USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[MR_TROUBLE 0]

I never used the word "unconstitutional" and there's no contradiction in anything I posted.

The whole thing was born out of the McCarthy era just like you said because of our opposition to an athiest USSR. Seriously, why should we give a shit if the USSR didn't believe in god? It's almost like some juvenile high school thing.

It was wrong then to invoke the name of God and put it on coins and money and the pledge of allegiance for those reasons. In the Ozzie and Harriet 1950's, the American population went along with everything the govt said. It's not that way anymore.

If Nike shoes put "In God We Trust" on their shoes there would be an outcry from the Christian population and they would demand that they take it off due to it being sacriligious.

So why is it perfectly OK to cheaply advertise your christian belief in god on money? Is it not sacriligious?

The establishment clause strictly forbids a govt from spouting their religious viewpoints...and by invoking God's name on the official currency of the US...they violate that clause.

Just because a bank is a private company that doesn't mean they can do what they want. This is the official govt currency. When the currency is counterfeited, the private bank doesn't hire a private company to investigate. The US Secret Service investigates. It's GOVT property and controlled by the US Govt.

Just like a private company can't discriminate against employees with regards to race, creed, religion,etc....why should a private bank force the US population to use currency that invokes the name of a god.

Since the US has a population with many CULTURES and religions...since you brought up the culture thing....then why dont we put "In Buddha We Trust"? What about putting "Allah" in the pledge?

Why should my kid have to say "one nation under God" in the pledge? It's not 1956 anymore...the USSR doesn't exist....that bastard McCarthy is long dead...I think we can stop hiding behind the name of god out of our fear of those horrible Russkies...so it's time to remove the word God from our currency and our pledge.

[Garcia 0]

The words were put into the pledge to distinguish the US from the Soviet Union. We were rubbing in their face that the US had religion and they didn't. Again culture brings out the contradiction in your quote.

Rub it into their face? Honestly, I don't think russians gave a shit about USA having a religion.

[MR_TROUBLE 0]

The whole thing is used to control people. Religion is a way to control people. Fear is a way to control people.

The US Govt is really talented at using both religion and fear to control people. But then again so was Hitler's Nazi Germany.

The last thing the US Govt wanted in the 1950's is for Americans to be apathetic to the USSR. So what did they do??

The created the red scare. There's a commie under everybody's bed, in the bushes. There were witch hunts that ruined innocent people's lives.

We are constantly kept in fear of something...we're constantly being fed bullshit about our impending doom around the corner.

If you look at Pre-Iraq war speeches by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice they all mentioned the "mushroom cloud" that would happen if we ignore a threat from Iraq and Al Qaeda.

Using that imagry, of a mushroom cloud, was a blatant shot at the American people to keep them in fear of Iraq and Islamic terrorists so that they would fall in line and support an invasion of Iraq.

Seriously, I'm so sick and tired of our elected officials using religion and fear as a way to control the population. It's insulting.

But too many Americans live in a bubble. They are too focused on who's winning on American Idol or Britney Spear's vagina to realize they're being blatantly lied to and controlled.

[DUX0726 0]

Hear, motha'-f**kin', Here! Now I know why I love this game and you people so much. I agree with everything this man above says. I don't think it will change anything, because truely, nothing has changed with humans in the last 2,000+ years; except that the twinkle-lights have gotten cheaper; but for my money: money is just an abstract concept invented to keep you busy so that Hirabbi could get all the women. Can I get some more Snickers, and some more Coke?

[Sophion-Black 0]

Quote[/b] ]I never used the word "unconstitutional" and there's no contradiction in anything I posted.

but you did side on taking "God" out of everything. how do you expect to get it out? shouting at random people?

Quote[/b] ]Seriously, why should we give a shit if the USSR didn't believe in god?  It's almost like some juvenile high school thing.

welcome to the world of human nature, confusing isn't it?

Quote[/b] ]It was wrong then to invoke the name of God and put it on coins and money and the pledge of allegiance for those reasons.  In the Ozzie and Harriet 1950's, the American population went along with everything the govt said.  It's not that way anymore.

lets look at were the government gets its power, the people. when you say something is wrong you are putting your view over someone else's. now in days there are two major factions in the US, Democrats and Republicans. they are both American people and both say each other is wrong. Thus the party that holds power will receive opposition from the opposite party. If you look back in history, you will see that both parties are sore losers when it comes to losing a close election.

