted many civilians in their quest for freedom. Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?

There were incidents in which civilians were killed by American forces but I don't recall "many" were killed.

[EiZei 0]

If you label them all as terrorists you encourage terrorism, as they will live up to their roles. To further clarify, if you are a Palestinian combatant and you have the choice of shooting at an Israeli soldier or a little girl, the label you have been given will influence that decision. If you're labelled as a freedom fighter you will most likely see no profit in shooting the girl and go for the soldier, more risky yet more suited to your cause. If you're labelled as a terrorist you will go for the girl, it suits your cause and there is no point risking your life attacking the soldier for his loss has less impact to society.

Sounds awfully rationalized for a crazy religious extremist for me.

[Donnervogel 0]

@Jinef

no, meaning it generally.

@Billybob

Nope didn't know that and didn't find any source on what you claimed in a quick search.

And even if some group claims stuff... they alaways claim everything. Sometimes you have sevral groups claiming the same thing. It's not like I really trust what those organisations claim. Nevertheless it doesn't change the fact that you don't know if he is a terrorist or not. Simply because he is (if he is) a memeber of an "resistance" Organisation doesn't mean he ever carried out terror attacks or helped to carry out any. You see when israel attacks the Gaza strip I can imagine there's lots of people turning to those terror organisations and ask if they can help to fight off the israeli attack. It doesn't automaticly mean that they are long time premium members.

EDIT: My point is. If someone blows up an israeli bus then he certainly was a terrorist. But if someone defends against an insraeli aggression that alone doesn't make him a terrorist. Still the term terrorist is very quickly on the tongues of certain parties.

[Jinef 2]

Quote[/b] ]There were incidents in which civilians were killed by American forces but I don't recall "many" were killed.

You speak truth, the American regular forces (i.e. The Continental Army) did not get into too many bad incidents with civilians, especially after Washington took over. However the unregulated militias and native Americans under the employ of both the rebels and British caused havoc and were feared by civilians on both sides. It was a very unpleasant situation.

Quote[/b] ]Sounds awfully rationalized for a crazy religious extremist for me.

Well, whatever masque the majority of combatants are hiding behind, it will not stand the scrutiny of their concience given time. Or in other words, no matter what crazy fucking ideals people are killing behind, such as Islam, Christianity, Freedom, Apple Pie or Communism; they are still going to have doubts about their actions.

You need to appeal to these doubts, to harness the natural resistance to killing. Not by undermining their religion, or by crushing their homes with tanks, but by legitamising their cause and removing the need for terror tactics.

I was just watching Tony Blair doing a meeting with the house of commons. He was asked to comment on the middle east situation; what he said was quite clever actually. He said something along the lines of:

"We cannot compare this to Northern Ireland, in Northern Ireland there is no clear solution. Simply because you have one group of people wanting to unite with Ireland, and another group wanting to remain as part of great Britain; only held together by a constant deployment of British forces. Now what really frustrates me is that in the Middle East there is a viable solution which is not really hard to achieve. It is viable to have a Palestinian state, they are a dedicated and hard working people and deserve their own country. And Israel deserves security. What is happening now is ghastly, and if only both sides could just take a few steps back and think about what they are doing. It is frustrating."

(Roughly Paraphrased - However I assure you that is what he meant.)

[Jinef 2]

Donnervogel is reinforcing my point somewhat.

It would be wise to use the term terrorist sparingly.

Simply because if you are fighting for your freedom, and the opponent you are fighting declares to the world you are a terrorist, and the whole world now thinks you are a terrorist. What is to stop you from stepping up to your label and start using terror tactics.

> Terror Tactics

The targeting of violence and mistreatment onto the civilian population of the enemy in order to gain a short term advantage.

They can be used on any scale. They rely on the ability of the executors to detach their humanity and escalate the acts of violence to gain a considerable advantage. In a hostage situation demands can be met by threats to do horrible things to hostages, in places like Africa, whole populations can be driven out of an area by several demonstrations of complete inhumanity by an occupying force.

These tactics can be very effective. They can be ineffective.

[Bernadotte 0]

You of course know that the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC), a terrorist organization who have carried out attacks against Israeli citizens before, claimed that it was their snipers that killed the soldier. You do know that PRC also claimed that they were apart of the military outpost attack, which started the current Israeli offensive, and they were the ones that murdered the 18 year old settler.

Would you mind posting a source from the PRC calling itself a terrorist organisation?  I have little doubt that their members have been responsible for acts of terrorism, but then so have former Israeli prime ministers.

If you prefer citing an Israeli source about the PRC then I would ask you for a quote where the Israeli government has ever referred to any Palestinian group as a resistance movement.

