Romance of 3 kingdoms

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Everyone saying that Taiwan is a shining beacon of light - may I remind people that Taiwan is where Tschiang Kai Schek (yet another US-sponsored and failed dictator) fled to?

To me its an internal conflict and nobody has any business sticking their nose into it.

[D34N 0]

Nukeing don't solve anything, just make things worse

Of course, I was just saying that something could stop China from being a superpower.

That may be now ,but China is a booming economy ,bound to become a hughe economical player in the future ,this trade will surely boom to.

Yes, but I dont believe the EU is going to widen the lead much unless the EU is unified into one very large nation.

thus as long as China evolve's at it is doing it will become the largest superpower in the world ,and any technoligy we don't sll to them they will eventually develop themselfs.

China will beome a superpower.. but I dont envision it becoming a USA anytime soon. (Both in Military and Standard of Living) "Any Technology we dont seel them they'll develop themselves" eh? BAHhahhaha!! sorry about that.. any technology we dont sell them they will STEAL They copied the Hummer, they copied the mig-21 (J-7) they copy Korean cars they copy a lot of things. You seem to confuse "China" with "America" or "Japan". IMO the most technically advanced part of China is Taiwan.. plus thats where all my PC parts come from.

You don't seem to understand ,Taiwan as a national state doesn't really exist ,the official name of that country is to this date The ROC ,Republic of China.Only a minority in Taiwan really want's to establish a Taiwanese nationalist state and taiwanese nationality.

I understand well, one of my friends wants a Taiwanese state.. He knows much more about Taiwan/China than I do.. these are just my opinions.

[/i]The thought is that the more we support china to modernise ,the faster it will become semi-democratic and the faster that the Republic of China will loose it's reason for existance.

another thing to point out is that the more evolved China is the faster new evolvement's will come ,china's evolution in the last 60 years is cummulative.

China will not become a "USA" for at least 150 years.. if it ever does.

To me its an internal conflict and nobody has any business sticking their nose into it.

I partially agree.. the US shouldn't have any part in the talks.. but the US Navy should be right behind Taiwan covering its back.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]"Any Technology we dont seel them they'll develop themselves"

eh? BAHhahhaha!! sorry about that.. any technology we dont sell them they will STEAL They copied the Hummer, they copied the mig-21 (J-7) they copy Korean cars they copy a lot of things. You seem to confuse "China" with "America" or "Japan". IMO the most technically advanced part of China is Taiwan.. plus thats where all my PC parts come from.

Youre being ignorant IMO ,yes at this point there are still almost a generation behind in millitary technoligy ,mind you 50 years ago they were 5 generations behind and a 100 years ago they were 20 generations behind ,the conclusion is that China is getting up to par with us much faster than we develop new technoligy.

There is also the precedent of other Asian country's that have modernize'd that eventually have shown to be economical and technological tigers once the were modernized ,Japan modernized at a lightning rate after the Meiji restoration and is now one of the technologicly most advanced country's in the world. (if not THE most advanced) Taiwan once it was modernized became such a tiger itself to.

What you are implying is almost saying that Chinese in essence are only able to copy and not to invent themselfs ,a grave underestimation of the Chinese people and it's powerfull society.May i remind you that ,before of the age of colonialism ,China was the most advanced country in the world for over 5000 years? An extreme amount of inventions trough history were made in China and eventually flew over to Europe ,gunpowder jsut being a small example.In fact the creation of the silk route by the Mongol empire in the 13-14th century that effectivly oppened up a continues secure land route from Europe to China was one of the major factor's why Europe could get itself out of the dark middle ages into the more modern times ,the Silk route could almost be called the technoligy route and is an important foundation of the Europe's world supremacy 5-6 century's later. China lost it's technological lead because it shut itself of from the whole world around 1500AD.

When it comes to it though ,Chinese are able to perform massive feats. The chinese wall is an everlasting testimony of that ,being the only building seeable from space ,the most grandest structure ever made.

The recent building of the 3 gorges dam and partially completion ,the largest dam in the world now ,is also one of this typical chinese feat's ,and believe me ,it was build by chinese engineers.

believe me ,once China is up to par with the western world ,it won't take a long time before they start to leap technologicly ahead of us.

Quote[/b] ]China will not become a "USA" for at least 150 years.. if it ever does.

well i hope so for China ,i wouldn't wish for Europe neither to become an "USA" ,frankly the social and political structure of the USA these days shouldn't be an object of envy or example anymore ,the whole ellectoral system and the 2 party monopoly isn't ex. the most perfect system in the world ,and the way the uSA is politicly evolving isn't exactly settling neither ,retractions of rights of privacy ,right's of thing's like gay marriage ,religious fanatism ,coorperate influence in politic's ,limited and decreasign social support ,all these thing's don't make me thing the USA is getting more democraticly healthy.

If youre talking on how fast China will reach our level and pass us by economicly/millitary ,then i would guess inabout 20-30 years ,if youre talking about democracy ,then i guess it could take many decade's more.

