Gunmen take 200+ student hostages

[Longinius 1]

LOL. Avon, how do you find all those odd references anyway? Are you the traffic controller of the Information Super Highway or something?

[Goodspeed 0]

That's what I've told you about...

They're Terrorists - Not Activists, by Daniel Pipes

[theavonlady 2]

That's what I've told you about...

They're Terrorists - Not Activists, by Daniel Pipes

They shoot children, don't they?

The Children of Bestan.

A war unlike any other.

Beslan Changed Russia ... and the world.

[DracoPaladore 0]

Quote[/b] ]Putin Lashes Out at the U.S.

By Simon Saradzhyan

Staff Writer

President Vladimir Putin accused the United States of undermining Russia's struggle against terror by meeting with Chechen separatists and rejected calls for a public inquiry into whether authorities mishandled the hostage-taking in Beslan.

Putin told a group of Western policy analysts Monday night that his administration has repeatedly complained about meetings between U.S. officials and representatives of Chechen separatists, but to no avail.

Washington has invariably responded with "we will get back to you" or "we reserve the right to talk with anyone we want," Putin told the group during a wide-ranging policy discussion at his residence outside Moscow, according to CNN's account of the meeting.

The president often looked grim but spoke calmly, participants said.

Putin said Washington's approach reflects a Cold War mentality among some U.S. politicians. He said negotiations between Moscow and Chechen separatists would be like negotiations between the West and al-Qaida, said Guardian reporter Jonathan Steel, who attended the 3 1/2-hour meeting.

"Why don't you meet Osama bin Laden, invite him to Brussels or to the White House and engage in talks, ask him what he wants and give it to him so he leaves you in peace? Why don't you do that?" Putin said, according to The Guardian.

"You find it possible to set some limitations in your dealings with these bastards, so why should we talk to people who are child-killers?" he said, Reuters reported.

Putin's comments shed further light on who he had in mind Saturday when he lashed out at those who assist terrorist efforts to "tear off a big chunk of our country" because they "think that Russia, as one of the greatest nuclear powers of the world, is still a threat, and this threat has to be eliminated." Putin was speaking in a televised address to the nation.

Moscow has criticized a decision by a U.S. court to grant asylum to Ilyas Akhmadov, foreign minister in the rebel government.

Putin reportedly bears a personal grudge against British Prime Minister Tony Blair for a British court's refusal to hand over Akhmad Zakayev, envoy to Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov. Denmark earlier refused to extradite Zakayev as well.

Putin said Monday night that the terrorists' goal was to ignite clashes between Ossetians and the Ingush to try to destabilize the entire North Caucasus region.

"There's a Yugoslavia variant here," Putin warned, according to notes taken by participant Eileen O'Connor, The Washington Post reported. "It would be difficult to imagine the consequences for the rest of the world. Bear in mind Russia is a nuclear power."

While ruling out negotiations, Putin also flatly rejected calls for a public inquiry into Beslan -- despite the fact that flaws in the command and control of federal forces deployed to tackle the crisis were clear as television broadcast footage of chaos Friday.

Moreover, Putin dismissed an inquiry by parliament, which has the right to conduct independent investigations, saying it could become "a political show."

"If that happened, it would not be very productive," Putin was quoted by The Guardian as saying.

In previous mishandled crises, like the Kursk submarine sinking, Putin waited for an official investigation or internal probe to determine who was at fault in mishandled crises and then fired them.

In the case of Beslan, there will be an internal inquiry "to establish the chronicle of events and find out who is responsible and might be punished," Putin said.

The president made it clear, however, that he does not fault the crisis headquarters for deciding to storm the school after two bombs exploded inside and the terrorists started firing at fleeing hostages.

He praised the courage of the commandos who went in, knowing that many would be killed. A record 10 elite troops died, many in civilian fire, as they tried to shield fleeing children, according to The Washington Post.

Putin revealed that security officers on the scene had intercepted radio exchanges among the terrorists. He read out an exchange: "What are you doing? Why? I hear some noise. What's going on? I'm just in the middle of shooting some children."

"They were bored, so they shot children," Putin said, according to The Guardian.

Federal Security Service deputy director Vladimir Pronichev led the crisis headquarters, Gazeta reported. Pronichev had the same role during the Dubrovka hostage crisis in 2002, when commandos managed to kill all the hostage-takers before they could detonate their explosives.

This time, however, lack of organization and flaws in command and control were obvious on the ground.

It remains unclear, for example, why local vigilantes were allowed to man the one and only security perimeter, allowing them to open fire and charge toward the school ahead of commandoes trained to storm buildings and take out hostage-takers.

