The Iraq thread 4

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

No, erring on the side of life is the good, decent and God fearing thing to do. It takes resolve and moral fibre to err on the side of life in a conflict zone.

What would George Bush do ?

FerretFangs-

Quote[/b] ]you'd inject him with morphine, ( the dude is unconcious, so he can't feel any pain, and he's suffering severe head trauma, so morphine is likely just to kill him as fast as a pistol round. ) and send medics to evac? You know he'd die enroute. The medics might even get killed to or from the evac. For what? Attempting to save the life of an enemy soldier, who by all rights should already be dead?

You seem to know an awful lot about what Maynulet was thinking just before he shot the guy. 'By all rights should already be dead'. Interesting phrase.

[FerretFangs 0]

I'd say those who willingly enter into armed conflict are already beyond the good, decent, and God-fearing tenets of any religion. The purpose of war, is to kill and destroy the enemy, in order to achieve goals. That said, I'm not a religious man, and I'm not adverse to armed conflict when I feel it's applicable.

As to what GWB would do, is not my concern. He'd make his own decision, I'm sure.

I simply meant to say that when one has a large section of one's head deatroyed by a high caliber projectile, it stands to reason they'd be dead before a mercy killing becomes necessary. Such are the basic mechanics of the cardio-vasular system.

And so, we return to the issue.... Obviously the level of force must be increased to prevent our troops from feeling the need to save the enemy soldiers they'd just barely failed to completely anhiliate.

Then we won't have this problem any more. Headless, and torsoless bodies are beyond morphine, or the need for a follow up bullet to the heart.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

From a purely practical standpoint 'mercy killings' are morally ambiguous at best, the US Commander in Chief seemed to think the right to life was pretty important in the Schiavo case, so having US forces executing Iraqi wounded with impunity would seem to send a strange message to any observant Iraqis watching (life is cherished, except for wounded Iraqis).

Anyway on what George jr. would do, i suppose its kind of a trick question seeing as he seems to have avoided battlefields pretty successfully so far.

[FerretFangs 0]

Well, so have I despite enlisting during Desert Storm and being sent to the Persian Gulf aboard a AC carrier. Didn't make he, nor I any less worthwhile than those who were getting shot at. It was just the nature of our particular service at the time.

And, this really isn't about GWB, is it?

[miles teg 1]

Dude have you ever seen what a 120mm HEAT round does or a JDAM? Have you ever heard of something called SHRAPNEL? Yeah thats it..use MORE force...and get MORE collateral dammage and more civilians dead. Yes, I'm sure thats the answer. Hell, lets just nuke the whole place...put all them crazy Erocky A-rabs out of their misery.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[FerretFangs 0]

OK, I think you see my point. So, I guess it isn't so bad for a guy to do the right thing, and cap a suffering badguy to expedite his passing, right? Because otherwise, you're going to see JDAM's doing the mercy killing.

[theavonlady 2]

It helps to have more details, which the major news agencies seem to be supressing for some funny reason.

Quote[/b] ]U.S. Army court-martials captain for mercy killing

Medic 'spazzed out' over suspected Iraqi terrorist with mortal head wound

Posted: March 30, 2005

1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

As brain-injured Terri Schiavo enters her 13th day of starvation in Florida after nearly a decade-long court dispute over her fate, a U.S. Army captain is being court-martialed in Wiesbaden, Germany, and facing 20 years for the mercy killing of a suspected Iraqi terrorist under battlefield conditions.

The tank commander, Capt. Rogelio Maynulet of Chicago, is being tried on a charge of assault with intent to commit murder in the May 21, 2004, mercy killing near Kufa, south of Baghdad.

Defense attorneys at the court-martial maintain that Maynulet, convinced that the man would not live, acted out of mercy. Prosecutors argue he violated military rules of engagement by shooting an Iraqi who was wounded and unarmed.

The medic, Sgt. Thomas Cassady, conceded Monday under questioning by defense attorney Capt. Will Helixon that his failure to treat the man contributed to the shooting.

"You felt guilty, that it was your fault because you didn't do your job," Helixon asked. Cassady responded: "That's correct, sir."