But the future is to country's like India and China ,they are the superpowers of the future ,IMO however The USA is more lickely to see faster decline on this level than the EU ,atleast the EU is expanding politicly and economicly ,The USA seems to have got it's xinith of power though IMO and is now started in a gradual decline ,it's power over resources ,it 's decline of it's economy ,it's self destruction of it's democratic ideal's and the growing extremism of various sorts in it's society seems to be a symptom of that.

IMO ,the US should better stop their support for Taiwan ,it can only bring them in further conflict with China ,there are more dangerous country's ,like North korea for instance.

[D34N 0]

There is also the precedent of other Asian country's that have modernize'd that eventually have shown to be economical and technological tigers once the were modernized ,Japan modernized at a lightning rate after the Meiji restoration and is now one of the technologicly most advanced country's in the world. (if not THE most advanced)

Yes, but Japan had quite an intervention by 'some western nation which I forget the name of' after World War 2.

What you are implying is almost saying that Chinese in essence are only able to copy and not to invent themselfs ,a grave underestimation of the Chinese people and it's powerfull society.

i'm not saying the Chinese cant invent great things.. however if they cant do better or they just if they just flat out want to then they will steal and copy other designs.. I'm sure you will go on to say that european nations stole designs from China.

well i hope so for China ,i wouldn't wish for Europe neither to become an "USA" ,frankly the social and political structure of the USA these days shouldn't be an object of envy or example anymore ,the whole ellectoral system and the 2 party monopoly isn't ex. the most perfect system in the world ,and the way the uSA is politicly evolving isn't exactly settling neither ,retractions of rights of privacy ,right's of thing's like gay marriage ,religious fanatism ,coorperate influence in politic's ,limited and decreasign social support ,all these thing's don't make me thing the USA is getting more democraticly healthy.

What I meant was our standard of living and the opportunities almost anyone with a dream that works hard can achieve it.. in short, you wont see any Mexicans or Cubans heading to China for a better life.

If youre talking on how fast China will reach our level and pass us by economicly/millitary ,then i would guess inabout 20-30 years ,if youre talking about democracy ,then i guess it could take many decade's more.

*Scratches off Military*

I suppose its possible (economically). as for militarily.. thats a funny joke.

The USA seems to have got it's xinith of power though IMO and is now started in a gradual decline ,it's power over resources ,it 's decline of it's economy ,it's self destruction of it's democratic ideal's and the growing extremism of various sorts in it's society seems to be a symptom of that.

May I remind you that we (US) are still the wealthiest nation on Earth (By far and then some.. and then somemore) The economy is doing better.. but the doller is sputtering a bit.

IMO ,the US should better stop their support for Taiwan ,it can only bring them in further conflict with China ,there are more dangerous country's ,like North korea for instance.

Whats China gonan do aobut it if we stand behind Taiwan?, attack? I think not.. why would China screw itself over when its becoming a superpower.. I believe you over estimate the abilities of the Chinese Military.

If they were to attack Taiwan this is what would happen

Chinese Navy=Pwned by US Subs

I saw a good article on what would happen in China invaded.. I'll try to find it.

EDIT: I cant seem to find the article.. but here is a thread at a forum where I post..

Here. (Page 5)

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]i'm not saying the Chinese cant invent great things.. however if they cant do better or they just if they just flat out want to then they will steal and copy other designs.. I'm sure you will go on to say that european nations stole designs from China.

Nothing wrong in copying and stealing. It frees up cash for other projects and is very cost effective compared to having to go the long way of "inventing" all the time. And you really shouldn't underestimate the chineese! They've put a man in orbit around the earth and if you think they're behind technology-wise then you're seriously wrongly informed!

You should also consider a few things though about military technology. It's not the best hardware that wins the war. More often than not it's the deployment of masses of relatively cheap and unsophisticated hardware and troops en masse that's the decisive blow towards an oponent. Just think about the russians human waves and cheapo tanks on the eastern front. If it's good enough to get the job done, then it's not a must with "cutting edge rocket science" !

Quote[/b] ]What I meant was our standard of living and the opportunities almost anyone with a dream that works hard can achieve it.. in short, you wont see any Mexicans or Cubans heading to China for a better life.

Like this you mean? :

Quote[/b] ]The number of Americans in poverty rose by 1.3 million to 35.9 million, or one in eight people.

Link

Quote[/b] ]*Scratches off Military*

I suppose its possible (economically). as for militarily.. thats a funny joke.

Not a joke at all. China is on the rise - and fast! If you think it's not possible to become a military superpower within 30 years you should perhaps ask the responsible for the Versailles treaty how well they succeded with prohibiting Germany's effort to become militarily superior towards pretty much anyone back then (at the outbrake of the war) .

Quote[/b] ]May I remind you that we (US) are still the wealthiest nation on Earth (By far and then some.. and then somemore) The economy is doing better.. but the doller is sputtering a bit.

Nation yes, continent no!

Your economy is heading downwards. Your dollar is dragging you there and your enormous budget deficits (caused by Bushywushy) isn't exactly helping!

Quote[/b] ]Whats China gonan do aobut it if we stand behind Taiwan?, attack? I think not.. why would China screw itself over when its becoming a superpower.. I believe you over estimate the abilities of the Chinese Military.