Putin insisted that he saw no link between Beslan and the situation in Chechnya, striking the table with the side of his right hand to make the point. He conceded that federal forces have committed human rights violations in Chechnya, but like the torture by U.S. soldiers in Iraq, they were not sanctioned from the top, The Guardian reported.

"In war there are ugly processes that have their own logic," he said.

"Just imagine that people who shoot children in the back came to power anywhere on our planet. Just ask yourself that, and you will have no more questions about our policy in Chechnya," he said.

Putin said the Kremlin will continue to push ahead with a plan to transfer more authority to the pro-Moscow Chechen administration.

"We will strengthen law enforcement by staffing the police with Chechens, and gradually withdraw our troops to barracks, and leave as small a contingent as we feel necessary, just like the U.S. does in California and Texas," he said.

While focusing on Beslan and terrorism, Putin also said he will implement his vision of democracy in Russia.

"We'll do this at our own pace," he said, according to CNN.

"In Russia, democracy is who shouts the loudest," he said. "In the U.S., it's who has the most money."

NATO and Russia on Tuesday agreed to boost cooperation in the fight against terrorism after a spate of attacks on Russian soil, Reuters reported.

Putin on Tuesday decided to postpone his visit later this week to Germany because of the Beslan hostage-taking, the Kremlin press service said.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/09/08/002.html

Quote[/b] ]Putin revealed that security officers on the scene had intercepted radio exchanges among the terrorists. He read out an exchange: "What are you doing? Why? I hear some noise. What's going on? I'm just in the middle of shooting some children."

This sounds a bit..off. "I'm just in the middle of shooting some children."? Dosn't sound like something someone would say into their radio when an explosion rocks the building over your head.

[Tovarish 0]

Quote[/b] ]Putin revealed that security officers on the scene had intercepted radio exchanges among the terrorists. He read out an exchange: "What are you doing? Why? I hear some noise. What's going on? I'm just in the middle of shooting some children."

This sounds a bit..off. "I'm just in the middle of shooting some children."? Dosn't sound like something someone would say into their radio when an explosion rocks the building over your head.

That reportedly happened earlier during the siege, not during the storming

[DracoPaladore 0]

Ah, I see now.

[Gollum1 0]

Many new (for me) pics up at Militaryphotos.net

Also, some interesting pics....Spetsgruppa A? No camo I've ever seen before.

Note the SMG to the right

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/DWF15-888169.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/51259062.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/51258993.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/DWF15-888473.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos....abc.jpg

[CrackerJack 0]

Am I the only one that finds this picture weird? The litte guy with the big helmet

[red oct 2]

little guy carrying a big gun and good sized forearms. i'd say he's more than capable of cleaning somebodies clock if need be.

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]You know, I am not so sure the Russians did not play their cards right in this situation (unless I'm out of touch, possibly), it was really a screwup/coincidence that all this happened, and you can't blame starving/halucinating hostages for freaking out.

They might not have been able to avoid the final show down, but they sure as heck could have limited the carnage and chaos.

Like Avon pointed out, the area should have been evacuated and sealed of day one. They failed to do this in three days! There shouldnt have been any civilians even remotely near the area, and definately not any armed civilians.

Civilian aid workers or what not in stand-by, sure, but they were milling all over the place. Vehicles had access right up to the school. People were walking around, out of uniform, carrying AK-47's. Total chaos.

I'm not disputing that, I said the same thing a few pages ago.

[bn880 5]

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/ossetia_hostage_incident/acf.jpg

Am I the only one that finds this picture weird? The litte guy with the big helmet

You'd be surprized about how useful it can be to have little guys among you in combat, especially CQB stuff. I mean first and foremost you can chuck the guy in through a small window like a grenade..

As you probably know, todays combat is seldom about size, I don't want to go off topic.

I have to say though, Putin looks really pissed from what I read, I think he is really angry and kind of feeling helpless at the same time. He's going to over react in a place or two for sure.

Anyway, I disagree though with him saying negotiations are totally impossible because of these 30 people. They are dead! It is quite like a government+conscript relations. And you can't expect the same behaviour from a vastly outnumbered/out gunned enemy as you do from the dominant force. So, saying that negotiations are not possible for that reason is bullshit, there may be other reasons though

[Balschoiw 0]

My forecast is going to be true. There are public uprisings in minor landscapes right now. 1 government is said to have resigned.

They get exactly what they wanted. Make conditions for a big uprising.

And force Moscow to react. A russian general today said that they will fight terrorism worldwide from now on but will not use nuclear weapons

They will eradicate cells of terrorism.

Means: Much more blood.

Means: Much more resistance

Means: Spiral of war.

This is a very dangerous situation. If Putin goes mad now and it looks like he does and falls back to strict communism or how he calls it "guided democracy" and starts a military orgy, they have won.

The terrorist attack on innocent kids was well planned and with a motivation done that is beyond our first understanding.

