JAM3 - Beta testers

[cornhelium 0]

Hi Ruff,

Nobody's stopping you changing config values for your own personal use mate. You seem to know what you're doing - why not apply to join the beta team? We could use the help

However, MP compatibility is crucially important for OFP's future (ie. join-in-progress in OFP2), so with the limited time available, the focus really needs to be on a single, unified JAM3 that is the same on my computer as it is on yours.

Sounds are a different story - BAS separated these into the JAM_Sounds.pbo so that people can use whatever sounds they want.

...I hope that people will start producing their own versions of the JAM_Sounds.pbo, so there will be more options for users to try.

Cheers,

Cornhelium

[ruff 102]

only thing i think that needs changing is the rifle ammo sd versions since no one can shoot with it, it's too realistic

increase its init speed to 800 or something

jam for me is perfect, improvement of sounds is all it needs really

you can already make your own ammo with little fuss so its very easy to midify

i think sound is the only major thing

[twisted 127]

this sounds so good.

but one question...

should i DL maam 1.3 or wait for JAM3?

i have jam2 so am willing to wait.

lookign forward to such a good project.

[cornhelium 0]

Hi Twisted,

MAAM 1.31 has all the same content as the JAM3 beta2 that we are currently working on. You can get a good idea of what JAM3 will be like by trying MAAM 1.31.

Here is the MAAM1.31 thread.

Cheers,

CH

[AgentFox2 0]

only thing i think that needs changing is the rifle ammo sd versions since no one can shoot with it, it's too realistic

increase its init speed to 800 or something

It's actually unrealistic, since most of the suppressed weapons which have magazines defined in JAM don't use subsonic ammunition, but supersonic. M16s, M4s, MP5s would not use subsonic munitions, and if they did, they would not be zeroed for 400 meters, as JAM's ammo is. The only assault rifle I can think of operationally using subsonic ammo would be the 7.62x39 for the AKM with PBS-1 suppressor, but even then those who operated that sort of weapon would not zero it for 400 meters.

Like I mentioned previously, I think taking a look at the way the Digital Grenade team coded the suppressed M4s in the Marine Assault Pack would be a good reference on how to config the suppressed magazines in JAM.

Hope everyone is doing well.

[ruff 102]

init speed is the same as the non sd and sd version of the earl m4s and both are 874m/s

both earls m4 and m4sd have same init speed and range, only difference is damage. and that's pretty unrealistic since m4s with no supressors would have more range than supressed.

but it really doesn't matter i'll just end changing jam3 to my modifications

there are also alot of supressors aswell some claiming to increase muzzle velocity

i think the one earl uses on his m4s are qd suppressors by knigts armnament not sure though

[cornhelium 0]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the input. Progress continues on the JAM3 beta but at a painfully slow pace due to my new job and studies.

* After trawling high and low through .uax and .pk3 files I've got together a brand new set of pistol sounds (including the Tokarev and Makarov, which previously used BIS sounds), and after some cleaning up and tweaking they sound superb if I do say so myself

* Compatibility with mods like Y2K3 and EECP has been greatly improved, both for JAM units and JAM weapons...man/weapon models & optics are now inherited from the correct base class wherever possible.

Beyond that, I'm not sure how much of the technical stuff I can get into JAM3. I just don't have the time to test out the gameplay results of tweaking the ammo values. Perhaps these can be ongoing issues for incorporation into JAM4, after some tests using MAAM...

Question: Where in the config is the ammo zeroed? Am I right in thinking that this is the distance at which the bullet falls exactly in line with the horizontal crosshair?

Thanks and cheers,

Cornhelium

[ruff 102]

i wouldn't know

would love to know the answer to

[AgentFox2 0]

Optics zero is controlled by

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">distanceZoomMin=400;

distanceZoomMax=400;

in the config of the weapon. The above value is what most of the BIS weapons are set to (M16, AK, etc), and JAM's demonstration weapons inherit directly from these classes without changing the value. So this value is largely outside of JAM's scope (because it is in the weapon code, not magazine).