Quote[/b] ]If Nike shoes put "In God We Trust" on their shoes there would be an outcry from the Christian population and they would demand that they take it off due to it being sacriligious.

If the makers of a shoe feels confident in placing such a phrase on a shoe that states their own religion... then by all means let them do it. It is a free country, that includes religion. and since no one is forced to by only Nike, then there should be no problem in buying another brand of shoes.

Quote[/b] ]The establishment clause strictly forbids a govt from spouting their religious viewpoints...and by invoking God's name on the official currency of the US...they violate that clause.

again the US Congress made NO law to adopt the currency, the congress under the articles of the confederation did. thus it is legal and not violating the first amendment.

Quote[/b] ]When the currency is counterfeited, the private bank doesn't hire a private company to investigate.  The US Secret Service investigates.

because the counterfeit money could be used as money to pay the United States as a whole (either government or people). Thus it would be wise for them to stop and destroy the counterfeit money.

Quote[/b] ]It's GOVT property and controlled by the US Govt.

"the Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities...  but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations."

- Lewis v. United States [680 F.2d 1239 (9th Cir. 1982)]

Quote[/b] ]why should a private bank force the US population to use currency that invokes the name of a god.

Looks again:

Quote[/b] ]It's GOVT property and controlled by the US Govt.

anyone else see the contradiction here? but in answer to the first quote... you are not forced to use US currency inside the US, its just convenient for the debtors for you to use it.

Quote[/b] ]then why dont we put "In Buddha  We Trust"?   What about putting "Allah" in the pledge?

Again the power comes from the people of the United States. good luck putting that past them and on to the money.

Quote[/b] ]Why should my kid have to say "one nation under God" in the pledge?

1) your kid doesn't have to say the pledge at all

2) "one nation under God" has been put into the pledge\

Quote[/b] ] It's not 1956 anymore...the USSR doesn't exist...

No I believe its known now as one of two names:

1) Union of Russia and Belarus

2) Commonwealth of Independent States

Quote[/b] ]I think we can stop hiding behind the name of god out of our fear of those horrible Russkies...so it's time to remove the word God from our currency and our pledge.

It wasn't the Russians who put "under God" into the pledge/currency and it's not up to the Russians to remove it. It was (and is) by the approval of the people of the United States to put (and to take out) the words "under God" into the pledge and currency. And you yourself said "I know I'm part of the minority" so I imagine it will take some time for that to happen.

Quote[/b] ]The whole thing is used to control people.  Religion is a way to control people.  Fear is a way to control people.

This is how I see it:

"The whole thing [about the "God"] is used to control people [even though people are controlled by other people]. Religion is [not] a way to control people [because people have the choice to be atheist or not]. Fear is a way to control ("People" is omitted) [human instinct].

Quote[/b] ]The US Govt is really talented at using both religion and fear to control people.

again i shall show what i think:

"The US Govt is really talented at using both religion [even though they have no part of it in using it as a basis to do anything] and [peoples] fear [that is blown out of proportion because other people whine and fuss about it to their representatives].

Quote[/b] ]The last thing the US Govt wanted in the 1950's is for Americans to be apathetic to the USSR.  So what did they do??

Why would US citizens be apathetic to a country ruled by a man that kills millions of his own countrymen? or a country that has a government that allows it to happen? Politicians are elected citizens of the US, they are chosen and controlled by the people.

Quote[/b] ]We are constantly kept in fear of something...we're constantly being fed bullshit about our impending doom around the corner.

It shouldn't surprise you if you briefly know the history of man.

Quote[/b] ]If you look at Pre-Iraq war speeches by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice they all mentioned the "mushroom cloud" that would happen if we ignore a threat from Iraq and Al Qaeda.

My way of interpreting that is "If the US doesnt do anything and they attack Israel, Israel will use their nukes to clean out the desert." Eventually Israel will deal with the problem and get criticized for doing it. But let me also tell you this: those affected by extremist propaganda say that if anything goes wrong they are to blame the US. How comforting...

