The Iraq thread 4

[SpongeBob 0]

Quote[/b] ]<span style='font-size:19pt;line-height:100%'>British security contractors kill Iraqi civilians</span>

11/28/2005

http://www.aljazeera.com/

In a calculated effort to crush the growing resistance, the occupation forces in Iraq are attacking innocent civilians everyday but we are not given the dimensions or brutality of the atrocities being carried out thanks to the biased coverage provided by major press and broadcast outlets that purport to disseminate “the news.â€

Unfortunately worldwide media failed to give the "trophy" video showing security guards in Baghdad randomly shooting Iraqi civilians, the attention needed in the wake of numerous abuse scandals involving the U.S. brutal actions in Iraq.

Two investigations have been launched after the video was posted on www.aegisIraq.###, the Sunday Telegraph revealed. But the video has been removed.

The video, which was linked unofficially to Aegis Defence Services, and contained four separate clips, in which security guards open fire with automatic rifles at civilian cars, sparked concerns that private security firms <span style='font-size:22pt;line-height:100%'>could be</span> responsible for the deaths of hundreds of innocent civilians in the war-torn country.

The shooting took place on "route Irish", which links the airport to Baghdad, and considered one of the most dangerous roads in the world due to the number of car and roadside bomb attacks and ambushes that took place in it.

In one scene, the video showed a Mercedes is fired on at a distance of several hundred yards before it crashes in to a civilian taxi. The last clip of the video showed a white civilian car attacked with gun fire as it approached a security company vehicle. The footage showed bullets hitting the car before it comes to a slow stop.

Scottish or Irish accent can be heard in one of the video clips.

Spokesman for defence firm Aegis Defence Services - set up in 2002 by Lt Col Tim Spicer, a former Scots Guards officer - confirmed that the company was carrying out an internal investigation to see if any of their employees were involved.

But the website stated that "This site does not belong to Aegis Defence Ltd, it belongs to the men on the ground who are the heart and soul of the company".

It also contained a message from Lt Col Spicer, which reads: "I am concerned about media interest in this site and I remind everyone of their contractual obligation not to speak to or assist the media without clearing it with the project management or Aegis London.

"Refrain from posting anything which is detrimental to the company since this could result in the loss or curtailment of our contract with resultant loss for everybody."

Moreover, the Foreign Office confirmed that it launched an investigation, in conjunction with Aegis, one of the biggest security companies operating in Iraq, into the incidents described in the video. The Aegis was in charge of a number of security tasks and helped with the collection of ballot papers in Iraq’s recent referendum. It was awarded Å220 million security contract in Iraq by Bush's admin.

This is not the only security company that is following such brutal and inhuman methods in Iraq. Many security companies awarded contracts in Iraq by the U.S. government adopt similar rules.

Like the U.S. Army vehicles, which carry a sign warning drivers to keep their distance from the vehicle,  Aegis cars also carry signs reading "Danger, â€Keep back. Authorized to use lethal force."

The Sunday Telegraph said it was told by Capt Adnan Tawfiq of the Iraqi Interior Ministry which deals with compensation issues, about numerous complaints from families who say that their relatives have been shot by private security contractors while travelling.

"When the security companies kill people they just drive away and nothing is done. Sometimes we ring the companies concerned and they deny everything. The families don't get any money or compensation. I would say we have had about 50-60 incidents of this kind," Tawfiq said.

At least 100,000 Iraqi civilians, including women and children, have died in Iraq since the war was launched in March 2005. Most of the deaths resulted from air strikes carried out by the U.S.-led occupation forces, The Guardian stated last year, based on Iraqi and U.S. public health experts' accounts.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]<span style='font-size:19pt;line-height:100%'>British security contractors kill Iraqi civilians</span>

11/28/2005

http://www.aljazeera.com/

In a calculated effort to crush the growing resistance, the occupation forces in Iraq are attacking innocent civilians everyday but we are not given the dimensions or brutality of the atrocities being carried out thanks to the biased coverage provided by major press and broadcast outlets that purport to disseminate “the news.â€

Unfortunately worldwide media failed to give the "trophy" video showing security guards in Baghdad randomly shooting Iraqi civilians, the attention needed in the wake of numerous abuse scandals involving the U.S. brutal actions in Iraq.