The problem is that with a low initspeed value (which is unrealistic for many of the weapons supported by JAM), OFP thinks that it HAS to get to whatever the scope distance is set to. So it's just that the initspeed needs adjusting.

In JAM, the muzzle velocity (initspeed) for the 30 round 5.56 mag is

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">initSpeed=874;

But the muzzle velocity for JAM's 30 round 5.56 SD mag is

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">initSpeed=350;

Meanwhile, the muzzle velocity for Earl's non-suppressed M4 mag is the same as JAM's

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">initSpeed=874;

while in Earl's M4 SD mag, this value is

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">initSpeed=744;

You can use subsonic ammunition in the real M4, but the bolt has to be manually cycled for each shot. This is obviously not too acceptable for the role of an assault carbine, so most of the time the suppressed M4/M16s use supersonic bullets. The supersonic "crack" of the bullet is still there, but the shooter's firing position is not revealed.

I think all you would need to do to fix it is change the init speed in most of JAM's suppressed magazines to the value in earl's suppressed mag (744). The other stuff like the range at which the shot can be heard and volume of the shot should probably be tweaked so that the change from subsonic to supersonic is apparent.

The cool thing is that with the changes cornhelium has already made to JAM (sounds coming from bullets in flight) it actually comes pretty close to simulating the supersonic crack of the bullet's flight.

[cornhelium 0]

Hi AF,

Many thanks for that advice. I think I'll go along with that unless anybody has any objections.

Quote[/b] ]The other stuff like the range at which the shot can be heard and volume of the shot should probably be tweaked so that the change from subsonic to supersonic is apparent.

Yeah - this is what's made me wary about messing with the suppressed ammo. I don't want to go ruining any existing missions where stealth with suppressed M4s comes into play (the upcoming Operation Black Mamba for instance makes heavy use of silenced weapons). Currently the medium unsilenced rifle bullet has:

==============================

visibleFire=16;

audibleFire=16;

visibleFireTime=3;

==============================

..while the silenced has:

==============================

visibleFire=0.035;

audibleFire=0.035;

visibleFireTime=2;

==============================

...a very significant difference. I could bump up the visible/audible values a bit, but that could theoretically screw up existing missions by tripping alarm triggers etc when enemy units realise they're being fired on.

Earl's silenced ammo shares the JAM2 vis/audfire settings, but presumably is not intended to simulate subsonic ammo. We could infer from this that 0.035 is a reasonable setting for supersonic silenced ammo.

Suggestion: How about this:

* change the initspeed with the existing JAM Silenced Rifle mags to 744 Å• la Earl's silenced ammo. No change to the visible/audible fire settings.

* add new "subsonic" mags, with 350 initspeed, wherever these values were overwritten with 744.

For example, the available M4 mags would change from:

==============================

JAM_W556_30mag               (init 874)

JAM_W556_30HDmag           (init 874)

JAM_W556_30SDmag           (init 350, aud/visfire 0.035)

JAM_W556_30SDHDmag        (init 350, aud/visfire 0.035)

==============================

To:

==============================

JAM_W556_30mag               (init 874)

JAM_W556_30HDmag           (init 874)

JAM_W556_30SDmag           (init 744, aud/visfire 0.035)

JAM_W556_30SDHDmag        (init 744, aud/visfire 0.035)

JAM_W556_30SUBmag          (init 350, aud/visfire 0.035)

JAM_W556_30SUBHDmag       (init 350, aud/visfire 0.035)

==============================

Then for the very few addons that specifically use subsonic ammo (such as the BAS SR25 SD), the authors would need to update their weapon to use these new SUB mags.

What do you think?

Cheers friends

CH

[AgentFox2 0]

That sounds great to me!

I hadn't thought of the impact changing the firing signatures would make to existing missions. Good catch!