"You felt you should be the one in trouble," Helixon said. "Correct," Cassady replied.

Cassady testified he told Maynulet the man "wasn't going to make it."

Cassady said yesterday he failed to treat the man because he "spazzed out" at the sight of his head wound, which he described as the worst he had seen in four years as an Army medic.

Maynulet's company had been on patrol when it was alerted to a car thought to be carrying a driver for radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and another militiaman loyal to the cleric. They chased the vehicle and fired at it, wounding both the passenger, who fled and was later apprehended, and the driver.

Cassady acknowledged that Maynulet told him to care for the wounded driver.

"You ignored him because you were freaked out, you told him he's going to die?" defense attorney Helixon asked him. Cassady replied: "Yes, sir, that's correct, sir."

The medic said he had spent about one minute with the man and failed to take his pulse or check his breathing all standard practice when examining wounded. Asked why he did not treat him, Cassady said "I spazzed out at that instant." Maynulet was described yesterday by defense witnesses as "a tremendous soldier" and a man who cared about the Iraqi people.

Ironically, as the court-martial continue today, the story dominating the news in the United States continues to be the "right-to-die" case of Terri Schiavo, now in her 13th day of court-ordered starvation.

In that case, which has been the subject of acts of Congress, U.S. and Florida Supreme Court actions, new laws by the Florida legislature and rulings by more than a dozen judges, her estranged husband, Michael Schiavo contends his wife suffered a heart attack triggered by a chemical imbalance brought on by an eating disorder. Her parents, however, Bob and Mary Schindler, suspect oxygen was cut off to the brain because her husband tried to strangle her.

Maynulet, 30, was characterized by one of his superiors as one of the "top three" of roughly 37 officers he oversaw at that time, describing him as "a tremendous soldier."

Col. Bradley W. May told the court in written testimony read aloud yesterday that, while he agreed in principle against firing on the wounded, each case must be considered individually.

"To make that determination, we have to look at all the facts," May said in his statement. "It may be that some make it not as easy to determine as we would all like."

Video from a U.S. drone surveillance aircraft showed the outline of a soldier in a helmet and battle gear, identified by a witness as Maynulet, aiming a weapon at an Iraqi man lying on the ground, followed by a flash.

The man on the ground appeared to be waving his right arm before the shot. Several seconds later, he appeared to twitch as though hit again.

Defense attorneys maintain that Maynulet, convinced the man would not live, shot him to end his suffering.

In addition, Cassady conceded that he had lied during Maynulet's Article 32 hearing – the military equivalent of a civilian grand jury investigation – giving testimony about injuries the man had not suffered because he felt guilty about the incident.

In further testimony yesterday, two Iraqis who worked with Maynulet during his deployment to Iraq described him as compassionate and spoke of his helpfulness to civilians and Iraqi soldiers training for the civilian defense corps.

"Capt. Maynulet has compassion toward the Iraqi people," Maj. Yehay Haider, said in written testimony read before the court. "Capt. Maynulet cares for the Iraqis."

Such testimony plays an important role in a court-martial, where the six-member panel – the equivalent of a civilian jury – must also weigh whether the actions of the accused damaged the Army's reputation.

Maynulet's command was suspended May 25, but he has remained with his Wiesbaden-based unit.

The U.S. military has referred to the Iraqi driver only as an "unidentified paramilitary member," but relatives named him as Karim Hassan, 36. The family does not dispute that he was working for al-Sadr.

The court-martial is to continue today.

Meanwhile, a pre-trial, or Article 32, hearing next month will determine whether 2nd Lt. Ilario G. Pantano will face a court-martial that could lead to the death penalty. He is accused of killing two suspected Iraqi terrorists who, he says, refused to follow orders after their capture and made threatening moves.

[FerretFangs 0]

Yes, that does help immensely ma'am. Thank you. I think it supports the argument I've been making. This guy should have been dead, and would have died in a matter of minutes. He had a large portion of his brain matter missing, and had a gaping, caverous head wound. He was done for, beyond medical treatment. Morphine would've killed him, and he likely wasn't feeling any pain anyway.