Two investigations have been launched after the video was posted on www.aegisIraq.###, the Sunday Telegraph revealed. But the video has been removed.

The video, which was linked unofficially to Aegis Defence Services, and contained four separate clips, in which security guards open fire with automatic rifles at civilian cars, sparked concerns that private security firms <span style='font-size:22pt;line-height:100%'>could be</span> responsible for the deaths of hundreds of innocent civilians in the war-torn country.

The shooting took place on "route Irish", which links the airport to Baghdad, and considered one of the most dangerous roads in the world due to the number of car and roadside bomb attacks and ambushes that took place in it.

(snip)

Is that a editorial? That individual just throws the words "could be" to make his/her piece objective.

Quote[/b] ]Unfortunately worldwide media failed to give the "trophy" video showing security guards in Baghdad randomly shooting Iraqi civilians, the attention needed in the wake of numerous abuse scandals involving the U.S. brutal actions in Iraq.

Quote[/b] ]

The video, which was linked unofficially to Aegis Defence Services, and contained four separate clips, in which security guards open fire with automatic rifles at civilian cars, sparked concerns that private security firms could be responsible for the deaths of hundreds of innocent civilians in the war-torn country.

Quote[/b] ]

.. El Salvador?

Nah, it was US forces that freed those Sunnis from the Shiite jail.

[SpongeBob 0]

Is that a editorial? That individual just throws the words "could be" to make his/her piece objective.

Its aljazeera...

I saw the video, the part "fired on at a distance of several hundred yards before it crashes in to a civilian taxi", it didn't seem like a few hundred yards to me.

[Balschoiw 0]

You gotta love those generals...

US general defends phosphorus use

Quote[/b] ]The United States' most senior general has defended the use of weapons containing white phosphorus in Iraq.

General Peter Pace said that such munitions were a "legitimate tool of the military", used to illuminate targets and create smokescreens.

Two weeks ago, the US admitted using it to flush out insurgents in Falluja last year - raising concerns that it might have hit civilians.

Initially, the military denied using it against either insurgents or civilians.

Correspondents said having had to retract its original denial was a public relations disaster for the US.

'Within the law'

Gen Pace said no military went to greater lengths to avoid civilian casualties than the US army.

*that´s really great*

He said white phosphorus, a chemical that burns on exposure to oxygen, producing a bright light and lots of white smoke, was used primarily to illuminate a battlefield or to hide troop movements.

"It is not a chemical weapon. It is an incendiary. And it is well within the law of war to use those weapons as they're being used, for marking and for screening," he said.

If it comes into contact with human skin, white phosphorus can ignite and burn down to the bone if it is not exhausted or extinguished.

An Italian TV channel has reported that the US used white phosphorus against civilians in Falluja, and showed pictures of burned bodies.

The US has denied this.

"A bullet goes through skin even faster than white phosphorus does," Gen Pace said.

*yeah but it´s so much more fun listening to screams of burning people, yeeeehaaa*

"So I would rather have the proper instrument applied at the proper time, as precisely as possible, to get the job done, in a way that kills as many of the bad guys as possible and does as little collateral damage as possible.

"That is just the nature of warfare."

Just to illustrate his claims:

So the Us troops illuminated every house from the inside ?

I´m a bit confused now. Damn those civillians who dare to live there.

Thank god, the US didn´t sign the 3rd Protocol. Puhh.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Judge for your selves. The video is available via CorpWatch do a search I am not linking as it is included under the real death provisions of use on this site.

Walker

[Tovarish 0]

Going by that video, the new meaning of "hearts and minds" seems to be "one bullet in the chest, and one in the head to make sure"

[Balschoiw 0]

Whoooohooo !

