The Iraq thread 4

[turms 0]

Bulgaria Says Soldier Killed by U.S. Troops in Iraq

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.S. forces in Iraq, already implicated in the killing of an Italian secret agent, faced more "friendly fire" embarrassment on Monday when Bulgaria said they had probably shot dead one of its soldiers.

The Bulgarian soldier was killed in southern Iraq on Friday evening, around the same time that U.S. forces in Baghdad opened fire on a vehicle taking kidnapped Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena to the airport shortly after her captors freed her.

Reuters

Damn european commie magazines, how dare they publish such rubbish, when we actually dont know anything yet!!11

U.S. Army Struggles to Coax Recruits Amid Iraq War

Some snips from the article:

Quote[/b] ]Recruiting for the Army's reserve component -- the National Guard and Army Reserve -- is suffering even more as the Pentagon relies heavily on these part-time soldiers to maintain troop levels in Iraq. The regular Army is 6 percent behind its year-to-date recruiting target, the Reserve is 10 percent behind, and the Guard is 26 percent short.

Quote[/b] ]If the military fails to attract enough recruits and America maintains a large commitment in Iraq, the nation may have to consider some form of conscription, said Cato Institute defense analyst Charles Pena. "This is getting dicey," said Pena.

Quote[/b] ]Defense analyst Loren Thompson of the Lexington Institute said there has been a migration of recruits away from the ground forces toward services less likely to be in harm's way in Iraq -- the Navy and Air Force.

"There's a bottom line to the recruiting debate. People don't want to die," Thompson said.

Quote[/b] ]The problem is even more dire than it appears because the Army, through "stop-loss" orders, has forced thousands of soldiers designated for duty in Iraq and Afghanistan to remain in uniform when their volunteer service commitment ends, thus keeping recruiting needs artificially low, Pena said.

Any thoughts on the draft? Is it coming, or is the current situation improving?Reuters

[theavonlady 2]

Damn european commie magazines, how dare they publish such rubbish, when we actually dont know anything yet!!

No. The damn European Commie magazines would say that US troops conspired to intentionally kill the Bulgarian soldier.

Obviously you're not an avid Ill Manifesto reader.

[der bastler 0]

Neo-McCarthyism?

Neo-Leninism/Trotskyism/Stalinism?

Just for the record:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

"Since the time of the red scare led by Joseph McCarthy, the term McCarthyism has entered the American vernacular as a general term for the phenomenon of mass pressure, harassment, or blacklisting used to instill conformity with prevailing political beliefs. The act of making insufficiently supported accusations or engaging in unfair investigatory methods against a person as a purported attempt to unfairly silence or discredit them is often referred to as McCarthyism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leninism

"Leninism is a political and economic theory which builds upon Marxism (a form of Communism); it is a branch of Marxism (and it has been the dominant branch of Marxism in the world since the 1920's). Leninism was developed mainly by the Bolshevik leader Vladimir Lenin, and it was also put into practice by him after the Russian Revolution. Lenin's theories have been a source of controversy ever since their inception, having critics both on the Left (for example, social democrats, anarchists, and even other Marxists), from the center (for example, liberals), and on the Right (for example, conservatives, fascists, etc)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trotskyism

"Trotskyism is the theory of Marxism as advocated by Leon Trotsky. The term is sometimes used more loosely to denote various political currents claiming a tradition of Marxist opposition to both Stalinism and capitalism. An adherent of Trotskyism is called a Trotskyist; the term Trotskyite is pejorative."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism

"Stalinism is a brand of political theory, and the political and economic system implemented by Joseph Stalin in the Soviet Union. Leon Trotsky described the system as totalitarian, and this description has become widely used by critics of Stalinism."

Quote[/b] ]Silly insulting game you're playing, isn't it?

Why? Consult the quotes above. I must say, you are not behaving like the forum member I used to know as avonlady.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Seems brgnorway was right, the level of discussion is going down the drain...

Thanks for the assist.

You're welcome. May I re-quote you?

Sometimes I wonder whether people like you are waving red flags with hammers and sickles on them.

Reads like "Commie, Commie" and pointing fingers. Someone who dares to doubt the American version is pushed into the categorie "red flag waver". A sure sign that no discussion will be possible.