Quote[/b] ]But too many Americans live in a bubble.  They are too focused on who's winning on American Idol or Britney Spear's vagina to realize they're being blatantly lied to and controlled.

I agree with you. The American people, in my opinion, as a whole has lost a few IQ points. All it takes is one loudmouth person to barge into their house our TV schedule to make them scared as hell and spread the word and panic about stupid stuff. If Americans as a whole got active with politics they will see A LOT of things overlooked by the press. BUT! I think you are suggesting that he US Government controls them. That, I disagree with.

[Garcia 0]

but you did side on taking "God" out of everything. how do you expect to get it out? shouting at random people?

But that still doesn't, in any way, mean that he means it's unconstitutional...

Quote[/b] ]anyone else see the contradiction here? but in answer to the first quote... you are not forced to use US currency inside the US, its just convenient for the debtors for you to use it.

Not really...if currency is to be considered US goverment property, then a private bank shouldn't be allowed to put any religious signs or anything on money without approval from the US goverment. It would be like making counterfeit money...

Quote[/b] ]2) "one nation under God" has been put into the pledge\

And that is exactly the problem...

Quote[/b] ]The whole thing [about the "God"] is used to control people [even though people are controlled by other people].

Aaaaaaaand..."the whole thing" is a mean to controll people. What do "even though people are controlled by other people" prove anyway? Some people have to be on the top, and religion can be used by these "top-people" to controll other people...

Quote[/b] ]Religion is [not] a way to control people [because people have the choice to be atheist or not].

Oh come on. Do you think it's just a coincidence that people usually vote the same as their parents? Do you think it's a coincidence that most people have the same religious beliefs as their parents? A persons choice of religion is very much decided by his/her parents and their beliefs. A child with atheist parents is much more likely to end up as an atheist than a child with christian parents. When a child grows up in a religious home, he grows up with the fear of being sent to hell by an angry god. A childs mind is easy to mould, and the threats about hell is enough to make the child follow christianity (or any other religion with similar threats). Yes, the choice of religion is in theory totally free, but in reality your parents often have a big part in deciding it. And if they choose so, a child may grow up being a "good" christian, and thereby being afraid of gods wrath, and therefor easy to controll for the church.

Quote[/b] ]Why would US citizens be apathetic to a country ruled by a man that kills millions of his own countrymen? or a country that has a government that allows it to happen?

And how did that goverment get to power? Why did that goverment have support in most countries? Why did that goverment still have support after doing such bad things? Do you actually think that americans are somehow immune to supporting such people?

[Baff2 0]

Quote[/b] ]The last thing the US Govt wanted in the 1950's is for Americans to be apathetic to the USSR.  So what did they do??

Why would US citizens be apathetic to a country ruled by a man that kills millions of his own countrymen? or a country that has a government that allows it to happen?

If an American president  did that, you would carve his face into a mountainside or something.

America has had it's share of revolutions, civil wars and genocides too.

Very disappointing, if not a little stomach turning to think this kind of attitude still persists in such an otherwise enlightened nation.

[fardwark 0]

Quote[/b] ]Why would US citizens be apathetic to a country ruled by a man that kills millions of his own countrymen? or a country that has a government that allows it to happen? Politicians are elected citizens of the US, they are chosen and controlled by the people.

Disregarding how naive it is to think that the politicians are controlled by the people, I find your post rather amusing. When the US react against the communist state of Soviet for killing their own they are fighting the good fight, but when the world reacts against the US for killing everyone else (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq etc., you know the list) we're baddies who are probably dirty commie terrorists ourselves?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

If Nike shoes put "In God We Trust" on their shoes there would be an outcry from the Christian population and they would demand that they take it off due to it being sacriligious.

If the makers of a shoe feels confident in placing such a phrase on a shoe that states their own religion... then by all means let them do it. It is a free country, that includes religion. and since no one is forced to by only Nike, then there should be no problem in buying another brand of shoes.

Don't you think it would be confusing to mix christian religion and ancient greek religion on the same shoe?

[Sophion-Black 0]

Quote[/b] ]Not really...

let me pull it back a bit then:

Statement 1) "It's GOVT property and controlled by the US Govt"

Statement 2) "why should a private bank force the US population to use currency that invokes the name of a God."

First he says the FRS is government property then goes on to say it is a private bank.