Damn I really need to sign up with those guys !

Shooting fun on live ranges without ANY legal consequences as the Iraquis are not allowed to punish them and the US don´t feel the need to do it.

There is no legal frame for them. Who is surprised that they go on US sponsered joyrides...oh wait...the best thing is that the money they are paid with even comes from the Iraquis themselves.

Whoooooohooo !

[walker 0]

Hi

Looking at the video contextualy I hear no use of sirens or loud speakers to warn people off.

The vehicles used by contractors that I have seen are like any other so no visual cues.

While the actions on aproach of some vehicles looks questionable (in fact one vehicle looks the same as a contractor 4 by 4 so may be a blue on blue) The majority just look like normal drivers. In a few also in the case of the possible blue on blue they look like they are speeding.

In the case of the car that hit the taxi it apeared to me to be aproaching normaly.

As to the person shot in the street it apears two people were layed on the ground. I do not know what was in front so it may be that there was an ambush and the pictures show that.

The problem is obviously fundamental legality.

These are not soldiers

They are not in uniform

They are not covered by the geneva convention

There is no way of identifying them

With the probable Blue on Blue shown in the video how do we know they are not involved in the shooting of Iraqi Police or coalition soldiers?

They do not produce after action reviews to be checked by JAGs

They are probably not coordinated with Coalition solders and commands

I could go on forever with a list of what is wrong here.

Frankly this cannot continue.

Walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

More Bad news I am afraid

Quote[/b] ]Ten US marines killed in Falluja

Ten US marines were killed and 11 wounded by a roadside bomb outside the central Iraqi town of Falluja on Thursday, the US military has said.

The soldiers from the 2nd Marine Division were conducting a foot patrol when a bomb exploded, a statement issued on Friday said.

Their combat unit was taking part in a counter-insurgency operation in Anbar Province, west of the capital Baghdad.

The attack was one of the deadliest against US forces since August...

Follow link for rest othe story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4493118.stm

I thought Falluja had been pacified.

Sadly Walker

[Messiah 2]

R.e. the security contractors

Having close contact with a friend who's doing CP work in Iraq, this video is being over hyped by the media on all angles (as they always are - bad news is good news)...

granted, some acts are questionable, but in Iraq CP vehicles are identifiable by the fact that they are western vehicles, armoured and travel in convoys. The first car, and the last were engaged, in my opinion, because they approached the vehicles at speed, and came withing the 100m limit that is imposed....

bear in mind, the first vehicle was also approaching a security checkpoint... CP vehicles in Iraq carry a sign on the rear announcing that any car that approaches within 100m may be shot at (it is written in arabic as well)

in all honesty, forgetting morals etc, if i were a CP in iraq and i felt that a car approaching could possibly be my exit from this world, i'd be damn sure not to let him close.

[bn880 5]

Oh so you don't believe in warning shots or firing off flares or talking through loudspeakers to warn someone who may not have read a .... no not all contractors have marked or distinguishing vehicles....

oh this is so useless posting here for you people, you even try to justify blatant murder for fun.

Bye.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]granted, some acts are questionable, but in Iraq CP vehicles are identifiable by the fact that they are western vehicles

That´s just bull. They use Toyotas and other asian produced cars aswell. It would be kind of stupid to use western cars only, don´t you think ?

Quote[/b] ] this video is being over hyped by the media on all angles

I don´t know what to hype about that video. Sorry dude but open your eyes.

Quote[/b] ] CP vehicles in Iraq carry a sign on the rear announcing that any car that approaches within 100m may be shot at (it is written in arabic as well)

Bullshit aswell. The cars are not marked in a special way. That´s just logical as that would make them an automatic target.

I don´t know where you got that all from. Maybe some "How we should prepare our cars for Iraq" pamphlet tells so, but if you watch the news and see civvies contractors riding by you will see that it´s just theory what you are talking about.

Basically they shot on just every vehicle that dared to drive behind them, no matter how far away they were. That´s what the video shows. Now go back and check that video again as you must have missed alot....