It would be wise to use the term terrorist sparingly.

I agree, especially given that entire articles can be posted about the Lavon Affair without mentioning the word "terrorism" even once.  

[Nemesis6 0]

Blast in Gaza home kills three; IDF denies involvement

Quote[/b] ]An explosion near a home in the Sajiyeh neighborhood on the outskirts of Gaza City Saturday night resulted in the deaths of a mother and two of her children, witnesses at the scene said. Some reports put the number of dead as high as six.

According to hospital officials, a six-year-old girl was among the dead, while another six people were wounded.

The IDF responded to initial accusations that an IDF shell had struck the house by saying that it had not been firing in the direction of the house at the time of the incident.

The IDF confirmed, however, that the Air Force had targeted a group of armed Palestinians in the Beit Hanoun area some 10 kilometers to the north, apparently wounding some of them. The IDF added that the air attack occurred prior to the explosion in which the mother and her children were killed

[billybob2002 0]

You of course know that the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC), a terrorist organization who have carried out attacks against Israeli citizens before, claimed that it was their snipers that killed the soldier. You do know that PRC also claimed that they were apart of the military outpost attack, which started the current Israeli offensive, and they were the ones that murdered the 18 year old settler.

Would you mind posting a source from the PRC calling itself a terrorist organisation?  I have little doubt that their members have been responsible for acts of terrorism, but then so have former Israeli prime ministers.

If you prefer citing an Israeli source about the PRC then I would ask you for a quote where the Israeli government has ever referred to any Palestinian group as a resistance movement.

It would be wise to use the term terrorist sparingly.

I agree, especially given that entire articles can be posted about the Lavon Affair without mentioning the word "terrorism" even once.  

I can't find any comments in which they call themselves terrorists. They, however, claimed responsibility for the murder of the Israeli pregnant woman and her children, bombing a school bus with children onboard, shooting at workers going to work, and etc. I believe they, PRC members, conducted more attacks on citizens then military targets and the organization claims responsibility for them.

[Bernadotte 0]

I can't find any comments in which they call themselves terrorists. They, however, claimed responsibility for the murder of the Israeli pregnant woman and her children, bombing a school bus with children onboard, shooting at workers going to work, and etc. I believe they, PRC members, conducted more attacks on citizens then military targets and the organization claims responsibility for them.

The PRC has been primarily focused on attacking Israelis in Gaza.  I could not find any incident of PRC attacks inside Israel's 1967 borders other than the recent tunnel raid/kidnapping.

Naturally, it is morally repugnant for the PRC to have attacked Israeli settler civilians, including women and children.  However, I also find it immoral that Israel has used settler civilians to gain strategic and tactical advantage in the occupied territories.  Human shields anyone?  So, according to Israel's own definition of settlers, the line between military and civilian targets in the occupied lands becomes a bit fuzzy. Unfortunately, the distinction disappears entirely for most Palestinian militants.

[mp_phonix 0]

yes and of course you don't talk about the disangagment plan wich we removed the settlers & the second plan which hasn't being carryd yet to remove a lot of the settlers from the west bank.

[Bernadotte 0]

yes and of course you don't talk about the disangagment plan wich we removed the settlers & the second plan which hasn't being carryd yet to remove a lot of the settlers from the west bank.

Actually, I think you'll find that I was the first to post about it, ~30 months ago.

Keep trying!  

[Nemesis6 0]

Majority Of Palestinians Support Kidnappings, Qassam Attacks

Quote[/b] ]A sizable majority of Palestinians support the continued kidnappings of Israelis as well as persistent Qassam rocket fire as a means to pressure Israel to release Palestinian prisoners, according to a new poll commissioned by the Jerusalem Media and Communication Center, the results of which were released Sunday.

Of the 1,197 respondents from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, 66.8 percent expressed support for further kidnappings of Israeli civilians while 77.2 percent backed the Kerem Shalom tunnel operation and subsequent kidnapping of Israel Defense Forces Corporal Gilad Shalit.

Nonetheless, just 47.7 percent of those polled said they believed the Shalit affair would end positively for the Palestinian side.

The poll also showed that 60 percent of the public supports the continued Qassam rocket fire into Israel as opposed to 36 percent who oppose.

[deanosbeano 0]

and do you think if there was a poll about palestinian kidnappings ,israeli citizens would condemn them in the prsent climate ?. polls like that are just an excuse for right wingers to blow up more civilians and bulldoze houses,imo.

Hundreds of Palestinian 'suspects' have been kidnapped from their homes and will never stand trial