If they were to attack Taiwan this is what would happen

Chinese Navy=Pwned by US Subs

Not so! USA would not help Taiwan out if China made a move! Remember Bush's stupid comment about that scenario? Guess he had to take it back! The only thing USA will do is what it's doing right now and that is to help Taiwan with cheap military hardware - but not any hardware. I remember a year or two back when China protested against US selling Tawan top of the line radar/rocket technology.

Guess who decided not to sell after all?

[D34N 0]

Nothing wrong in copying and stealing. It frees up cash for other projects and is very cost effective compared to having to go the long way of "inventing" all the time. And you really shouldn't underestimate the chineese! They've put a man in orbit around the earth and if you think they're behind technology-wise then you're seriously wrongly informed!

Yes, well I see stealing as bad, did you buy OFP?, why not just steal/DLit and 'save up money for other games'. AS for the taikonaut in space. The rocket was a COPY of the Russian Soyuz!!

More often than not it's the deployment of masses of relatively cheap and unsophisticated hardware and troops en masse that's the decisive blow towards an oponent. Just think about the russians human waves and cheapo tanks on the eastern front. If it's good enough to get the job done, then it's not a must with "cutting edge rocket science" !

Yes the last time the Chinese did it was the Korean War.. then we invented the mini-gun..(Metal Storm would work too!) I doubt China would be that stupid to attack in human waves.. they are better than that.

Not a joke at all. China is on the rise - and fast! If you think it's not possible to become a military superpower within 30 years you should perhaps ask the responsible for the Versailles treaty how well they succeded with prohibiting Germany's effort to become militarily superior towards pretty much anyone back then (at the outbrake of the war)

Thats like compairing apples to koala's. Germany had extreme industrial might, I'd venture a guess that a good part of China's industrial might is used for making products in other countries!

Not so! USA would not help Taiwan out if China made a move! Remember Bush's stupid comment about that scenario? Guess he had to take it back! The only thing USA will do is what it's doing right now and that is to help Taiwan with cheap military hardware - but not any hardware. I remember a year or two back when China protested against US selling Tawan top of the line radar/rocket technology.

Guess who decided not to sell after all?

I disagree. Even if the US doesn't attack the whole world would impose sanctions on China.. then China would have some problems.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

If you use a weapon made in europe then at least only the enemy dies. But if those poor chinese soldiers use equipment "made in china" then I may assume everyone might blow up, even them

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yes, well I see stealing as bad, did you buy OFP?, why not just steal/DLit and 'save up money for other games'.

I don't see stealing on a national level as wrong per se! It's the name of the game really and we all do it! If you don't take steps towards it then sorry for you!

On an individual level it's moraly wrong of course! I payed for my OFP copy and I'm proud to say that even though there are many faults with me I'm sure - I can at least say I've never stolen anything at all in my life (except your precious time on the forum that is) .

Quote[/b] ]AS for the taikonaut in space. The rocket was a COPY of the Russian Soyuz!!    

Oh I see, easy as that! I suppose they just stole the blueprints or copyed it from some old photographs and set up a small rocketproducing workshop in the backyard. No research and certainly no need for tehcnology!

Quote[/b] ]Yes the last time the Chinese did it was the Korean War.. then we invented the mini-gun..(Metal Storm would work too!) I doubt China would be that stupid to attack in human waves.. they are better than that.

Of course not! It was meant as an illustration! My point is that you don't need top of the line technology when it's not needed. If you have millions and millions of soldiers, tanks, fighters etc and it's all cheap to replace then you'll win.

Quote[/b] ]Thats like compairing apples to koala's. Germany had extreme industrial might, I'd venture a guess that a good part of China's industrial might is used for making products in other countries!

China's industrial might is used for making products for other countries. What makes you think that they're not able to build carriers with modern fighters when they have A : the technology and B : the largest shipyards in the world?

You don't need ten thousand M1A1 when you can have a hundred thousand M60's !

Quote[/b] ]I disagree. Even if the US doesn't attack the whole world would impose sanctions on China.. then China would have some problems.  

US won't help in other ways than supplying weapons - and that's it!

China doesn't need anything at all! It lacks nothing! It has oil, coal, metals, food, people and the list goes on!

Of course, everyone needs friends and that's why China's policy nowadays is  a lot more friendly than your own governments.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yes, well I see stealing as bad, did you buy OFP?, why not just steal/DLit and 'save up money for other games'. AS for the taikonaut in space. The rocket was a COPY of the Russian Soyuz!!

This point you make however dumb it seems to me has absolutly no relevance to the original section of the discussion the quoted point was made ,with other words that even if China steals some tech's from other country's it doesn't mean it can rise to a level that it will be technologicly on par with other modern country's or later even more advanced ,this remark you make rather is touching on some weird morallity issue you would have with copying technoligy ,something that has been done by all country's over the world in the course of history ,even USA.

As an ex. ,i wonder how long it would have take the USA to put a man in space themselfs if it wasn't for the V2 rocket technoligy of that German man Werner von Braun ,lest to speak of all other technoligy the USA stole from defeated Nazi Germany. Or how easy it would have develloped nukes withough people like Einstein or Oppenheimer.