I'm sure any other discussion of waving various flags will lead to severe name-calling. Therefore let's get back to the topic. The independent has a good summary:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=617569

Quote[/b] ] CONFLICTING VERSIONS

There are some glaring discrepancies in the Italian and American versions of the killing of the agent Nicola Calipari and the wounding of released hostage Giuliana Sgrena and two other Italian secret service agents:

The Americans say: the car was travelling at high speed

The Italians say: it was travelling at 40-50kph

US: It approached a checkpoint near the airport at speed when soldiers fired on it to force it to stop as a "last resort"

Italy: It had passed three checkpoints without incident and was 700 metres from the airport when fired upon

US: The soldiers used hand signals and bright lights and fired warning shots before hitting the car with shots

Italy: There was no warning. Three to four hundred rounds were fired, afterwards the car seats were covered in spent cartridges. The Americans forced the Italians to remain in the car without medical attention for an hour

US: There was a lack of co-ordination between the Italians and the Americans

Italy: The Americans were kept fully informed

US: It was a regrettable accident which will be aggressively investigated

Italy: Ms Sgrena claims it was a deliberate ambush to kill her, as the Italians had paid a ransom, a practice America opposes, and as she had learnt inconvenient facts from her abductors.

That promises to be an interesting investigation. How many checkpoints did they pass? Where was the point of attack? The Independent writes about a turn, reducing speed.

However, this incident is weakening Berlusconi's position. I can't believe it was deliberate action. Because that would be a very, very stupid American action regarding the well-known unstable political situation in Italy.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Apparently it is now being reported that the pic of the car distributed by the Associated Press that's been widely assumed to be the one Sgrena was injured in, was not.

That´s what I already suspected two pages ago.

Quote[/b] ]Who badmouthed other forum members and the US without batting an eye.

There are facts that can´t be discussed away.

Fact is that she got shot at by US troops, fact is that the italian investigator story does not match the US official version, fact is that one got killed and two or three got injured.

I never said that they were going for it intentionally. That´s what she said. And that´s what I quoted.

As intelligence personel was included in this stunt it is unlikely that we will ever get the full pictue. I also stated that 2 pages ago.

Quote[/b] ]I jumped on countering the blind assumptions that the coalition MUST be guilty.

This is untrue, at least for me. Read then talk.

Quote[/b] ]Sometimes I wonder whether people like you are waving red flags with hammers and sickles on them.

Even if we did it would be nothing you had the right to talk about, besides that this is utter nonsense and has nothing to do with incident and the way it´s covered here on these forums.

And just to reduce the speed you´re heading for the wall Avon, here´s what I wrote :

Quote[/b] ]Over 400 shots were fired at the car, wich is obviously not the one on the picture last page.

Any comments on this ?

I doubt that Italian authorities did not inform the US troops about the transport.

The way Berlusconi reacted yesterday indicated that something went definately wrong. Too bad we will never know as two pro-war parties are involved that are both known for their support for each other, so don´t expect to get any detailed report.

You know it´s funny that we still wait for the investigation results on multiple incidents, like cruise missiles on public places and such. It happened almost 2 years ago, but still no word about that "indepth investigations".

If you have a pretious cargo like that aboard you DO inform your coaltion partners about it to provide a safe passage to the airport.

Lack of communication ?

Don´t put words into my mouth !

[theavonlady 2]

Neo-McCarthyism?

Neo-Leninism/Trotskyism/Stalinism?

Just for the record:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

"Since the time of the red scare led by Joseph McCarthy, the term McCarthyism has entered the American vernacular as a general term for the phenomenon of mass pressure, harassment, or blacklisting used to instill conformity with prevailing political beliefs. The act of making insufficiently supported accusations or engaging in unfair investigatory methods against a person as a purported attempt to unfairly silence or discredit them is often referred to as McCarthyism."

Yes, that's very exciting. What you don't seem to realize is that one can be simultaneously anti-Communist and anti-McCarthyist.

What's the unique dictionary term for the act of making insufficiently supported accusations or engaging in unfair investigatory methods against the US as a purported attempt to unfairly silence or discredit them?

Oh................... how handy. There isn't such a unique term.

Quote[/b] ]You're welcome. May I re-quote you?

Quote[/b] ]Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 07 2005,06:52)

Sometimes I wonder whether people like you are waving red flags with hammers and sickles on them.

Reads like "Commie, Commie" and pointing fingers. Someone who dares to doubt the American version is pushed into the categorie "red flag waver". A sure sign that no discussion will be possible.

I was responding to Bals' post calling my post "Avon flag waving". Funny how you didn't perk up until now.

And I don't have problems with doubts but what's gone on here is a lynching without a trial. And not so suprisingly, Sgrena own verbatim words from the most recent interviews don't jive with her original claims and those of Ill Manifesto's staff, that there was nothing less here than a conspiracy to kill her.

And I repeat for the 3rd or 4th time, I do not view at this point the US troops that opened fire as innocent or not. How in the world can I draw such a conclusion based on the facts made public until now.