A bullet was merciful, and shooting him was the right thing to do. Ironically, it's even the preferrable situation for the Muslim, to be killed as a martyr.

And just so that you people might have a better understanding of where I'm coming from, I am a licensed EMT/firefighter, and I am married to an active duty combat medic. This subject has some bearing on our lives. Interestingly, my wife stated that she would've ended the insurgent's life with an overdose of morphine. Which, by the letter of the UCMJ, is still probably murder.

[theavonlady 2]

Since I'm a religious person, I'm feel unqualified to determine whether a life can or cannot be terminated under any given circumstance.

However, the testimony I posted definitely points out that Captain Maynulet is not the monster he was made out to be.

[FerretFangs 0]

Well, one must keep in mind that this is a war, and that the combattants are acting to end the lives of the opposition. The moral implications are really beyond consideration, as it's "immoral" to kill, even in combat. Nevertheless, causing the death and destruction of other humans is a natural state of affairs for human beings, and always has been. Instead of struggling with the moral implications, I have come to accept war as our natural, instinctive behaviour, and am comfortable with it, within a "normal" range of parameters.

However, what we're discussing is compassion versus murder, and I do believe that this man has been ( wrongly ) persecuted for showing compassion- not for being a murderer, which of course, he is not. The ultimate result of this decision is to the detriment of the US Military, for reasons which are not in keeping with the mission at hand. Apparently a "point" had to be made, and an important tool of the apparatus has been discarded. Now, someone else must fill the vacancy, which for various reasons is grossly innefficient, at best.

I am extremely offended by gross inefficiency on the part of leadership, where it negativly impacts on the mission, and the personel who are forced to endure whatever oversights that are forced upon them as a direct result of poor leadership. My friends and family suffer because of this sort of politically correct innepptitude and negligence to the goals of the mission.

1) The mission comes first.

2) When in doubt, refer to number 1.

3) Anything that interferes with number 1, must be neutralized in as efficient and expedient manner as possible so as to return to number 1, thereby expediting completion of stated mission objectives.

[simba 0]

ofp, when realism counts

Report from. simba 2/4/2005

A recent study from our agents seems to prove that an political activity in operation flashpoint community member’s brain is over , maybe since the beginning but further inquirery demonstrate that the PoliticalEEG (encephalogram) is totally flat . “May they rest for eternity on the bed of consumption". These were the last words of our beloved pope.

Quotes

scrub "you really need to keep this in the context of the game that it is"

spqr "I'm french and I don't care about this writing "

hmmwv "This tanks will rock (inscriptions included, of course)

ferretfangs "It's realistic, and it looks good. I think the inscriptions should stay."

I’m sorry peeps but this is true , you are totally politically pathetic (TPP) , you don’t answer my questions , and when you answer something it doesn’t have any interest.

I’m gonna tell you a last time and take the problem under a new angle in order to make everybody understand why these stupid inscriptions aren’t good things to put on tanks .

There is no war here and no aggresivity just the will to make you understand something and to make you change your mind , and also to fill this fourth Iraq thread with something less trivial than the last sun glasses of “our great soldiersâ€.

I’d like to make something very clear to everybody; we are here having a debate and not an information session, in every debate the goal is to convince the others, that’ what I do and that’s what you do too. Right?

When you say something:

1) I read carefully

2) Think

3) Doubt

4) Determine if I’m wrong or right

5) Type my answer

All that as objectively as I can.

But my feeling is that some people (not all, be frank with the heavy thing behind your computer reddish eyes) just jump from point 1 to 5.

So if you still want to have this conversation, we could learn from each other but only if we aren’t closed like frightened mussels.

Ok, the thing is those markings are a pretty bad thing because it is unconscious PROPAGANDA from inq, we spread ideas in everything we do and it’s normal, propaganda (or advertising) serves a purpose making you buy a new bottle of shampoo

, a new car, accept a new law, a war…

In my previous post I was asking “why are you for this war?†nobody answered is there some kind of wall in your brain forbidding you to talk about politics when you are in entertainment phase or what? or do you intentionally didn’t answer it because you don’t know the reason maybe because everyday you on TV , in your streets , hear from relatives “ war on Irak is goooooood “ so why should I doubt about that !!