Quote[/b] ]Yes the last time the Chinese did it was the Korean War.. then we invented the mini-gun..(Metal Storm would work too!) I doubt China would be that stupid to attack in human waves.. they are better than that.

China has a manpower 5 to 6 times larger than the US ,and when modernized an industrial and financial potential of that magnitude to. Human waves in the WW2 context is just an ex. ,a more modern ex. would be to let 1 abrams battle it out against 5 T72's ,i figure (takingout of account all other factor's like aerial reconnaisance etc that usually influence such tank battles) the T72's will win.

Manpower is one if not the most determinal factor in war.A simple conclusion can be drawn from the WWII experience of Japan VS china ,while Japan was far more technologicly advanced and millitary organized than China ,it still couldn't beat it due to the pressence of extreme chinese numbers ,it couldn't beat the Chinese forces ,and even if they could have they wouldn't have been able to control that whole poppulation.

Even if you are far more advanced ,beating odd's of 5 VS 1 is almost impossible.

Quote[/b] ]Thats like compairing apples to koala's. Germany had extreme industrial might, I'd venture a guess that a good part of China's industrial might is used for making products in other countries!

At the beginning of the weimar years and especially when 1929 broke Germany was bankrupted ,it's industry in a decaying state and a massive unemployement rate.What made Germany come back was determination for one and foremost ,and putting of the killing war immendity's that gave some space again for economic growth.That said those limitations for growth don't exist in China ,and the simple fact is that in the last 20 years China has progressed economicly in hughe leap's ,there are no factor's present to think that this evolution wouldn't continue in the next 20 years.

[kerosene 0]

This thing about stealing technology, I thought a lot of it was licensed. Also, what exactly does the E.U arms ban against China consist of. Is it absolute or do we sell them parts, or is it like British exports to Indonesia, where the government there promises not to use them in internal repression, then nothing happens when they do?

Dosent China have next to no natural oil reserves of its own? That constrains their actions to a certain degree.

[D34N 0]

As an ex. ,i wonder how long it would have take the USA to put a man in space themselfs if it wasn't for the V2 rocket technoligy of that German man Werner von Braun ,lest to speak of all other technoligy the USA stole from defeated Nazi Germany. Or how easy it would have develloped nukes withough people like Einstein or Oppenheimer.

Von Braun worked with the Americans who designed their rocket, Einstein and Oppenheimer built the nuke with billions of dollars of US funding.. We didn't steal those ideas.. we took them and made them better and to fit the US' needs.

China has a manpower 5 to 6 times larger than the US ,and when modernized an industrial and financial potential of that magnitude to. Human waves in the WW2 context is just an ex. ,a more modern ex. would be to let 1 abrams battle it out against 5 T72's ,i figure (takingout of account all other factor's like aerial reconnaisance etc that usually influence such tank battles) the T72's will win.

That all depends on which varient the Chinese copied from the Russians, and what makess you think that China would have the capablity of taking out all our aerial recon?, thats a huge 'if', also I'd doubt it if an Abrams ever made it on Chinese soil its just too big.

Manpower is one if not the most determinal factor in war.A simple conclusion can be drawn from the WWII experience of Japan VS china ,while Japan was far more technologicly advanced and millitary organized than China ,it still couldn't beat it due to the pressence of extreme chinese numbers ,it couldn't beat the Chinese forces ,and even if they could have they wouldn't have been able to control that whole poppulation.

Even if you are far more advanced ,beating odd's of 5 VS 1 is almost impossible.

No its not.

Man power means virtually nothing(Keyword virtually).. throw three peasants with an AK at a US Soldier and they peasants are dead, training means a lot too. IMO The Brits are the Best Trained, the Germans have the Best Guns and the Sweds have the best Armor. But they dont have them in large numbers. The US has weapons/soldiers/equipment thats arent always the best but we have so many that it doesnt really matter.

The key is not numbers, but endurance and will.. Ho Chi Minh said (I'm paraphrasing): 'You can kill 10 of us for everyone one of you we kill, and we will still win'.

brgnorway:

Oh I see, easy as that! I suppose they just stole the blueprints or copyed it from some old photographs and set up a small rocketproducing workshop in the backyard. No research and certainly no need for tehcnology!

Quote

Well I figured that if you knew that they went into space that you'd know that it was in a 'Chinese' Soyuz.

Of course not! It was meant as an illustration! My point is that you don't need top of the line technology when it's not needed. If you have millions and millions of soldiers, tanks, fighters etc and it's all cheap to replace then you'll win.

They have millions of bodies.. but who says they could match the training?, that have tens of thousands of tanks and fighters.. but that doesnt matter when they're getting blown up by B-2's and F-35's and shot out of the sky by F-22's

China's industrial might is used for making products for other countries. What makes you think that they're not able to build carriers with modern fighters when they have A : the technology and B : the largest shipyards in the world?

You don't need ten thousand M1A1 when you can have a hundred thousand M60's !

Because 1. They could never build a nuclear carrier even nearly as good as the current Nimitz Class or in large numbers without going broke, and 2 they'd get owned by F-18's.