Open your eyes and see !

[AKM74. 0]

Quote[/b] ]Open your eyes and see !

With all respect, I think you miss the point. He basically sad “time to go after “shepherdsâ€, not a “sheepâ€.  I hope many gentlemens/countrys from Middle East in his “to-do†list already.

Quote[/b] ]They get exactly what they wanted. Make conditions for a big uprising.

In Putin first speech after these terrible events, he clearly says. “Everyone who goes after the Chechens or Ingush†will be considered as terrorist’s supporters, even if we can understand what many peoples feel. Because it will be exactly what this f_heads try to achieve.

[CrackerJack 0]

Quote[/b] ]With all respect, I think you miss the point. He basically sad “time to go after “shepherdsâ€, not a “sheepâ€.  I hope many gentlemens/countrys from Middle East in his “to-do†list already.

What did they do before? Did they just invade Chechnya for a pointless war? Middle east, what does palestinians and Iraqi got to do with this?

Quote[/b] ]In Putin first speech after these terrible events, he clearly says. “Everyone who goes after the Chechens or Ingush†will be considered as terrorist’s supporters, even if we can understand what many peoples feel.  Because it will be exactly what this f_heads try to achieve.

I have trouble reading English but what you basicly said was the same as Bushes speach who ever isn´t with us is against us? What they tried to achieve was put on Putins desk and he didn´t even read it.

[pogingwapo 0]

Plus... 10 milion? How can they afford it?

Putin's turn

[CrackerJack 0]

Hahahahhahaaa owned!

[Apollo 0]

Just a note: the 2nd Chechen war has claimed the lives of between 150.000 and 200.000 Chechen civilians by international statistics ,Chechnya has now a leftover poppulation of about 550.000 people ,thats a whole lot of people for such a small country that is now tottaly in ruins. Another few 100.000's have been displaced by the Russian millitary and are now refugee's in various places around Chechnya or in the west not allowed to return to the country. (not only Grozny)

If you consider that by normal demographic's about 20% of the poppulaion is underage then the 2nd chechen war has claimed the lives of about 30.000 to 40.000 kids ,however they are not killed by terrorism rather by "colateral dammage".The deathtoll of children in Beslam is roughly 1% of the deathtoll of Chechen children in the 2nd Chechen war.

[CrackerJack 0]

Then Im gonna ask all of you who said to me what did those children do wrong?

Well what did all Chechen civilians do whrong to deserve to live and die in a war that is unstopable. And I dont want to hear phil talk about "good muslims" who do nothing, we should look at Russians who elected person like Putin who doesnt even want to open a dialog with Chechens.

What did all those Chechen children do to Russia?

[ralphwiggum 6]

Then Im gonna ask all of you who said to me what did those children do wrong?

Well what did all Chechen civilians do whrong to deserve to live and die in a war that is unstopable. And I dont want to hear phil talk about "good muslims" who do nothing, we should look at Russians who elected person like Putin who doesnt even want to open a dialog with Chechens.

What did all those Chechen children do to Russia?

invading Dagestan. you don't invade other regions.

[Goodspeed 0]

Where are you from CrackerJack? Have you ever been in places what you're talking about?

[CrackerJack 0]

lol, you blaim the genocide on that?

Then I blaim that death of all those school children on Russian invasion of chechnya. You dont invade country that want´s a free state.

What basayev was on his own, not talking about that he did it rambo style but offcorse he did it with his forgein fighters. Dont you think that the Generals wanted a revenge for their humiliation of the first war? Offcorse they did, hell there even oil in there as en extra bonus, and stoping muslims for forming their own country that´s run by muslim law, thats gotta be the biggest threat for the Russian Catholists. Please don´t do the who started what, all from the first war, the election manipulation to the expelling and ignoring west contries I know whos fault it all is.

Why is a Chechen child less worth then a Russian?

[ralphwiggum 6]

lol, you blaim the genocide on that?

Then I blaim that death of all those school children on Russian invasion of chechnya. You dont invade country that want´s a free state.

What basayev was on his own, not talking about that he did it rambo style but offcorse he did it with his forgein fighters. Dont you think that the Generals wanted a revenge for their humiliation of the first war? Offcorse they did, hell there even oil in there as en extra bonus, and stoping muslims for forming their own country that´s run by muslim law, thats gotta be the biggest threat for the Russian Catholists.

the second war would not have happened if Chechens did not attack Moscow or Dagestan. after first war, Russian didn't want to do anything, until Dagestan and bombing followed.

let me ask you this question. Why do you not condemn Chechens for starting the cycle again?

Quote[/b] ]Please don´t do the who started what, all from the first war, the election manipulation to the expelling and ignoring west contries I know whos fault it all is.

whose fault is it? after Russians were defeated they didn't do a squat.