100 box question who said that if you are told enough times the same thing you will believe like it was your own idea??

do not want to overload you with to many new concepts in one day ( print my post , enlarge it , read it in bed , stick it on your bathroom mirror , paste it on your school books , and on your mother ass , you’ll see it’s gonna sound as logical as basic math).

The difference is that , I’m told as you are 100 times the same shit , but I got several sources , and instantly everything seem much more dubious, and even totally wrong ,

Until you feel manipulated.

But who wants to manipulate me then ?

Seek the interest you’ll find the bastard behind the lie.

An other interesting phenomenon is entertainment .

Some people said , what are you talking about simba !! this is a game , we should’nt talk about politics here and bother with those strange ideas.

The problem that quickly comes to mind is WHEN ARE WE SUPPOSED TO TALK ABOUT POLITICS ---------------------Å• in white house , congress ,

European parliament , ...

So when are you going to talk about politics , in the bus ,alone in your car , at work , at school , in front of tv , while making sport , in shops , in restaurant , WHEN ?

No politics is in every molecules of your life, in every finger that touch your keyboard, on every site you visit. most of you just aren’t used to notice it to why , we are influenced and we are too busy thinking about pleasure that we forget to think about what’s really happening around us , that’s true for Irak but also for politics in every country.

You are human beings try thinking by yourself, politics is for everybody that’s democracy, do they often ask your opinion, and when you give your opinion do they respect it, and if your opinion has the majority do they respect it either?? And if they don’t respect your opinion is it still democracy??

So Simba is saying again and again a lot of stupid things, I should go get me a good dinner, watch tv, smoke a p.. , have ten beers , play computer until I forget who I am , tomorrow I will go to work , during my work dream about games , girls , new mp3 player , some of these things you will get , most of them no , you will all your life run after other consumption product , (then perhaps suffer from depression , suicide , disease ) , days after days , weeks after weeks , years after years , you will use more energy than 10 (100, 1000) people of other countries , same for ground resources , and water .

One day your government will say , we don’t have any more enough drinkable water , petrol or the level of the ocean has risen of 5 cm , I’m not talking about an earthquake or a volcano DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY POINT , WE ARE RENSPONSIBLE OF WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN , AND NOBODY CAN DO IT ALONE.

But simba is still wrong those markings , that’s just for fun , it’s just telling us in a way that Irak war is good , and justify the following wars but that’s just ok , because I’m a very selfish person .

When you moddle, texture, config ,make a mission , an ofp movie it is your creation ( I know what I’m talking about) , you aren’t consuming , don’t you feel more satisfied to play with a 100 hour made addon , than with an other person addon , don’t you prefer eating the dinner you made in a hour instead of a Chinese food delivery ??

This is pleasure, consumption isn’t and like a old American said ,†harder the way to get something is ( to talk a bit like yoda) , the more pleasure you’ll get from itâ€.

MODDING COMMUNITY HAS TO STAY PURE FROM ADVERTISING, AND UNFAIR POLITICAL CONSIDERATION.

This community is also my community , it is not because I don’t talk much on the forum that I’m not attentive to what’s happening, and I do care, I read often “we aren’t like these kids of CS “, because we drive tanks , fly heli , and create mission , no I don’t think so the reason for me , and that’s I always thought is that we are people who always want more freedom , that what we are in ofp , that’s not what we are in life ,

We are the dogs of transnational companies , some believe it others doesn’t , some are dogs other not . it's up to you.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0807002348.01

[FerretFangs 0]

Simba take my advice, spend less time typing and more time talking with people face to face. That sort of diatribe is largely wasted here. But, it's your rapidly disappearing life span. Spend it as you wish.

[walker 0]

Hi all

**Breaking News!**

News is comming in of a large insurgent attack on Abu Ghraib using waves of suicide bombers, RPGs and gunfire many American soldier reported wounded.

Regards Walker

[Wilco 944]

Hi all

**Breaking News!**

News is comming in of a large insurgent attack on Abu Ghraib using waves of suicide bombers, RPGs and gunfire many American soldier reported wounded.

Regards Walker

Luckily no U.S. Soldiers were killed, though 20 were wounded.