US won't help in other ways than supplying weapons - and that's it!

China doesn't need anything at all! It lacks nothing! It has oil, coal, metals, food, people and the list goes on!

Of course, everyone needs friends and that's why China's policy nowadays is a lot more friendly than your own governments.

1. China Imports the second most amount of oil in the world behind the US

2. If people stopped buying and making contracts with China then they would loose Hundreds of Billions.. possibly trillions in trade.. it doesnt matter that China is supposedly self-sufficient as you put it, but that if sanctions are imposed then China cant make money because it cant trade!

[Pathy 0]

I can see why the US is paranoid of China. They are due to be overtaken as the worlds superpower and it would be a very bitter pill for the US to swallow, that is, not being the #1 nation in the world.

(if you dont believe me, start talking to an American on MSN, then casually drop in that your nation is better at something (it can be anything, even minor), then stand back and enjoy the fireworks.....)

[D34N 0]

Apperantly I'm the only one in this thread that knows what a superpower means.

A powerful and influential nation, especially a nuclear power that dominates its allies or client states in an international power bloc.

Will the US lose some influence?, Yes. Will it still be a superpower? Yes.

[Pathy 0]

And apparently your the only one here that doesnt read/understand other peoples posts as well. The US will still be a superpower.....So? It may still be a superpower, but with China growing, it won't be the leading one.

Did i claim any more than that? No.

[theavonlady 2]

Will the US lose some influence?, Yes.

Not only that but the US is better than anyone else at losing influence!

[Pathy 0]

Will the US lose some influence?, Yes.

Not only that but the US is better than anyone else at losing influence!

Ahaahahahahahahahahahhaha........god my sides are bursting

[D34N 0]

I can see why the US is paranoid of China. They are due to be overtaken as the worlds superpower and it would be a very bitter pill for the US to swallow, that is, not being the #1 nation in the world.

"Worlds Superpower"

And apparently your the only one here that doesnt read/understand other peoples posts as well. The US will still be a superpower.....So? It may still be a superpower, but with China growing, it won't be the leading one.

Hmm.. Well you said "Worlds Superpower" is in "one" superpower.. or at leasts thats how I interpreted it.. sorry flunked "Understanding poorly worded sentences 101"

Also your claim that China would be the #1 country in the world is also poorly worded.. #1 economy? Yes. #1 Military. Hell no. #1 Standard of Life?. Sorry.. No.

EDIT: Congrats on 1500!

[Pathy 0]

As you congratulated me ill remove my nastier comments.:;):

Worlds superpower = most powerfull nation in the world.

US is currently that, China will be in about 10 years, at the current growth rates. US will still be a superpower. But China will be the leading one

Simple? Ok.

Now lets go though your arguments.

Economically, we agree China will be top.

Militarily? China has an army of ~1 million men, it has advanced tanks, advanced aircraft. The only thing it lacks is an advanced Navy. But that can be fixed with time. And if your the worlds #1 economy, its also alot easier to fund those advanced weapons.

Standard of life: Fair enough, but being a superpower is not based upon how the average person in that country lives (if it is, then russia was NEVER a superpower) its based upon being able to project your influence over other countries.

[D34N 0]

Worlds superpower = most powerfull nation in the world.

I suppose China could have more political influence than the US.. but if it did I doubt it would be much more..

US is currently that, China will be in about 10 years, at the current growth rates. US will still be a superpower. But China will be the leading one

Leading superpower?, I here is the way I see it if sides were chosen:

USA's Allies:

UK

France ( )

Germany

Japan

Israel

Well most of the EU and NATO

Russia is up for grabs

China:

North Korea

Singapore

Iran

and other pacific-island countries.

There are probably more.. help me fill them in..

Militarily? China has an army of ~1 million men, it has advanced tanks, advanced aircraft. The only thing it lacks is an advanced Navy. But that can be fixed with time. And if your the worlds #1 economy, its also alot easier to fund those advanced weapons.

Advanced tanks?

China has about 1,000 Type-90 and Type-90 Tanks combined.. tanks that are not as good as the Abrams, mind you there are 5,000 Abrams.

Advanced Aircraft?

They have the Chinese Varients of the SU-27 and SU-30 which are very good planes and can out perfrom F-15's and F-16's.. yet they dont hold a candle to F-35's or F-22's

Comparable Bombers? No.

Troops? they have more than a million.. the US has more than a million.. the US has better training.. Better Equipment.. this wont change for awhile.. that why the US made the B-2 and the F-22.. to ensure supremacy for a long time.. we just havent seen what comes after them yet.

The US Spends nearly 400Billion $$$ a year on the military.. China Claims they only spend 60Bill.. but most believe its more like 80-100B. Go to USFY2003 to FY2009 the US will spend 119Bill more in '09 than in '03

Link. Even if the US wastes 200Billion(Exaggerated estimate to prove a point) in FY05 thats still 99.8 billion more than the Chinese.. of course this doesnt factor in the low-wages the Chinese could/do pay.