[walker 0]

Hi all

Of course the major problem inherent with using mercenaries and private security firms is they have no vested interest in peace.

Their large profits are based on maximising conflict in order to maximise those profits and maintain their contracts.

There is an interesting brookings institute article here

http://www.brookings.edu/views/articles/fellows/singer20030601.htm

The US congress already questioned the Aegis contract

Quote[/b] ]...Five Democratic senators, led by Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts, protested the Aegis contract on humanitarian grounds, urging the Pentagon to reconsider the deal in light of Spicer's background. He is, they noted, a man with a remarkable talent for entangling himself in scandal. In August, they asked Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to review the Spicer deal. In a response last month, the Army admitted that its contracting officer was unaware of trouble spots in Spicer's past, but it refused to reconsider the contract...

Have a read of the full article

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20050110&s=ackerman

I think we shoud be using the required number of properly trained troops and not the retirees employed by private security firms as past experience has told us it often includes army rejects.

Any one remember Colonel Calan of Angola actualy he was a corporal whos service was court marshaled for robbing a post office and who famously executed several former British soldiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costas_Georgiou

Regards Walker

[Messiah 2]

Quote[/b] ] CP vehicles in Iraq carry a sign on the rear announcing that any car that approaches within 100m may be shot at (it is written in arabic as well)

Bullshit aswell. The cars are not marked in a special way. That´s just logical as that would make them an automatic target.

I don´t know where you got that all from. Maybe some "How we should prepare our cars for Iraq" pamphlet tells so, but if you watch the news and see civvies contractors riding by you will see that it´s just theory what you are talking about.

if it wasnt for the UKF server being down, i'd upload a photo to prove that you're the one talking 'bull' and not getting your facts straight.

CP cars are marked with this sign... why? well, because lets face it - 6 white guys driving through iraq in an armoured 4x4 is pretty obvious... why bother hiding the fact that you're contractors anymore? these insurgents are far cleverer than many of you seem to comprehend, and it's becoming a waste of time and life pretending not to be who you are.... far easier to protect yourselves outright.

they use a wide array of vehicles, again, i have a shed load of pictures showing them... but guess what... when you're driving round with armour plating, much thicker bullet proof glass than any normal 4x4, do-it-yourself armour plating inside the vehicles and orange banners on the windscreen to prevent the americans shooting you, what car you're in suddenly becomes irelevant... its damn obvious who you are, and what you're doing.

if you're going to attack my points and opinions, at least bring some credible and worthwhile ammunition with you, rather than having a hardon for ranting and raving about things you really dont know.

wait for the inquest is what i say, i guess it will become clear then.

bn880 - thats your opinion - but the day you, or anyone here who's defending/attacking this video goes to Iraq, does CP work, and can come back here with more credible points than i've received through my friend who's doing exactly that, then everything you've said is merely opinion. If you dont like it, fine, go, leave, i for one couldnt care less. These contractors have family and friends at home, and i'll support anyone trying to get home for christmas alive as long as its not blatant murder.

these videos are over hyped... why? becase there's no context to the attacks, all you see is 30 seconds of bad images showing none of what leads up to the engagement. Of course its going to look like random acts of violence when you dont know whats gone on before it. warning shots? loud speakers? you're dillusional - how many western contractors will speak fluent arabic, and how many are going to risk warning a possible suicide bomber, when in that time its taken to speak, fire warning shots, etc - you've given him time to attack, and warn his buddies where you are and who you are...

not sure why i wasted my breath on this topic - i doubted posting in here, but hoped that perhaps people here actually knew how to debate a point, rather than just attack it - guess i was proved wrong by a VIP no less (wtf?)

Once the UKF server is up and running, i'll host the pictures - you'll see what i'm on about. Like i said, the inquest should bring more light onto the situation - but with no way of knowing who took the videos, its not going to come to much. Whether it is considered murder, or self defence, my point still stands... are you going to wait for some insurgent to blow you up, shoot you, take you hostage and execute you in front of your family by video, or make sure that never happens? your decision.