I think creating the extra subsonic ammo for all the suppressed mags would be a great compromise.

Additionally, I just had a thought about the initspeed value. I had forgotten that the 744 value might just be specific to the M4, so I rechecked the Marine config.

M4 Non-SD Initspeed:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">initSpeed=874;

M4 SD Initspeed:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">initSpeed=774;

AK74 Non-SD Initspeed:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">initSpeed=899;

AK74 SD Initspeed:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">initSpeed=764;

AKS74U Non-SD AND SD BOTH Initspeed:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">initSpeed=735;

Obviously not as many of calibers or munition types present in JAM, but there is something of a pattern, at least in the full rifles.

M4 NSD-SD

874-774 = 130

AK74 NSD-SD

899-764 = 135

I dunno how useful that information is, or even if that difference was deliberate, but maybe supersonic SD ammo should be reduced by some approximate amount relative to the non-SD muzzle velocity? Perhaps some testing should be done with that to see if that is an acceptable concept.

Take care.

[SelectThis 0]

How about adding a supersonic suppressed round/mag as a new class? (ie keep the SD as the subsonic and using something like SUP for supersonic ones). That would keep backward compability and enable more choices in the future.

[AgentFox2 0]

How about adding a supersonic suppressed round/mag as a new class? (ie keep the SD as the subsonic and using something like SUP for supersonic ones). That would keep backward compability and enable more choices in the future.

That could work, but only problem then is that many of the larger weapons packs now use the "subsonic" ammunition, when they should be using supersonic. The number of weapons that can use subsonic ammo are a bit fewer than those that use supersonic with a suppressor. So I think in the end the workload for authors who have to change to supersonic versus those who have to change to subsonic is significant. If you keep it as it is, then most suppressed weapons addons utilizing JAM will have to update themselves. If you make the SD mags supersonic, and add a subsonic class, then far less will have to update.

But that's just my opinion.

[Madus_Maximus 0]

I'd personally like to see everything WGL values (ie massively realistic) with JAM compatibility. I'd like to see real muzzle velocities used, real ranges, real dispersion (on the regular ones obviously) real damage values and the like. Timed hand greandes would be nice too, and better sounds.

It'd be nice to have an unbalanced so to speak side in terms of firepower (ie 5.56 being weaker than 5.45, like in reality), because that would mean you'd have to use tactics more for a start. And maybe it could be possible to hard code into the magazines more effective AI shots? Like engaging with single shots at x distance, and blah blah (thinking about it I think that has to be coded into the units themselves, not the weapons/ammo).

Anyway, I'd like to see realism but balanced (balanced in the sense that if you were to compare the two rounds, 5.45 with 5.56 for example in real life, they'd act in similar ways within JAM even if one is more potent than the other.)

[cornhelium 0]

Quote[/b] ]How about adding a supersonic suppressed round/mag as a new class? (ie keep the SD as the subsonic and using something like SUP for supersonic ones). That would keep backward compability and enable more choices in the future.

Hi STT

I read you, but personally am with AgentFox on this one. AFAIK the BAS SR25SD is the only JAM weapon that is supposed to reflect RL subsonic rounds - therefore it's simpler to change just that than, say, the M4SDs in ORCS US Weapon pack and Earl's JAMmed weapons.

Of course, ultimately it's your call. Backward compatibility is king, but I don't see that changing just the initspeed would affect that.

Cheers

CH

[stgn 39]

The M4 has, acording to Colt, a muzzel speed of 884 mps. Acording to FM(field manual) TM9-1005-319-23, 905 mps.

As the M4 can't use SD ammo you use normal ammo in surpressors and a surpressor like the QD from the SOPMOD kit adds 30-50 mps to the bullet speed(too bad the QD is not that accurate and is off taget by 4-12 MOA).

@Madus_Maximus, can you cive me a source on that 5.56 vs 5.45 cause the only thing I was able to find was that 5.56 had longer range and was more precis and that the way it damaged was worse than the 5.45.