Quote[/b] ]

Flawed Strykers still save, troops say

MICHAEL GILBERT; The News Tribune

Last updated: April 2nd, 2005 08:41 AM

Soldiers from two Fort Lewis Stryker brigades rushed to the defense of their 19-ton vehicles this week, reacting to broad media coverage of a leaked Army report.

The performance of the wheeled infantry carriers in Iraq was just one part of the report on lessons learned by the Army’s first Stryker brigade. The 120-page document was based on interviews conducted in the six weeks before the unit came home last fall.

But news reports this week that focused on flaws in the $2 million Strykers provoked strong responses from soldiers who spend long hours inside them.

“I have watched this vehicle save my soldiers’ lives and enable them to kill our nations’ enemies,” Lt. Col Erik Kurilla wrote in a letter to The News Tribune this week from Iraq, where he’s serving with the second Stryker Brigade.

“In urban combat there is no better vehicle for delivering a squad of infantrymen to close with and destroy the enemy.”

The Army report covered a wide range of strengths and weaknesses that the 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division soldiers identified in all aspects of their tenure in northern Iraq – intelligence gathering, communication networks, radio systems, fixing the local economy, working with interpreters, even dealing with embedded reporters.

A recurring theme was the challenges of a 5,000-soldier brigade taking over from an Army unit four times its size – the 101st Airborne Division – in an area spanning 14,000 square miles.

The goal of the report was to identify what worked and what didn’t, and to pass along solutions identified by soldiers and commanders in the field.

“Military leaders usually acknowledge the things going right, but tend to focus more on what needs improvement so units can learn and improve their combat readiness,” according to an executive summary of the report.

It was compiled by Army researchers who visited the 3rd Brigade in Mosul in September and October.

Col. Bob Brown, who commands the Fort Lewis brigade that took over for the 3rd Brigade in October, said much the same.

“Instead of hiding our heads in the sand and saying the Stryker is perfect, that nothing’s wrong with it,” Brown said Friday from Mosul, “the purpose is to learn from mistakes and to always improve, whether it’s the vehicle, the systems, the people, whatever.”

But it’s what the report said about the Stryker vehicles that made news this week, after it was first leaked to The Washington Post and then released by the Army on Thursday.

The Dec. 21 report by the Center for Army Lessons Learned does not compare the Stryker’s vulnerability to rocket-propelled grenades and roadside bombs with that of the more traditional military vehicles in Iraq – Humvees, M113 armored personnel carriers, M1 Abrams tanks and Bradley Fighting Vehicles.

It does outline a number of issues with the vehicle, such as:

• The slat armor cages meant to protect the Strykers from RPGs – the world’s most prevalent anti-armor weapon – are defeating about half the grenades fired at the vehicles. The Army had expected the slat armor would stop about 80 percent.

• The slat armor stops some types of RPG rounds, but doesn’t fare as well against others.

• The Stryker’s four roof-top hatches need to be better protected. Several soldiers have been killed by shrapnel from roadside bombs, RPGs and gunfire while standing in the hatches with their heads and shoulders exposed.

But closing the hatches and having all soldiers ride inside is not the answer, said Brown, who commands the 1st Brigade, 25th Infantry Division.

“You’re safer the more eyes you have out looking,” he said.

Roadside bombs are hidden. Suicide car-bombers might blend in with heavy traffic.

“You can’t get a feel for what’s going on unless you’re up looking around,” Brown said.

Soldiers from the 1st Brigade have added sandbags and other items to protect them in the hatches. The Army is also working on blast shields that soldiers could see through but that would also protect them from shrapnel, Brown said.

The report recommended that adjustable platforms be installed so soldiers can make sure they’re not standing too far out of the hatches.

Soldiers who talked to the Center for Army Lessons Learned teams had a slew of other suggestions for the vehicle, including:

• Stabilize the Stryker’s gun so that it can be fired more accurately on the move.

• Add an infrared mode to the standard and thermal modes on the camera mounted on the Stryker’s remote weapons station.

• Put more powerful speakers in the passenger compartment so everyone can hear what’s being said on the radio.