Quote[/b] ]if currency is to be considered US government property,

I'll stop you there. The USD is NOT government property. they may have money in their account but they do NOT own money. If that was true then the US would not be in debt.

Do you think its wrong for a store to sell religious items? Noted that i really don't consider the USD as a religious item but that, in a sense, is what you are arguing about.

Quote[/b] ]And that is exactly the problem...

I've noticed, some Americans don't feel it necessary to hold unto the heritage of the United States... what a major problem.

Quote[/b] ]Aaaaaaaand..."the whole thing" is a mean to controll people.

To do what!? I can go around yelling that aliens are from the planet "losafoti" but does that control people to believe that?

Quote[/b] ]What do "even though people are controlled by other people" prove anyway?

It shows the vanity of everyone saying that they are controlled by the government. You control yourself, if your a minor (in the US) your parents/guardians "control you". Let me bring a big question to this topic:

Are you controlled the the government?

If you don't have common sense you would say yes, but that just shows how stupid you are to allow yourself to be controlled by any other person besides yourself.

Quote[/b] ]Oh come on. Do you think it's just a coincidence that people usually vote the same as their parents?

My parents are Democrats.

Quote[/b] ]Do you think it's a coincidence that most people have the same religious beliefs as their parents?

What are you saying here? that religion/the government is like a parent?

Quote[/b] ]And how did that goverment get to power? Why did that goverment have support in most countries? Why did that goverment still have support after doing such bad things? Do you actually think that americans are somehow immune to supporting such people?

1) Killing the other guy

2) Killing the other guy

3) Killing that one other guy too

4) Yes, we have guns and morals

Quote[/b] ]If an American president  did that, you would carve his face into a mountainside or something.

America has had it's share of revolutions, civil wars and genocides too.

I'll make sure he's bury upside-down. No one has the right or the authority to kill another innocent human being.

Quote[/b] ] but when the world reacts against the US for killing everyone else (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq etc., you know the list) we're baddies who are probably dirty commie terrorists ourselves?

You have no idea what war is?

[Baff2 0]

Do you?

As for burying American presidents upside down if they got involved in civil wars, genocides of their own people or revolutions, which president are you planning to dig up first?

It's not a case of right, it's a matter of power, and plenty of people hold that authority and have held that authority all through history.

Unlike you, Stalin considered all those Russian massacring Nazi volunteers and death camp running Ukrainians not to be all that innocent. Neither do I.

That you wish to define them as "his own people" says alot about you.

In a revolution, the enemy is your enemy, not your own side. The same in a civil war, the same during an invasion.

A war is a war.

[fardwark 0]

Quote[/b] ]You have no idea what war is?

Wait, I thought Vietnam was a police action and not a war?

[Garcia 0]

let me pull it back a bit then:

Statement 1) "It's GOVT property and controlled by the US Govt"

Statement 2) "why should a private bank force the US population to use currency that invokes the name of a God."

The way I see his statement is, he considers the US currency to be US goverment property, that the US goverment should be the one deciding how their coins and such should look like. Therefor a private bank should not be allowed to put whatever they like on the money.

Quote[/b] ]I'll stop you there. The USD is NOT government property. they may have money in their account but they do NOT own money. If that was true then the US would not be in debt.

Do you think its wrong for a store to sell religious items? Noted that i really don't consider the USD as a religious item but that, in a sense, is what you are arguing about.

Quote[/b] ]if currency is to be considered US government property

I never said I consider it US goverment property. Honestly, I don't give a shit either...

Quote[/b] ]To do what!? I can go around yelling that aliens are from the planet "losafoti" but does that control people to believe that?

To do what the fuck they want to have done. A gun can be a way to controll people, but I don't know what the fuck everyone with a gun want to controll other people to do...and I never said religion can be used to controll every religious person. But that still doesn't change the fact that religion can be used to controll people...and just to make sure you got it, that doesn't mean all people, that means some people...

Quote[/b] ]It shows the vanity of everyone saying that they are controlled by the government.

There is this neat thing called power. This power is something people get when in high positions, such as US president. This power can be used to do neat things like...controll people. The higher the position, the more power, the more controll over people.

Quote[/b] ]You control yourself, if your a minor (in the US) your parents/guardians "control you".