Quote[/b] ]Why is a Chechen child less worth then a Russian?

It seems like to you Russian children are worth less than Chechen children cause you condone killing Russian children. I fail to see you condemn the perpetrators for Beslan incident.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]the second war would not have happened if Chechens did not attack Moscow or Dagestan. after first war, Russian didn't want to do anything, until Dagestan and bombing followed.

There are nuancations to this.In 1996 Russia as part of the peace treaty it signed shoulda have payd a large number of funds to rebuild the shattered country torn by war ,the money never came and chechnya wasn't able to rebuild its political structure's ,leading to instabillety and warlords of various clan's gaining power in the country.The invasion in Dagestan and the attack on the Russian flats in 1999 was also organized outside the internationally recognized goverment of Chechnya led by president Maskhadov ,they were organized with Basayev wich only informed Maskhadov of these actions after they were commited.As thus Chechnya as a whole shouldn't have been made responsible for the actions of an independant warlord.

If you compare that to Saudi Arabia for ex. ,should the USA have attacked Saudi Arabia because Osama Bin Laden was a Saudi ,aswell as most of the 9/11 bombers?

I do condem the attacks on Beslam and the victims fallen in it ,but i find the media attention and and political outcry to it disproportional to russia's own atrocity's and to many other atrocity's going on in the war just neglected ,just that i find the whole war against terrorism disproportional.

30.000 to 40.000 children get killed in Chechnya due to the 2nd Chechnyan war but that's just collateral dammage ,the attacks in beslan however get whidespread international attention and feedback.

Yes the attacks on America of 9/11 were an attrocity ,but at some point you have to relativate the deathtoll of 3000 men ,especially when that leads to a whole campaign against terrorism that inflicts way more civilian deathtoll.Exact figure's of civilian deathtoll in Iraq and Afhanistan are hard to know and kinda dubious ,but they deffinatly exceed that 3000 civilians in New York.

Practicly ,it show's a picture where the lives of the civilians of russian or American origin are worth more than those country's where they campaign or 3rd world country's in general.

In various conflicts in the world very bloody conflicts are fought with deathtoll's exceeding millions and nothing is done about it ,take the conflict in central Africa with Rwanda and Congo ,or whats happening now in Sudan with the Ganjaweed millitia's slauthering at an extreme rate.It seems the West just doesn't care ,yes diplomaticly the voice their discontent but it stays at that ,meanwhile the atrocity's just continue.On the other hand are country's like Russia and USA more than keen to sell weapons to duch country's or even rebbelion factions ,a country like the Congo sees much of it's valuable resources being sold to the west at dump prices for weapons.

Another thing to take into account with Chechnya is that essentially it's a colony ,chechnya wasn't first to atack Russia ,russia attacked and annexed it in the colonization ages and Chechnia has tried to break free from russia at lmost any point of instabilety since then.The fact that hundred's of thousands of chechnyan's have been deported under father stalin in the cold war to work towards their death into the Goelag's is kinda forgotten to.But in the end the most importnat conclusion is this:

Chechnya will never stop to rebel ,the terrorist attacks will continue as long as this russian policy towards chechnya continue's.there will probably be a number of chechen attacs like these in the following years still ,as much as you may cry about it.

It's not that russia pumps money into the country to rebuild in neither ,the country is in waste and it will stay like that ,the russian millitary will suck all the money from it with corruption and the oil revenue's from it goes to the russian state.Russia doesn't seem to be preppared to BUILD peace neither.

[AKM74. 0]

Quote[/b] ]If you compare that to Saudi Arabia for ex. ,should the USA have attacked Saudi Arabia because Osama Bin Laden was a Saudi ,aswell as most of the 9/11 bombers?

If Saudi official start public press conference, with ben laden sitting right next to them. then yes.

Quote[/b] ]The fact that hundred's of thousands of chechnyan's have been deported under father stalin in the cold war to work towards their death

The price for joining Nazis was too high? I mean what peoples did with Nazis collaborators over the Europe after end of ww2? You think instead of deport them, better to execute them and send remaining to jails? Like it happen all over the world ?

[Supah 0]

The price for joining Nazis was too high? I mean what peoples did with Nazis collaborators over the Europe after end of ww2?  You think instead of deport them, better to execute them and send remaining to jails? Like it happen all over the world ?

Not all chechens colaborated. Stalin punished the many for the crimes of the few. To betray all chechens as nazi collaborators is unfair and unbalanced. What stalin did to the chechens he did to many ethnical peoples all over russia. All under the excuse of "collaborating" with the nazi's. Face it, stalin was a criminal just like hitler for what he did to his own people. I understand you are angry but saying such things doesn't help anyone.