STGN

[ruff 102]

i agree to the new init speeds

just make sure non supressed m4s init speed is 874 to 884

since colt is saying that it's 884m/s

@stgn

it really depends on barrel length and type of 5.56 bullet you use

here 5.56ammo

http://www.thegunzone.com/556faq.html

and some guys i asked at the militaryphotos website

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=39217&start=0

[ruff 102]

where did you get info on the qd supressors and it's ballistics?

been trying to find baliistic effects on those

nearly drove me crazy

give us some websites

@agent fox2

Quote[/b] ]

Optics zero is controlled by

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">distanceZoomMin=400;

distanceZoomMax=400;

thanks man

it helps alot zeroing my personal ofp weapons

[stgn 39]

@ruff

I know how the barrel lenth infects on the 5.56, it was just funny too hear a smaller bullet should be more powerfull?

Here Surefire suppressors read the article on "Suppressors Science"  interesting read, one should just note that this is and compeating company altho I have heard they make the best suppressors.

STGN

[Anunnaki 0]

Hi, i have problem with JAM/JAM2/MAAM ... or maybe next idea. Problem is, that i have weapon pack where are the following weapons:

M16A4 (moded M16A2 = that the weapon can now have all accesories from M4A1). This M16A4 is very accurate in real, have SINGLE and BURST mode. Next weapon that is there is M4A1. Well, this weapon is made from older M16A3, and have SINGLE, and FULLAUTO mode. Have shorted barrel too. And of course this weapon is not so accurate as M16A4(or older M16A2). But both weapons can youse the same magazine in real. But with JAM is that not possible i think, because definition of DISPERSION, RECOIL are defined in the JAM/MAA magazine, and when both weapons use the same magazine, have same parameters (acc, dispersion and soo). Have you thing how can you that resolve ? My idea: make pls new def. of one Magazine for both M16/M4A1 (all versions) but! in deffinition of MODES in mags make more choices. Make there "Single A","Single B","Single C","Burst A","Burst B","Burst C","FullAuto A" ...and soo. A means lower recoil and dispersion and more acc (like for M16A2 or M16A4 or AK74S). B is normal, for Ak74, M16A1/A3 or A2/A4 with equiped GL and other things which make weapon "less stable" (recoil). And last C is for weapons for short range (like short barrels and more equiped accesories) like AKS74-U, AK74-U, AK47,AKM, M4A1 and all with GL. I mean that the WEAPON addon CREATOR can use the same MAGAZINE from JAM/MAAM but only specifi there in weapons deff. which "mode" can use the weapon like: modes[]={"Single B","FullAutoB"};. I hope this is one of the latest thinks that can make usable this JAM/MAAM for all addons maker. (this all you must make 2x, one for normal disp. and second magazine HD with higher dispersion). THX. Anunnaki

[Anunnaki 0]

The same you can make for SD ammo ... i mean enought are 3 class of "accurate and dispersion" of weapons. A, B, C. You can than make another magazine deffinition dor SD bullets, of course next A, B, C class too, but with other "accuracy and dispersion" ... the same for other guns. Maybe is the time to leave OLD def. of magazine in JAM2/MAAM and in JAM3 append to end this new deffs of new MAGAZINES. But i hope better marked. Something like JAM_W556x51_30rd_xxxx_v1 where xxxx are: NN-notsilenced/normal, SN-silenced/normal, NH-notsilenced/highdisp,SH-silenced/highdisp. At the end you add version of magazine. Next time when in JAM4 we want something changed (maybe realistic disp or recoil and soo) yo make the same mag name and at the end you add _v2 ... . But all defs of new magazines must have 3 class A,B,C ...than weapon addon creator can choice in weapon defs, which magazine from JAM3 can use his weapon and how high is accurate and how recoil have nad soo be definition of (for M4A1 SOPOD) modes[]={"Single C","Auto C"}; A-long barels and very precise acc weapons, B - middle-normal class for long barels but not so accurate like A group or equiped with GL and other acessories, C - for all shortbarell weapons and soo.