And if I go out and shoots someone, the police arrests me. Then the police controll me. The police does this because of laws. Laws are again controlled by the goverments and such...a goverment can controll the citizens of a nation if they feel like. There's many ways to do it, some more effective than others. And no way how you put it, you are to some extent controlled by the goverment.

Quote[/b] ]If you don't have common sense you would say yes, but that just shows how stupid you are to allow yourself to be controlled by any other person besides yourself.

Ah yes...how stupid a sentence. Laws controll people. I don't make my own laws to follow. I have to follow laws made by others. How fucking stupid I am. I guess I'll just go out and blow the brains out of someone, because I don't want to be controlled by the laws made by others...

Quote[/b] ]My parents are Democrats.

How sweet. And that proves? That not everybody votes the same as their parents? Did I ever say so?

Quote[/b] ]What are you saying here? that religion/the government is like a parent?

Errr...no?

I am saying "Do you think it's a coincidence that most people have the same religious beliefs as their parents?"

And the point is that a persons choice of religion isn't as free as one would think. The choice is often "made" by peoples parents. If ones parents are christians, the child often ends up a christian too, especially if the parents wants the child to end up a christian.

Quote[/b] ]1) Killing the other guy

2) Killing the other guy

3) Killing that one other guy too

4) Yes, we have guns and morals

Oh, I guess that explains why such people had lots of support outside their country

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

Wow..that last post was tough to follow.

So in a slight change of direction, but in keeping with religion, the Government, and "control" I would like to put this forth:

1.) The other day I saw a bumper sticker that said "Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church."

Witty, but who is really up in arms worried about religion in schools?  Other than right-wing fanatics wanting it back in school, or left-wing hippies angry that the Pledge of Alliegence has the word "God" in it...who is losing sleep over this?

2.) Why is one Religion something we need to be more "sensitive too," while another Religion is offensive?

Example:  A New York Supreme court will be hearing a case regarding schools allowing displays for Hanukka and Ramadan, but banning any display of the Nativity sceen.  The "Holiday" Tree was permitted.

Please refrain from getting tempy in your responses.  These are issues to provoke thought and discussion.

[MR_TROUBLE 0]

Wow..that last post was tough to follow.

So in a slight change of direction, but in keeping with religion, the Government, and "control" I would like to put this forth:

1.) The other day I saw a bumper sticker that said "Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church."

Witty, but who is really up in arms worried about religion in schools? Other than right-wing fanatics wanting it back in school, or left-wing hippies angry that the Pledge of Alliegence has the word "God" in it...who is losing sleep over this?

2.) Why is one Religion something we need to be more "sensitive too," while another Religion is offensive?

Example: A New York Supreme court will be hearing a case regarding schools allowing displays for Hanukka and Ramadan, but banning any display of the Nativity sceen. The "Holiday" Tree was permitted.

Please refrain from getting tempy in your responses. These are issues to provoke thought and discussion.

Well I'm not a left wing hippie by any stretch of the imagination.

It's not a question of losing sleep over the fact that the words "Under God" are in the pledge of allegiance.

However I do lose sleep over the fact that religious conservatives have it in their agenda to have prayer in schools, at work, etc and teach our school children about "intelligent design", which is just another tactic to teach creationism and it's a movement that is funded by many conservative christian groups.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....86.html

I do lose sleep over the fact that US Christian fundamentalists are driving Bush's Middle East policy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1195729,00.html

I do lose sleep that some of our US generals are right wing religious nutjobs who believe that we have the Army of God and God put Bush in the White House.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1016-01.htm

I do lose sleep that we had guys like John Ashcroft, an evangelical NUT, appointed to the position of US Attorney General by none other than George Bush. Aschroft had himself anointed in crisco oil when no holy water was available. More on him here.

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/usa/john-ashcroft/

What a lot of people don't see, is that there's an ultraconservative movement in the US to turn the whole country into JESUSLAND.

People like me don't want this. We don't want religion in our schools, our jobs, our government. If you want to believe in God, great, believe in God, but don't bring it into my child's school, don't bring it into my place of work, and don't let it influence the decisions of our elected leaders.