[walker 0]

Hi all

I think the full question of the use of Mercenaries in Iraq needs to be discussed. With not less than 20,000 of them there they are a bigger contingent than the UK army in Iraq.

While some are profesional the opinion of many UK officers and soldiers particularly SAS is that that there are too many cowboys out there.

We perhaps need to start with a consideration on what the opinion of the Special Procedures of the Commission on Human Rights are on the matter

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu2/7/b/mercenaries/documents.htm

Regards Walker

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]i'd upload a photo to prove that you're the one talking 'bull' and not getting your facts straight.

You may want to get your´s straight.

Let´s make it easy. Check the vehicle that was used by contractors in Fallujah. It was an unmarked, unarmoured Mitsubishi 4x4.

How does that go with

Quote[/b] ], but in Iraq CP vehicles are identifiable by the fact that they are western vehicles, armoured and travel in convoys.

Quote[/b] ]they use a wide array of vehicles, again, i have a shed load of pictures showing them... but guess what... when you're driving round with armour plating, much thicker bullet proof glass than any normal 4x4, do-it-yourself armour plating inside the vehicles and orange banners on the windscreen to prevent the americans shooting you, what car you're in suddenly becomes irelevant... its damn obvious who you are, and what you're doing.

Check above.

Quote[/b] ]if you're going to attack my points and opinions, at least bring some credible and worthwhile ammunition with you, rather than having a hardon for ranting and raving about things you really dont know.

Check above.

I will not post pictures as a matter of forum rule violation.

Quote[/b] ]becase there's no context to the attacks, all you see is 30 seconds of bad images showing none of what leads up to the engagement.

Let´s keep it straight like you like it.

There are no indications that the mercenaries got attacked by any of those vehicles that were roasted. No single gunfirecloud, no single man holding something outside the window and no hidden rocketlauncher behind the headlights. That is what we can see on the video.

Quote[/b] ]you're dillusional - how many western contractors will speak fluent arabic

That´s ridiculous. Every single soldier in Iraq has a pocketcard with arabic phrases and you say that contractors do not have such ? What is their job then ? How could they conduct the most simple jobs without having some phrases at hands ?

What you´re saying is that they have to shoot every time they have to deal with civillians as they have no method of interaction. Sorry man, but this is blatant bull. For sure they have a pocketcard with useful phrases at hand as they wouldn´t be able to interact at all without it.

They need to identify themselves regularely. Do you think they do that by handsignals ?

Quote[/b] ]guess i was proved wrong by a VIP no less (wtf?)

OMG this world is so mean sometimes...

Quote[/b] ]re you going to wait for some insurgent to blow you up, shoot you, take you hostage and execute you in front of your family by video, or make sure that never happens? your decision.

So you would be killing everyone who crosses your way in HIS country as he could be a terrorist or a mad suicide bomber ?

I guess you somehow take the wrong approach. While they are citizens of Iraq, CP contractors are guests in the country, no more no less. To see a suicide bomber everywhere you go is just frantic and definately not contributing to help those who the CP actually are supposed to fight for.

[Messiah 2]

not quite sure what you're getting at with the first half of your post... im just going to repeat that CP vehicles, although 'unmarked' bar the sign on the rear bumper, are highly obvious to anyone who want to target them... im not quite sure why you feel that they blend in so well... if they blended in so well, then we would have so many being attacked by roadside bombs.

the vehicles in baghdad are armoured, and marked to a degree (as stated)

Quote[/b] ]Let´s keep it straight like you like it.

There are no indications that the mercenaries got attacked by any of those vehicles that were roasted. No single gunfirecloud, no single man holding something outside the window and no hidden rocketlauncher behind the headlights. That is what we can see on the video

what we also see are vehicle approaching the convoy at speed, and too closely... i for sure wouldnt want to wait and see if it was going to detonate next to me.