Standard of life: Fair enough, but being a superpower is not based upon how the average person in that country lives (if it is, then russia was NEVER a superpower) its based upon being able to project your influence over other countries.

Yes, but you said They are due to be overtaken as the worlds superpower and it would be a very bitter pill for the US to swallow, that is, not being the #1 nation in the world. My 'standard of life' post was an arguement to China being "#1"

Thats like me saying "USA! USA! USA!" America Rulezzz Ch1na Smells 0mGWTFuX0r?!? I think some people just want to see America be weak, not be "#1" and fail..

EDIT: Flurry of Typos!

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well I figured that if you knew that they went into space that you'd know that it was in a 'Chinese' Soyuz.

No I didn't and I have to say I can't think of a single person I know that's aware of the fact that it's a copy! Do you realy find that strange?

I think you got my point though! China has enough knowledge and technology to send a man into orbit. It takes quite an effort and a certain level of technology and knowhow!

It's not as if Uganda or Eritrea could do the same given the blueprints and material resources!

Quote[/b] ]They have millions of bodies.. but who says they could match the training?, that have tens of thousands of tanks and fighters.. but that doesnt matter when they're getting blown up by B-2's and F-35's and shot out of the sky by F-22's

Again you assume they are not as well trained as you! We simply do not know and furthermore I'd say the chineese have proved before to be very diciplined soldiers.

I have no illusions about their technological inferiority compared to the US Airforce - for now! That can very well change in the next twenty to thirty years. US is not the only ones making fighters in the world. If even small nations like Sweden can make a modern fighter and the european nations also albeit difficulties in cooperating I guess China could too!

Quote[/b] ]Because 1. They could never build a nuclear carrier even nearly as good as the current Nimitz Class or in large numbers without going broke, and 2 they'd get owned by F-18's.

How on earth do you imagine they would end up broke? The cheapest labour costs in the world and an economy about to surpass your very own in a few years makes me think you are wrong!

[Grizzlie 0]

I think that most important thing is not about selling weapons, but selling military technologies.

As we all know China is big exporter of weapons. As i can say EU countries or USA RATHER sell weapons to RATHER stable countries, that China was selling weapons to everybody who wanted to buy it. I really do not want unstable countries to get chinese weapons made by very modern technologies, becasue i'm afraid sooner or later (rather sooner) UN troops would face it.

[D34N 0]

Quote[/b] ]No I didn't and I have to say I can't think of a single person I know that's aware of the fact that it's a copy! Do you realy find that strange?

Yes.

Quote[/b] ]I think you got my point though! China has enough knowledge and technology to send a man into orbit. It takes quite an effort and a certain level of technology and knowhow!

Yes, but its not as 'pure' as building one on your own.

Quote[/b] ]Again you assume they are not as well trained as you! We simply do not know and furthermore I'd say the chineese have proved before to be very diciplined soldiers.

Of course it is my assumption, I said early in the thread that these are just my opinions.

Quote[/b] ]How on earth do you imagine they would end up broke? The cheapest labour costs in the world and an economy about to surpass your very own in a few years makes me think you are wrong!

I suppose you are right.

So I'll just go back to they cant build carriers as good as the Nimitz.

Quote[/b] ]I have no illusions about their technological inferiority compared to the US Airforce - for now! That can very well change in the next twenty to thirty years. US is not the only ones making fighters in the world. If even small nations like Sweden can make a modern fighter and the european nations also albeit difficulties in cooperating I guess China could too!

Yes, its called the J-XX, I supposed its a mixed pot of MiG 1.42, Eurofighter, and F-16I Designs stuck together for one huge copy.

(I keed)

[D34N 0]

Quote[/b] ]As we all know China is big exporter of weapons. As i can say EU countries or USA RATHER sell weapons to RATHER stable countries, that China was selling weapons to everybody who wanted to buy it.

I agree.. If by "China" you mean "Russia and North Korea".

[Apollo 0]

Muh ,you don't give up yet,

Alrighty then...

Quote[/b] ]Von Braun worked with the Americans who designed their rocket, Einstein and Oppenheimer built the nuke with billions of dollars of US funding.. We didn't steal those ideas.. we took them and made them better and to fit the US' needs.

First of all ,i already pointed out that this particular point is irrelivant to the discussion ,that is the why or why not "stealing technoligy" is morrali wrong.

Von braun actually developed his V2 under german financing (duh you should say now) ,and this technoligy was used to further engineer the eventual rockets that carried stuff into space.The fact is that any applied technoligy is in essence a derivation of science builded up all over history ,and that no nation has researched all that science themselfs ,whatever technoligy you make ,it will be derived from science made by a various amount of historians all over history with multiple country's of origin ,The man in space couldn't get there withought the mathimatical rules invented 5000 years ago by greek phillosopher's ,so in a way the USA "stole" that science.

Same goes with the Nuke ,it is derived partly by science of physic's "researched" by people trough history ,from the laws of Newton up to Einstein ,i didn't recall the USA having funded Newton now don't i?