A good friend of mine turned into a religious nutcase. It was sad. I was over at his house one night after not seeing him in quite sometime and one night he just went off about "the rapture" and how God isn't going to take him when he comes down...that he is going to be left on Earth to fight the mongrels or whoever the evil bastards are that are going to be in this "7 year war". He told me that I will see people around me disappearing...news reports about people vanishing and leaving nothing but a pile of clothes on the ground....the rapture he calls it. He said that when I see that happening that I am to find him...in Utah...I am to grab all my guns and my gear and my family and find him in Utah. He said he wants me to join him in this fight because I'm a "good man" and I would be a great "soldier" in this "war". The whole time I'm like...whatfuck.

Somewhere along the line....this guy I knew from our high school days...a guy I went to bars with...was on the football team with...turned into a right-wing religious zealot.

And it's people with the same religious beliefs who are in charge of the US Govt right now.

So yes, these people scare me, and I lose a little bit of sleep over it because I love my country and these motherfuckers have ruined it.

[Garcia 0]

1.) The other day I saw a bumper sticker that said "Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church."

Witty, but who is really up in arms worried about religion in schools?  Other than right-wing fanatics wanting it back in school, or left-wing hippies angry that the Pledge of Alliegence has the word "God" in it...who is losing sleep over this?

Doubt people lose sleep over removing the word god from the pledge. And I doubt people consider is such a big deal, but it's the principle. An atheist probably wants to be able to say the pledge without having to drag some shitty religion into it. Just imagine the outcry in USA if you replaced "god" with "allah". I'd almost bet on that it would result in violent demonstrations.

Quote[/b] ]2.) Why is one Religion something we need to be more "sensitive too," while another Religion is offensive?

And that's the problem. In my opinion, all religions should be treated equally, but they're not.

[billybob2002 0]

Doubt people lose sleep over removing the word god from the pledge. And I doubt people consider is such a big deal, but it's the principle. An atheist probably wants to be able to say the pledge without having to drag some shitty religion into it. Just imagine the outcry in USA if you replaced "god" with "allah". I'd almost bet on that it would result in violent demonstrations.

I really don't think there would be violent demonstrations. The elected officials who voted to replace "god" with "allah" would likely be voted out of office and the new officials will replace "allah" with "god."

[Baff1 0]

I don't mind religion in schools, I went to a religious school.

(Rebeliously it took me a while to get over that religion is the root of all evil trip that enforced worship can provoke in a teen).

I feel that politics has evolved out of religion to large extent and to try and divorce it completely is a misunderstanding of the foundations of our soceities(sp?).

I do notice that politicians get scarily religious everytime the topic of their discussion borders on the sacrifice of life for their beliefs.

But although a tell tale sign of scary stuff to come, religion is a unifying template in which our cultures deal with death.

(We all get together for funerals and rememberance services etc. It is a social ritual which we all know how to do. It brings us together during a time of emotional insecurity).

I'm not particularly religious myself, perhaps even an atheist but I understand it's worth.  

Soldiers are all holy warriors, ours and theres both. Whatever god they favour, death and sacrifice goes with the territory. In this enviroment, belief prospers.

It's scary, not because of the faith in religion but because of the sacrifce of life implicit in the endeavours they undertake.

Happy Christmas by way, I hope it all goes well for you all.

[Sophion-Black 0]

Quote[/b] ]However I do lose sleep over the fact that religious conservatives have it in their agenda to have prayer in schools, at work, etc and teach our school children about "intelligent design", which is just another tactic to teach creationism and it's a movement that is funded by many conservative christian groups.

that is something I find off-key. However, I do see what they are getting at with spreading religion is spreading happyness. but I beleive in a value that goes something like "forceing your believe upon annother is not permited." This does NOT restrict displaying your religion (i.e. setting up a christmas tree outside.)

Quote[/b] ]I do lose sleep that some of our US generals are right wing religious -(I'll cut off there)

You seem suprised, its been that way for quite a long time (past the middle ages).

Quote[/b] ]What a lot of people don't see, is that there's an ultraconservative movement in the US to turn the whole country into JESUSLAND.

there is also a movement to turn the US into NO-JESUSLAND.

Quote[/b] ]and don't let it [religion] influence the decisions of our elected leaders.

look, poloticians are controlled by the people. if the people are largeley religious then there SHOULD NOT BE ANY PROBLEM. There are things that are called "passports" they get you to a differant country. If you dislike the policies set down by the public then leave the public.