[SelectThis 0]

Interesting ideas Anunnaki, but there could be problems with the approach. I've had problems (CTDs) with weapons that had different modes than what was defined by the magazine.

Let's just hope that for OFP2 the ballistics/sounds are controlled by the weapon config rather than the magazine config.

re: Sub v Super sonic rounds...

Just changing the init speed would not be realistic, the AI detection values would need to be adjusted to allow for the supersonic crack (discussed earlier). This would have an effect on existing missions. To not change the AI detection values would cause an imbalance and make stealth weapons too powerful.

The way we compensated for the lower AI detection in JAM2 was via the lower init speed, meaning it is harder to aim at long ranges, making you get closer to get a good shot off.

This site has interestinge information:

Diagram of Noise Pattern

Trial Data

Lots of other good info to be found there as well.

re: zeroing

note that the min/max values used do not represent the actual "zero" range of the weapon. ie putting 400 in does not mean that it is zeroed at 400m. The only way I could get a true zero (say at 200m) was by trial and error. The actual value used would be affected by init speed and the p3d model and texture used for the scopeview.

SelectThis

[ruff 102]

@ruff

I know how the barrel lenth infects on the 5.56, it was just funny too hear a smaller bullet should be more powerfull?

Here Surefire suppressors read the article on "Suppressors Science"  interesting read, one should just note that this is and compeating company altho I have heard they make the best suppressors.

STGN

thanks

but did they test the qd supressors the sopmod kit uses?

theres also other stuff in the bullet man. i read it also depends on the powder used/casing etc.

[ruff 102]

Interesting ideas Anunnaki, but there could be problems with the approach. I've had problems (CTDs) with weapons that had different modes than what was defined by the magazine.

Let's just hope that for OFP2 the ballistics/sounds are controlled by the weapon config rather than the magazine config.

re: Sub v Super sonic rounds...

Just changing the init speed would not be realistic, the AI detection values would need to be adjusted to allow for the supersonic crack (discussed earlier). This would have an effect on existing missions. To not change the AI detection values would cause an imbalance and make stealth weapons too powerful.

The way we compensated for the lower AI detection in JAM2 was via the lower init speed, meaning it is harder to aim at long ranges, making you get closer to get a good shot off.

This site has interestinge information:

Diagram of Noise Pattern

Trial Data

Lots of other good info to be found there as well.

re: zeroing

note that the min/max values used do not represent the actual "zero" range of the weapon. ie putting 400 in does not mean that it is zeroed at 400m. The only way I could get a true zero (say at 200m) was by trial and error. The actual value used would be affected by init speed and the p3d model and texture used for the scopeview.

SelectThis

744ms is not that fast for init speed of the sd ammo

the hit values are already low and if they change normal mag ranges to 300 to 400 or 350 and keep sd mags 250m or 200m less it would all even out

it's just that the current sd mag you cant shoot it properly past 100m

also someone said it was not realistic to some extent

also sd ammo usually goes faster than normal ones, my current m4 sd mag init speed is 810ms and i finish those mags way faster than a normal 5.56 mag due to less hit value

so having a init speed of 744ms is alrite as long as the hit values don't go up

[cornhelium 0]

Hi STT,

Fair comment. I'll do as you suggest and add the supersonicSD ("SDSUP") mags, leaving the existing mags as they are.

It they want to, addonmakers can easily change their suppressed weapons to use the new SDSUP mags.

Cheers,

CH

Ps. From your experience with weapon values, what kind of vis/audfire settings do you think the new SDSUP mags should have?

P.p.s. Request: I'd really like to get some sounds from Americas Army (the latest full version), but I don't have broadband and it's 750mb+. Is there anybody in the UK who would be willing to copy it for me please, if I sent them a DVD-R and Stamped Addressed Envelope? Thanks