Yet it doesn't bother you one bit that the kangaroo judges on this kanagroo court are extatic about making claims with no factual foundation to back them up. As long as it's for the cause, it's legitimate. The truth can wait.

[der bastler 0]

I was responding to Bals' post calling my post "Avon flag waving". Funny how you didn't perk up until now.

I've been following this thread this morning since page 141. You appeared at p143 with a post regarding trigger happy people. You doubted the number of hits, you doubted the speed of the car. And you mentioned

Quote[/b] ]And what if everything so far is speculation based on the word of a rabid anti-American and her Leninist rag fellow staffers?

At that point of discussion most of your points were discussed, so that got you a first from my side, but I stayed silent and continued to read.

Soon RalphWiggum responded and you did an retreat ("I fail to fathom...").

So Balschoiw brought the flag thingy. And you responded with "commie, commie!". Second from me and I dropped in.

Now we are here, viewing back and I'm asking "Who perked up when and where"...

[Wilco 944]

In a way, it's true.  Balschoiw should know, do you have time to think in combat?

Edit:  This is in no way meant to mock the death of Nicola Calipari, may he Rest in Peace  .

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Just noticed the story is from Al Jazeera. Pass me a grain of salt, please.

Simply pathetic.Is it Aljazeera views or are they reporting from a press conference that dozens of agency attended,my guess is the second.

Quote[/b] ]The press conference was attended by more than 20 Iraqi and foreign media networks, including the Iraqi ash-Sharqiyah TV network, the Iraqi as-Sabah newspaper, the U.S. Washington Post and the Knight-Ridder service.

Talk about reeking with bias,I seriously recomand you to largen your perspective right now you are closing the same league with Wahabi extremists that no mather what you tell them and edvidence you sustain they will  brush off any of your sources as being from apostates and infidel affliated organisations.

Several days have passed. I cannot find this story at any of the press agencies or networks you've mentioned and those left unmentioned.

The only other place it shows up besides Al Jazzera is one of the Chechnyan terrorist's main web sites (no link, as it might break forum rules), other Jihadi sites and US and Euro left sites. Birds of a feather............................

I'm sure there's a logical explanation.

Sure there is AvonLady,and you must be prety blind not to see it.It serves the Jihadi sites agenda to post the story about US military using napalm and chemical weapons to point out their ruthlesness and the need for Muslims to mobilise and join the resistance.

I am sure they weren't shy on quoting CNN when they had exclusivity on the abuse photos story so I fail to see your argument.

Here is another theory for you.Aljazeera hadn't in fact lied on the Health Ministry meeting with the journalist taking place and many agencies taking part,using the health official name and quoting him so on and so forth,they had exclusivity on the story and the other news agencies are doing a poor job in reporting the story brushing it aside as lacking truth and probably got a nice denial comment from US military official satisying themselves not to raise any further questions.

Class, today's word is:

gullibility

n : tendency to believe too readily and therefore to be easily deceived [syn: credulousness]

Here's Knight Ridder's response to my query to them of the report's veracity:

Quote[/b] ]From: ******** [mailto:********@krwashington.com]

Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 9:39 PM

Subject: an answer

Below is the response from our bureau chief in baghdad. We have asked our reporters to continue to monitor this and if there is believable corroboration then to do a story.

Hope this helps and thanks for asking.

********

The response:

yes we (an Iraqi staffer) were at that press conference. We hear these rumors about every five days. I've never seen anyone independently verify it. We dutifully ask the military and they, of course, say it's hogwash.

we've never taken this claim very seriously. usually, it comes with reports of iraqis dying of mysterious sores and other weird ailments, that usually turn out to have some perfectly logical explanation.

Like I said, birds of a feather.............

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]yes we (an Iraqi staffer) were at that press conference.

"Here is another theory for you.Aljazeera hadn't in fact lied on the Health Ministry meeting with the journalist taking place and many agencies taking part"

Quote[/b] ]We dutifully ask the military and they, of course, say it's hogwash

"...and the other news agencies are doing a poor job in reporting the story brushing it aside as lacking truth and probably got a nice denial comment from US military official satisying themselves not to raise any further questions."

Why thank you AvonLady for confirming every single word I've said.

Is this a new form of debating which implies confirming your opponent's claims to the last drop?  

[quicksand 0]

Video Shows U.S. Soldiers in 'Ramadi Madness' Abuse

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. Army soldiers in Iraq (news - web sites) filmed themselves kicking a gravely wounded prisoner in the face and making the arm of a corpse appear to wave, then titled the effort "Ramadi Madness" after the city where it was made

The video, made public on Monday, was shot by Florida National Guard soldiers. They edited and compiled it into a DVD in January 2004, with various sections bearing titles such as "Those Crafty Little Bastards" and "Another Day, Another Mission, Another Scumbag."