Quote[/b] ]China has a manpower 5 to 6 times larger than the US ,and when modernized an industrial and financial potential of that magnitude to. Human waves in the WW2 context is just an ex. ,a more modern ex. would be to let 1 abrams battle it out against 5 T72's ,i figure (takingout of account all other factor's like aerial reconnaisance etc that usually influence such tank battles) the T72's will win.

That all depends on which varient the Chinese copied from the Russians, and what makess you think that China would have the capablity of taking out all our aerial recon?, thats a huge 'if', also I'd doubt it if an Abrams ever made it on Chinese soil its just too big.

Damned it's just an ex. ,i didn't want to go in the aerial thing but the same aplies there ,for every 1 USA plane there are 5 Chinese ones ,i think 5 SU27's would beat one F22 to (however few numbers there are build from them) ,besides the F22 is a typical myth of American millitary supperiority ,just because it's PARTLY stealthy. (it can still be seen on radar ,size of a bird but how many birds fly at Mach2?) besides ,the effeciancy of that stealth will be greatly decreased when it's forced in a defensive role ,and you also have to take into account that an F is not in the air 24/7 ,or otherwise planes sitting on the ground are pretty vulnurable to air attacks ,especially when the enemy is superior in numbers.

Quote[/b] ]No its not.

Man power means virtually nothing(Keyword virtually).. throw three peasants with an AK at a US Soldier and they peasants are dead, training means a lot too. IMO The Brits are the Best Trained, the Germans have the Best Guns and the Sweds have the best Armor. But they dont have them in large numbers. The US has weapons/soldiers/equipment thats arent always the best but we have so many that it doesnt really matter.

The key is not numbers, but endurance and will.. Ho Chi Minh said (I'm paraphrasing): 'You can kill 10 of us for everyone one of you we kill, and we will still win'.

Strange that you Quote ho Che ming here ,the vietnam is a pure ex. of how manpower wins against technoligy ,Ho chi minh here note's that he looses more men compared to the USA ,but in essence the fact that under his regime over millions of vietnamese were taken into the army (mostly volunteers to) ,even kids ,women and old folks ,withought much or any training just to attrition the enemy with superior numbers is just a show that training can only increase combat effectiveness but that in the end superior manpower to the soldier effeciancy ratio still wins.

Training Isn't everything ,and then you also have to take into account that only America's standing army is a trained army ,in a case of a China-USA war both side's would have to draft conscript's and the quality of those conscript's would be not much different ,even if the USA has a million standing army in relative terms to Chinese manpower and full-out mobilized war this number is small.

And then you also note that it's the numbers of USA material that make the difference ,but then again in this youre bound to be surpassed by China in the future.

In the end ,if china will put up against the American army an amount of material in all fields (air,land and navy) of 1 generation older in tech but in general numbers of 5 to 1 China will surpass that combat effeciancy easily with sheer numbers.

And then you also have to take into acount basic strategy 101 ,having a general number superiority of 5 to 1 means that on the strategical level you can have LOCAL supperiority of 20 vs 1. In a war front devissions are never spread equally in numbers over all zone's ,zone's of offense will have far larger number's than zone's of defense ,with a superiority of 5 vs 1 it will be easy to limit to a few zone's of superior in numbers offenses while having still quite large defensive forces on other front section's.

And then ,there are aslo most historical precedent's ,almost every modern war has shown that manpower superiority means the road to victory.

Like i noted with Japan VS China ,Japan was far more technologicaly superior (a chinese airforce was even virtually non-existant) ,yet they still couldn't defeat china. on the European theater ,Germany was well known to have the most advanced ,best equiped and best trained army's ,yet their superior tiger's eventually couldn't hold up to the superior numbers of the USA or Russia.

Then there was the Korean war ,again US forces were then far more superior ,but suddently China drops of a few million low trained and low equiped millitia on the border and BOOM USA beaten back to the 38'th degree.

vietnam ,same story.How can you be blind for such precedents?

Quote[/b] ]Troops? they have more than a million.. the US has more than a million.. the US has better training.. Better Equipment.. this wont change for awhile.. that why the US made the B-2 and the F-22.. to ensure supremacy for a long time.. we just havent seen what comes after them yet.

China has a million STANDING army ,like the USA ,but in a full blown war both nations will have to conscript. if USA conscript's 10% of poppulation they got 25 million lower quality conscript's ,if China conscript's 10% they have 125 million.

Tats 1 Million regulars + 25million conscript's VS 1Million regulars VS 125Million conscript's ,see my point?

Stealth figher's are 1 not undestroyable and 2 not in great numbers ,USA technological edge can't surpass the Chinese numbers edge.

Quote[/b] ]Because 1. They could never build a nuclear carrier even nearly as good as the current Nimitz Class or in large numbers without going broke, and 2 they'd get owned by F-18's

That is what you think ,but i think they 1 arleady can and 2 theyl certainly be able if their conomy is even more evolved.

Mo taxpayers = mo money and when China is as advanced as USA it will be 5 times richer than the US because it has 5 times more people.

Quote[/b] ]1. China Imports the second most amount of oil in the world behind the US

2. If people stopped buying and making contracts with China then they would loose Hundreds of Billions.. possibly trillions in trade.. it doesnt matter that China is supposedly self-sufficient as you put it, but that if sanctions are imposed then China cant make money because it cant trade!