R.e. the arabic phrases.... yes, after posting i did remember that they would carry such things, but again after reading through this book, or shouting through the window of a moving car at another car closing from the rear... are they going to hear them? have you stuck your head out of the window of your car and communicated succesfully with a car 40m behind also moving? I think not...

the VIP comment was aimed at someone who obviously isnt conducting themselves in the way i'd expect a 'respected' member of this forum to do so. Your initial post was no more than flamebaiting and critisism, rather than a structured attempt to discuss the matter.

Why do you insist on calling them mercenaries?

i'm not a soldier or CP officer, yet i do share the same undeniable strongest human instinct, self preservation - like i said before, unless you've been in that situation, who are you to come and call them muderers and frantic? I have a funny feeling that the harderst decision you've had to make today was whether to have toast or cereal for breakfast.

[EiZei 0]

Why do you insist on calling them mercenaries?

So what excatly does not make these people mercenaries?

[Messiah 2]

FTP is working again, pictures uploaded for your benefit..

Bullet Proof Glass

Home made interior armour plating

(also have pictures of normal armour plating too)

Those very under cover vehicles you speak of (i have tons more)

(Some are either marked like so, have <, >, ^ marked on them with tape, as well as tape on the windows etc etc)

That rear warning sign that apparently doesnt exist

There you go

[edit]

From how i understand it, mercenaries are sent to kill, CP are there to protect (Excluding what the video may or may not show for now)

[EiZei 0]

That rear warning sign that apparently doesnt exist

I really need one of those for my car during winter, better keep those safety distances while driving behind me damnit!

Quote[/b] ]

From how i understand it, mercenaries are sent to kill, CP are there to protect (Excluding what the video may or may not show for now)

And how I understand it is that mercenaries are soldiers for hire. Messing around with military grade weapons and getting paid to protect some important people/installations fills that description in my opinion.

[Messiah 2]

agreed with the sign

each to their own with mercenaries - i think your decription is more accurate of what it means, but whilst they're hired, they're not hired as soldiers, more bodyguards if anything. Hence the term CP i guess?

Balschoiw, i care not for a long drawn out debate with yourself - i have provided some points of question and opinion, you have objected to them all - that is your perogative - i have provided pictures to prove many of my points, and to educate those who dont believe certain things exist on CP vehicles...

Call it divided opinion, i'm always going to have a bias because i have a mate who's doing this sort of work and will take his side of the argument with the work they're doing. I dont believe the video is conclusive, besides that many of the vehicles approach the convoy closer than the stated 100m (if they were using a sign) - i'd say that it would be local knowledge by now, not to approach a western convoy at speed, and too closely, less you get shot at.

[EiZei 0]

each to their own with mercenaries - i think your decription is more accurate of what it means, but whilst they're hired, they're not hired as soldiers, more bodyguards if anything. Hence the term CP i guess?

Bodyguard and mercenary are not mutually exclusive terms, they are both in my opinion in this particular case.

[Messiah 2]

like i said, its each to their own - i wouldnt class them as mercenaries (or have i been playing the game too much), I'd rather use their current name...

again, its your own opinion of what they are. There are points for and against calling them either i'd say... But this is hardly an appropiate discussion in this thread, its leading us off the topic if anything.

[Lt_Phoenix 0]

Since I can't be bothered to repeat everything that is said here, I'll just state that I agree with Messiah here.

In addition I'd like to add:

[Rant] Bl**dy press not getting their facts right once again eh  

All this nonsense about getting outraged because they drop some weapons that can be a bit "nasty". Well cold hard facts are that war is indeed nasty business. If the bl**dy press got it their way, we'd be fighting with water balloons... No wait… You might get hit in the eye and go blind or swallow one and choke… Now that would definately be inhumane...  

All this nonsense with this convoi business is really starting to p*ss me off. Can't people understand that it's still a warzone down there where soldiers and security contractors alike are just trying to stay alive.[/Rant]

[stainer 0]

Well said.