The soldiers' unit served in the restive Sunni Muslim city Ramadi, about 70 miles west of Baghdad, before returning home a year ago.

The video's existence had been revealed in Army documents obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) under court order through the Freedom of Information Act.

The Pentagon (news - web sites) did not release the video, saying it believed it had been destroyed. But a Florida newspaper, The Palm Beach Post, obtained it and posted some of it on its Web site on Monday.

The ACLU has obtained thousands of pages of documents from the Pentagon and said they show an pattern of widespread abuses of detainees by military forces in Iraq. Digital pictures that were disclosed last year of U.S. soldiers abusing prisoners at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison drew international condemnation.

Soldiers depicted in the new video would not face criminal charges, the Pentagon said.

One section of the video showed a bound and wounded prisoner sprawled on the ground, and showed his bullet entry and exit wounds. At one point, a U.S. soldier kicked the prisoner in the face.

Army documents quoted a soldier at the scene as saying he "thought the dude eventually died. We weren't in any hurry to call the medics."

WAVING CORPSE

In another part of the video, a soldier grabbed the arm of a truck driver who had just be shot dead and makes the corpse wave to the camera.

The events that preceded the incident were not shown on the video. The newspaper reported that U.S. troops had stopped the truck and ordered the driver to step out, but he ran back into the vehicle and sped away only to be shot dead by an American soldier. It said the booby-trapped rear door of the truck exploded.

Documents released by the Pentagon showed that Army criminal investigators looked into the matter and decided no criminal charges were warranted against the soldiers. Documents showed that the Army deemed the actions shown on the video "inappropriate" rather than criminal.

"It didn't rise to the level of criminal abuse, according to the investigations," said Lt. Col. Jeremy Martin, an Army spokesman at the Pentagon. "Clearly, the soldiers probably exercised poor judgment ... and I'm sure that they were admonished by their command for their actions."

Ramadi has been a flash point in the guerrilla war that followed the U.S.-led ouster of President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) in 2003. More than 1,500 U.S. troops have been killed in the war.

ACCOUNTABILITY

ACLU lawyer Jameel Jaffer said the Army documents indicated that a soldier stated he destroyed disks containing the video to avoid having it released to the news media, and a colonel stated the unit's leaders likely would destroy copies.

 

"It's difficult for me to understand why nobody was held accountable for the abuse of detainees here. There's no justification for kicking an enemy prisoner of war when he's wounded on the ground in front of you and about to die," Jaffer said.

"Clearly, there's some stuff in this video that's inappropriate but not criminal. But then there's quite a lot of other stuff in here that does seem to be criminal," Jaffer added.

The Palm Beach Post stated on its Web site it did not post video showing the gruesome aftermath of a suicide bombing and excluded the audio portion because of profane language.

Focus on this part:

Quote[/b] ]The ACLU has obtained thousands of pages of documents from the Pentagon and said they show an pattern of widespread abuses of detainees by military forces in Iraq.

It's for the first time I've read "documentated pattern of widespread abuses".

I myself am begining to see a pattern of policy in US military,revealing only half truths,downplaying significance of every controversies Iraq had until today and in some cases lying through it's theets all wrapped up in a "Support our troops,don't ask questions" play.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]yes we (an Iraqi staffer) were at that press conference.

"Here is another theory for you.Aljazeera hadn't in fact lied on the Health Ministry meeting with the journalist taking place and many agencies taking part"

Quote[/b] ]We dutifully ask the military and they, of course, say it's hogwash

"...and the other news agencies are doing a poor job in reporting the story brushing it aside as lacking truth and probably got a nice denial comment from US military official satisying themselves not to raise any further questions."

Why thank you AvonLady for confirming every single word I've said.

What's the matter? Did the bottom line of their reply drop off of your monitor? Check your screen's horizontal-hold setting:

Quote[/b] ]we've never taken this claim very seriously. usually, it comes with reports of iraqis dying of mysterious sores and other weird ailments, that usually turn out to have some perfectly logical explanation.

In other words, the press, too, considers this hogwash.

You are what you eat.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]What's the matter? Did the bottom line of their reply drop off of your monitor? Check your screen's horizontal-hold setting:

I fail to see how it comes in contradiction with what I've posted.We were debating Al-Jazeera credibility.All you did was to strenghten my point that they did everything right in their article.The meeting had indeed occoured with all the agencies taking part,they quoted the Health official and have not expressed their own views.