True ,but in this Weakness of China lies a weakness of the USA to ,war would severely disrupt their economy to and the hughe amount's of oil needed for their troops would also be hard to find and expensive to pay.

In fact ,the biggest weakness of the USA is that it's army is the most expensive to upkeep in the world ,even putting only 200.000 men in iraq already blows a hughe budget deficit in the US economy.

[D34N 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Von braun actually developed his V2 under german financing (duh you should say now) ,and this technoligy was used to further engineer the eventual rockets that carried stuff into space.The fact is that any applied technoligy is in essence a derivation of science builded up all over history ,and that no nation has researched all that science themselfs ,whatever technoligy you make ,it will be derived from science made by a various amount of historians all over history with multiple country's of origin ,The man in space couldn't get there withought the mathimatical rules invented 5000 years ago by greek phillosopher's ,so in a way the USA "stole" that science.

Same goes with the Nuke ,it is derived partly by science of physic's "researched" by people trough history ,from the laws of Newton up to Einstein ,i didn't recall the USA having funded Newton now don't i?

For the last time. They took an idea/former project and made it into something useful for the country. China just copied without any development other peoples things.. Moving on..

Quote[/b] ]Damned it's just an ex. ,i didn't want to go in the aerial thing but the same aplies there ,for every 1 USA plane there are 5 Chinese ones ,i think 5 SU27's would beat one F22 to (however few numbers there are build from them) ,besides the F22 is a typical myth of American millitary supperiority ,just because it's PARTLY stealthy. (it can still be seen on radar ,size of a bird but how many birds fly at Mach2?) besides ,the effeciancy of that stealth will be greatly decreased when it's forced in a defensive role ,and you also have to take into account that an F is not in the air 24/7 ,or otherwise planes sitting on the ground are pretty vulnurable to air attacks ,especially when the enemy is superior in numbers.

Totally wrong. If 5 SU-27/30's are flying in radar range the F-22 the SU-27/30's are dead.. Supercruise enables the F-22 to add range to AIM-120 AIMRAAMS and TVC (Thrust Vectoring) makes it as manuverable as the SU-27. It is apperant that you have little knowledge on fighters or stealth.. which is understandable because fighters arent a huge part of OFP. For the record the conservative estimates say that the F-22 RCS(Radar Cross Section) would show up on radar as the size of a golfball, the B-2 would show up the size of a marble.. I cant seem to to find the estimate RCS numbers.. and if anyone has the it would be great.

Quote[/b] ]Strange that you Quote ho Che ming here ,the vietnam is a pure ex. of how manpower wins against technoligy ,Ho chi minh here note's that he looses more men compared to the USA ,but in essence the fact that under his regime over millions of vietnamese were taken into the army (mostly volunteers to) ,even kids ,women and old folks ,withought much or any training just to attrition the enemy with superior numbers is just a show that training can only increase combat effectiveness but that in the end superior manpower to the soldier effeciancy ratio still wins.

My point was that determination and will is more of a factor than numbers.

Quote[/b] ]Training Isn't everything ,and then you also have to take into account that only America's standing army is a trained army ,in a case of a China-USA war both side's would have to draft conscript's and the quality of those conscript's would be not much different ,even if the USA has a million standing army in relative terms to Chinese manpower and full-out mobilized war this number is small.

I doubt it would be a large battlefield if China and the US engaged but a small number of forces in high-intensity conflict.

Quote[/b] ]In the end ,if china will put up against the American army an amount of material in all fields (air,land and navy) of 1 generation older in tech but in general numbers of 5 to 1 China will surpass that combat effeciancy easily with sheer numbers.

Yeah, no. not at all.

1. No.

2. How do you define combat efficiency???, That is stupid .. throwing tens of thousands numbers of quickly made piss-poor inferior craft and you expect them to have a good 'combat efficiency' as in Kill/Death ratio?!?.. Their is no way that some Chinese conscript is going to do any damage unless they go kamikaze..

Quote[/b] ]And then ,there are aslo most historical precedent's ,almost every modern war has shown that manpower superiority means the road to victory.

How many wars has the US been in that are the same? I supposed Gulf War 1 and 2.. any others?

Quote[/b] ]China has a million STANDING army ,like the USA ,but in a full blown war both nations will have to conscript.

I doubt millions would be involved before someone nukes the other..

Quote[/b] ]That is what you think ,but i think they 1 arleady can and 2 theyl certainly be able if their conomy is even more evolved.

Mo taxpayers = mo money and when China is as advanced as USA it will be 5 times richer than the US because it has 5 times more people.

You fool. You have no no idea about the US/Chinese Navy. I will pretend you didnt say that.

Quote[/b] ]In fact ,the biggest weakness of the USA is that it's army is the most expensive to upkeep in the world ,even putting only 200.000 men in iraq already blows a hughe budget deficit in the US economy.

George Bush and the Recession blew a hole in the economy.. the war just helped it along... and whether you admit it or not, no military on earth could have done/do a better job in Iraq.

The reason it costs so much to maintain the military is because its the best in the world.