Quote[/b] ]He said that when I see that happening that I am to find him...in Utah...I am to grab all my guns and my gear and my family and find him in Utah.

that would not be an accurate representation of a religious man.

Quote[/b] ]So yes, these people scare me, and I lose a little bit of sleep over it because I love my country

same here, but that doens't mean you need to ban the word "God" everywhere. You have a differant vission of what America should be than what I do. I tolerate other religions because those poeple belive thay are doing the right thing. And I respect them for doing that, you could at least do the same... after all, you are an American aren't you?

Quote[/b] ]And that's the problem. In my opinion, all religions should be treated equally, but they're not.

It's that way because people go to extreemism.

Quote[/b] ]Doubt people lose sleep over removing the word god from the pledge.

I'd loose sleep because it's [religion] a big part of US culture.

Anyways, I'm signing off for a while...

Merry Christmas

Happy Hanukkah

and other religious holidays I fail to mention.

...and happy New Year too!!!

[Baff1 0]

look, poloticians are controlled by the people. if the people are largeley religious then there SHOULD NOT BE ANY PROBLEM. There are things that are called "passports" they get you to a differant country. If you dislike the policies set down by the public then leave the public.

Isn't that the other way round, politicians control the public.

In the pyramid structure of society, society is ruled from the top down, not the bottom up.

Democracy does not mean the public rules, it means your rulers are elected by the public. This is very far from being the same thing.

The public sets down precisely zero policies.

No referendum us given to the public on "public" policy.

And if you don't like what's going on in your country you should just leave?

Seems a bit unpatriotic. How about you do your bit to change it. Or how about you weigh up the pros' against the cons. See if it's worth giving up your wealth and friends and family for.

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

Great posts! Thank you for your well thought replies. I'm glad to see people are really thinking about these concepts and not spouting off with something they saw on CNN.

Heres more food for thought.

A core value in America is the freedom of religion. Mind you that is freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

[MR_TROUBLE 0]

Religion, seems like a noble thing at face value...to me.  You know...love thy neighbor...though shall not kill or cheat or steal, etc.  

But when I look at the supposedly religious people around me, people who profess to be either good christians or catholics, they are seriously hypocritical and flawed human beings.  Many do not have the reverence for human life and tolerance of others that I think religious principles demand of them.

For example, a buddy of mine is pro-life when it comes to the abortion debate.  But he's the first to tell you that if he sees someone step onto his property, or if he sees some stranger in his backyard, he's going to get his shotgun and kill the sonofabitch.  So it's not ok to take the life of a fetus but it's ok to take the life of someone who is unarmed, and merely trespassing on your property?  Ok gotcha.   Hypocracy.

I had another friend in high school, a right wing conservative guy...parents were right wing conservatives as well.  This guy could not stand black people, for no other reason than they were black. The "N" word came out of his mouth quite easily.  He could though gay people should be killed.   So much for the whole we're all God's children thing.  More hypocracy.

Look at all the priests that are molesting children.  These are men of the cloth, people who believe in God and everything that comes with God.  And yet they are fiddling little altar boys right under God's watchful eye.  Obviously these priests are not bothered by the notion of HELL.  And there are thousands of cases of molestation and hundreds of priests involved.   In addition to that, the cover-up by the church bureacracy and religious groups is appaling.   So much for protecting children.  More hypocracy.

US Congressman Mark Foley, a homosexual and probable pedophile, was sending sexual text messages to underage boys.  The Republican leadership, who are always talking about "protecting the children" and how they are better at it than democrats, absolutely protected Mark Foley and brushed the early reports of Foley's actions under the rug.   They had an opportunity to step up and actually protect these kids and they failed.  Hypocracy.

And I don't get Islam.  Supposedly a peaceful religion.  Where was the outcry from even the Islamic moderates...these allegedly peaceful people...when hostages like Nick Berg were getting butchered.  But as soon as an errant American bomb kills some Iraqi civilians THEN there's an outcry from Islamic leaders.   Ugh.

Take a look at Christmas.  Does anyone actually remember what Christmas is supposed to be about? Does anyone give a shit?  Xmas is corporate America's wet dream every year.  Xmas is about profits, not Jesus.  Jesus isn't even an afterthought.  IT's about money money money, buy buy buy, spend spend spend, eat eat eat.  Anyone else sick of this?