• Start an Army Stryker driving school so that new soldiers who arrive at a Stryker unit have already learned how to operate the vehicle.

Many of the issues identified in the report have already been addressed.

For instance, 3rd Brigade drivers had little practice on their vehicles with slat armor until they arrived in Kuwait. Their successors in the 1st Brigade trained extensively at Fort Lewis and at the Army’s training centers in Yakima, Southern California and Louisiana with the armor cages on their vehicles.

The 3rd Brigade was the first of an eventual six or seven Army brigades that will be equipped with Stryker technology. The idea is to create a force with more firepower, mobility and protection than light infantry units but that can be deployed more rapidly than heavy armor units.

Peter Keating, a spokesman with General Dynamics Land Systems, which makes the Strykers, said the company considers the issues identified in the report against what its own technical representatives in the field are saying, as well as different from other sources’ feedback.

The company does its own research and development on vehicle improvements, “but the final decision whether we implement that, or respond to a lesson learned, is really driven by the Army and what they say their highest priorities are.

“And usually that’s safety, security and protection,” Keating said.

Soldiers from Fort Lewis who are in Iraq or have been there with the Strykers said it’s not accurate to view the Lessons Learned report as a condemnation of the vehicles.

Sgt. Douglas Hale, 31, spent a year in Iraq with the 3rd Brigade and rode in his squad’s Stryker for hours and days at a time – 63 hours on one mission, he said. His 5th Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment troops traveled to Samarra, Tal Afar and Najaf.

By the time the 11-year soldier came home, his Stryker had rolled up nearly 20,000 miles. The 44 men in his platoon had weathered numerous firefights and taken no injuries, he said Thursday at Fort Lewis.

“I wasn’t a believer in these when I first got over there, because I’m infantry,” said Hale, a native of northeast Missouri. “But when I go back to Iraq, I don’t want to go in anything other than this.”

Lt. Col. Erik Kurilla, who commands the 1st Battalion, 24th Infantry now in Mosul, said all but three or four of his 75 Strykers are ready to roll every day. The electronics, computers, radios and cameras are reliable.

One vehicle, he said, has been hit by a suicide car bomb, nine roadside bombs, eight direct hits from RPGs and “countless” attacks with small arms. Six of the 11 men in the squad have been wounded, but none seriously enough to be sent home.

Another Stryker was hit by a suicide bomber who had 52 large artillery rounds in his vehicle. But the soldiers survived without major injuries, Kurilla wrote in a letter to The News Tribune in response to news coverage of the Lessons Learned report.

The 1st Brigade is operating with the 310 or so Strykers that its predecessors from the 3rd Brigade brought from Fort Lewis in November 2003. All told, the fleet has traveled more than 5 million miles across Iraq, officials said.

Brown said 28 vehicles have been damaged severely enough that they had to be sent to depots in Balad or back to the United States for repairs. Three or four have been total losses, he said, but most have been repaired and returned to service.

“There’s no silver bullet, no vehicle that’s not vulnerable out there,” Brown said. “But certainly the speed, the stealth, the situational awareness, the reliability, have all been incredible.”

Anyone seen that video of that Stryker being hit by a 500lb roadside bomb, rolling over one and a half times, and still being able to move on it's own power?

Edit:  Ack, article screwed up.

From

[FerretFangs 0]

If the soldiers riding in them are willing to give the Strykers a chance, and provide insight as to how they might be improved, that's all I need to know. Excellence in equipment doesn't frequently occur overnight.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Sunni Arab Elected Iraq Parliament Speaker

22 minutes ago Middle East - AP

By ANTONIO CASTANEDA, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqi lawmakers elected a Sunni Arab as parliament speaker and Shiite and Kurdish leaders as his deputies on Sunday, ending days of deadlock as they sought to balance the country's predominant religious and ethnic groups in a new government.

The selection of Industry Minister Hajim al-Hassani as parliament speaker was a step toward repairing the tattered image of the newly elected National Assembly, which had bickered for days over the post.

"It's time for the patient, Iraqi people to be treated with the dignity that God has given them," al-Hassani said as he accepted his new post.

He urged his fellow lawmakers to work together, adding that "if we neglect our duties and fail, then we will hurt ourselves and the people will replace us with others."

Hussain al-Shahristani — a Shiite and former nuclear scientist — and the Kurdish leader Aref Taifour were elected as al-Hassani's deputies.

A few days ago, no one seems to have noticed:

Quote[/b] ]Sunnis urged to join Iraqi police

Senior Sunni Muslim clerics in Iraq have urged their followers to join the country's security forces.

Sunnis form the bulk of the anti-US insurgency, which frequently attacks the police and army.

A Iraqi government spokesman said the call on Sunnis to participate in the security forces was a welcome change.

Later, four policemen and a passing driver were killed by a car bomb in the so-called Sunni triangle, a stronghold of the insurgency.

The bomb in Khan Bani Saad, 20km (12 miles) north-east of Baghdad, exploded as police were checking it.

In another incident, a US marine was shot dead while conducting a security operation in the western city of Ramadi, the US military says.

Political balance

Until recently, many Sunni clerics had branded the security forces as US collaborators.

The army and police are largely dominated by Shias and Kurds.

Ahmed Abdul Ghafour al-Samarrai of the Association of Muslim Scholars said Sunni membership was necessary to prevent the forces falling into "the hands of those who have caused chaos, destruction and violated the sanctities".

However, the group consisting of 64 clerics and scholars also told Sunnis not to help foreign troops against their own countrymen.

The change of heart appears to have been prompted by January's elections when millions of Iraqis defied the insurgents to cast their ballots, says the BBC's Caroline Hawley in Baghdad.

Sunnis mostly boycotted the vote but have since been rethinking their role in Iraq's political future.

On Friday, Iraqi lawmakers held last-minute meetings on who would be the parliament speaker of the newly elected national assembly.

However, they remain deadlocked on which Sunni candidate should take the job, the Associated Press news agency reports.

[Jinef 2]

When the server I play on is taken up by mind numbing CTI i sometimes force myself to read this dribble. It's usually depressing, angering and downright uncomfortable. I feel like punching billybob, deporting avonlady to siberia and doing unpleasant things to other people. However finally I read a post (by Simba) that actually is saying something and the only response I see is that he needs more reality ... Well reality isn't going to jump out from your computer screen, watching combat footage of Iraq and reading tedious gobbledegook devised by some bloated politician is not reality.

I don't really care about inscriptions on tanks. I know US soldiers are narrow minded morons on the whole who are designed to kill people, as are all soldiers. I know they want to express nationalism, quite more so than even the Nazis when they rolled through Europe however I don't mind, I expect that people are either offended by it or not, if they are then obviously they are terrorists and need to be gunned down on the spot. Now i'm just rambling incoherently.

Listen to Simba, he has what the rest of you seem to be lacking, situational awareness.

Realise you are worthless, Realise you are exploited, Realise you are wasteful, Realise you are selfish, Realise you are basically the worst thing that happened to this planet. Then remember your socialisation and smile

[Wilco 944]

When the server I play on is taken up by mind numbing CTI i sometimes force myself to read this dribble. It's usually depressing, angering and downright uncomfortable. I feel like punching billybob, deporting avonlady to siberia and doing unpleasant things to other people. However finally I read a post (by Simba) that actually is saying something and the only response I see is that he needs more reality ... Well reality isn't going to jump out from your computer screen, watching combat footage of Iraq and reading tedious gobbledegook devised by some bloated politician is not reality.

I don't really care about inscriptions on tanks. I know US soldiers are narrow minded morons on the whole who are designed to kill people, as are all soldiers. I know they want to express nationalism, quite more so than even the Nazis when they rolled through Europe however I don't mind, I expect that people are either offended by it or not, if they are then obviously they are terrorists and need to be gunned down on the spot. Now i'm just  rambling incoherently.

Listen to Simba, he has what the rest of you seem to be lacking, situational awareness.

Realise you are worthless, Realise you are exploited, Realise you are wasteful, Realise you are selfish, Realise you are basically the worst thing that happened to this planet. Then remember your socialisation and smile  

Nice one!

Always good to bring a little smile to the face everyday now isn't it?