I think it's great that some people who truly follow God's teachings, but don't force it on others, who respect all humans no matter what color they are, how much money they make, what political party they belong to, whether they have sex with a man or a woman, etc........

But those people are few and far between...and if we had more of those people the world would be a much better place.  But because many religious god fearing people are a bunch of selfish, manipulative, racist, bigoted, ass-backwards, mindless drones....we have the world that we have today.

So whenever someone talks about how they believe in God and how religious they are and that they go to church every Sunday...I'm like...so WHAT.

[Baff1 0]

I have a sneaking suspicion that people who regularly pray for their souls....

need to.

Do whatever you like, as long as you pray for forgiveness, all is good.

[denoir 0]

Religion, seems like a noble thing at face value...to me.  You know...love thy neighbor...though shall not kill or cheat or steal, etc.  

That's arbitrary picking and choosing. The bible that states those things also tells us we should kill people that work on Sunday, children that talk back to their parents, adulterers, gays etc

The principle of "don't kill me and I won't kill you" and "don't steal my shit and I won't steal yours" are pretty universal and required for any type of organized society to work. If anything religion can corrupt those basic values by overriding them with arbitrary rules.

The god of the Old Testament is an ill-tempered genocidal maniac and hardly a suitable role model in modern society. Jesus was of course a great improvement as a moral role model. From a Christian point of view however both books are equally valid.

Quote[/b] ]And I don't get Islam.  Supposedly a peaceful religion.  

Islam is just like Christianity completely contradictory and basically allows you to find any niche you want. If you want to be nice to people, you can find the verse to support it. If you wish to kill infidels you can find verses that instruct you to do so. The problem of Islam today is that people in the Islamic world are largely religious zealots. The average Muslim takes his religion far more seriously and literally than the average Christian. 700 years ago the roles were reversed.

Quote[/b] ]I think it's great that some people who truly follow God's teachings, but don't force it on others, who respect all humans no matter what color they are, how much money they make, what political party they belong to, whether they have sex with a man or a woman, etc........

The central concept of religion is “faith†– the blind belief in something without any evidence.  A “leap of faith†is considered to be a good thing. That is what makes the mainstream moderates dangerous. They uphold a framework that enables extremism. As the moderates claim the right to pick and choose the “nice†parts of the religious texts without having any criteria for such a selection, they legitimize the extremists when they do the same. From a biblical perspective “Be nice to other people†and “God hates fags†are equally true. Which one you select is up to you. Therefore people that advocate that morality is to be taken from scripture are not just misguided but dangerous in a wider context.

[Garcia 0]

look, poloticians are controlled by the people. if the people are largeley religious then there SHOULD NOT BE ANY PROBLEM. There are things that are called "passports" they get you to a differant country. If you dislike the policies set down by the public then leave the public.

The people do not controll the goverment. The goverment controll the people. If the people don't like the goverment, they can do jack shit about it until the next election...unless the people decides to use violence...

Quote[/b] ]It's that way because people go to extreemism.

Soo...my religion book when I was about 10 years old was 270 pages christianity, and like 30 pages divided on all other religons and stuff, because of extremists? Now that was some nice bullshit.

Quote[/b] ]I'd loose sleep because it's [religion] a big part of US culture.

How nice.

Quote[/b] ]A core value in America is the freedom of religion. Mind you that is freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

So when a nation embraces a religion and acts like this religon being the right one and treats this religion better than other, is that full religious freedom? You only got full religious freedom when a nation doesn't embrace any religious view and treats every religious view equally, may it be Islam, Buddism, Christianity, atheism or any other...

[walker 0]

Hi all

As the Democrats can now investigate things in The White House.

Perhaps it is time to investigate who Jeff Gannon alias James Guckert was visiting in The White House when he was stopping over nights.

Someone seems to think so. The full White House security logs just obtained show he was visiting over night and before he was acredited as a Journalist for Talon which did not exist until months after he was given a pass to spend the night at the White House.

http://rawstory.rawprint.com/0405/guckert_access_a1.php

Wonder who's bed he was sleeping in?

Kind Regards Walker