[theavonlady 2]

deporting avonlady to siberia

Exile 'em to the Gulag is always the way to shut 'em up, eh?

No suprises here.

[FerretFangs 0]

At least it was funny. Move over Seinfeld, we've got Jinef, AND Simba! Really, you guys should take it on the road!

[SFWanabe 0]

Since I'm a religious person, I'm feel unqualified to determine whether a life can or cannot be terminated under any given circumstance.

When a I see a person suffering from wounds that make saving their life beyond my grasp. I would asked them if they would like me to end it now or not. I dont beileve its killing them but rather saving them.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Since I'm a religious person, I'm feel unqualified to determine whether a life can or cannot be terminated under any given circumstance.

However, the testimony I posted definitely points out that Captain Maynulet is not the monster he was made out to be.

Since I dont have the religion 'mind virus' I don't like to see, prolong or cause undue suffering for no good reason.

[theavonlady 2]

I dont beileve its killing them but rather saving them.

Yes. "Believe" is the magic word.

Quote[/b] ]Quote Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX @ April 04 2005,02:45

Quote[/b] ]Since I dont have the religion 'mind virus'

So you have the I-hate-religion 'mind virus'. I wish you a full recovery.

But we stray off topic, don't we?

A few posts ago, I quoted a BBC article about an Iraqi Sunni Fatwa being issued, telling Sunnis to cooperate with the rest of Iraq. This is now being denied. From Iraq the Model blogger Mohammed:

Quote[/b] ]Sunday, April 03, 2005

The association of Muslim Scholars denied in a statement (Arabic) that was distributed yesterday that the association is responsible for the latest fatwa that encouraged Iraqis to join the Iraqi security forces.

The latest statement from the association said that yesterday's fatwa wasn't approved by the secretary or the spokesman of the association explaining that "Um Al-Qura" mosque from which the fatwa in question was released doesn't officially represent the association.

It's obvious that there are major disputes among different wings of the association as the group that signed the fatwa includes members of the association as well as prominent supporters (like the dean of the Islamic studies college) and these people collectively make up a large part of the material and moral base of the association.

I expect this group of men who are trying to choose a more moderate and logical attitude will be subject to great pressures in the future and I think the Syrian regime which supports the radical wing of the association (represented by Harth Al-Dhari) will probably instruct its agents in Iraq to launch an assassination campaigns to eliminate those 64 men.

Mohammed.

- posted by Omar @ 20:10

[Placebo 28]

If this thread continues to go down the route of discussing religion it will also be closed.

Baron yes we know your opinion of religion, we've heard it more than enough times in the past, if you continue to flame/flamebait (and I'm talking about the war on terror thread here as well) you'll be post restricted, you know the drill by now, discuss politely without insulting people just because you hold a different opinion or belief with them, if you cannot discuss things politely find another forum, or we'll help you do that.

[theavonlady 2]

The klutzes!

Quote[/b] ]TERRORIST FEARED TO HAVE STOLEN 400 AMBULANCES

By Adnan Abdulhassan

Azzaman, 2005-03-29

The Ministry of Health has revealed that 400 of its ambulances have gone missing and insurgents are suspected of using them in their suicide car bomb attacks.

The missing vehicles have strained amublance services in the country and have made movement by the nearly 700 remaining ambulances extremely difficult.

According to Dr. Amer al-Khuzaai, deputy health minister, many of the stolen ambulances have already been used in attacks against both U.S. and Iraqi forces.

"The movement of our ambulances is highly restricted because 400 vehicles have been stolen in the past two years."

"Most of them have been used in suicide operations particulary against American patrols and checkpoints," Khuzaai said.

Insurgents are using all the tricks in the book to press their fight against the U.S.-led occupation.

They have hidden bombs in donkey carts, animal carcasses and rubbish dumps.

Khuzaai said despite security concerns the Health Ministry was pressing ahead with plans to improve ambulance services across the country.

He said ambualnces were not allowed to move during curfews and that the ministry only had 700 vehicles in its ambulance service fleet.

Khuzaai said the ministry's target was to have one ambulance for every 20,000 people.

# posted by concerned in texas : 4/3/2005 07:25:00 PM