Now on to the Health official claims from the first second I took into account his subjectivity.I also realised that the US military with their net superiour armored air power and judging by their casualties probably had suficient capability to take Fallujah without using those banned weapons.

But further documentation of the siege is needed be it in the form of biased Iraqis.We still don't know the civillians killed during the siege and what their needs curently are.All I keep reading by everyone who went there is:city devastated and in complete ruins,mosque destroyed no food,no running water and not enough help.

Fact is more independent research is mandatory for revealing the facts and truth,a nice denial from the US military is quite obvious not satisfactory.

[theavonlady 2]

Fact is more independent research is mandatory for revealing the facts and truth

No problem.

Quote[/b] ]a nice denial from the US military is quite obvious not satisfactory.

I don't believe that anyone (individuals or institutions) should have to deal with every nonsensicle accusation that everyone can hurl their way day in and day out.

Your "Ramadi Madness' post above is a good example of where the military will have to further respond. I do not see why the soldier who allegedly kicked a wounded enemy should get off scot free.

[Balschoiw 0]

All that communists in Italy....

Italy Foreign Minister Disputes U.S. Claim

Quote[/b] ]ROME - Italy's foreign minister said Tuesday that the car carrying an intelligence officer killed by U.S. fire in Iraq (news - web sites) last week was not speeding up and did not receive signals to stop, countering suggestions by American authorities.

Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini, speaking to parliament, also ruled out suggestions that the shooting that killed Nicola Calipari was the result of an ambush, but reiterated the government's demands for a full explanation from Washington.

Fini was the first Italian official to openly dispute the U.S. account, and his comments put fresh pressure on Washington to get to the bottom of the matter. President Bush (news - web sites) has promised a full investigation.

Calipari, 50, was shot Friday as he headed to the Baghdad airport after securing the release of Giuliana Sgrena a month after the Italian journalist was abducted by Iraqi gunmen.

"The car was traveling at a velocity that couldn't have been more than 40 kilometers (25 miles) per hour," Fini said. There were no attempts to stop the car, as indicated by the U.S. military, he added.

Sgrena has said the shooting might have been intentional because the United States opposes Italy's policy of negotiating with kidnappers. Fini dismissed that hypothesis as "groundless."

"It was an accident," he told lawmakers. "This does not prevent, in fact it makes it a duty for the government to demand that light be shed on the murky issues, that responsibilities be pinpointed, and, where found, that the culprits be punished."

He said Calipari, an experienced officer who had negotiated the release of other hostages in Iraq in the past, "made all the necessary contacts with the U.S. authorities," both with those in charge of airport security and with the forces patrolling areas next to the airport.

Several Rome newspapers have said a lack of communication between Italian intelligence and U.S. forces may have led to the gunfire. La Repubblica daily, citing unnamed U.S. military sources, said that Italian officials did not send notice of the hostage's liberation or of the type of vehicle she was being carried in.

Fini stressed that the U.S. government is an allied country that has promised full cooperation.

...

Italian military officials said two other intelligence agents were wounded in the shooting; U.S. officials said it was only one. Sgrena rejected the U.S. military's account of the shooting, claiming that American soldiers gave no warning before they opened fire.

Those commies really can ruin the day. I wonder why there is no official statement on soldiers account already. Shouldn´t take that long to tell an ally what really happened.

[theavonlady 2]

I wonder why there is no official statement on soldiers account already.

Actually, Italian FM Fini himself reveals part of the US soldiers account, at the very bottom of this Reuters article:

Quote[/b] ]The intelligence officer who survived the attack was forced to kneel in the road until the soldiers realized who he was.

"Two young Americans approached our officer and, demoralized, they repeatedly apologized for what had happened," Fini said.

So now we have to know specifics like driving speed, searchlights, roadblock, signals, reasons for suspicion, inter-forces communications, etc.

"Premeditated homicide" as Ill Manifesto claims? Hardly.

[theavonlady 2]

Three relevant article on Newsday about US engagement rules:

U.S. engagement rules under fire

Deadly cases of mistaken IDs

Transcript: Solider address civilian shootings

[denoir 0]

Question: How many US checkpoints have been blown up by suicide bombers?

[theavonlady 2]

Question: How many US checkpoints have been blown up by suicide bombers?

A simple Google will show numerous.

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ]

Several days have passed. I cannot find this story at any of the press agencies or networks you've mentioned and those left unmentioned.

The only other place it shows up besides Al Jazzera is one of the Chechnyan terrorist's main web sites (no link, as it might break forum rules), other Jihadi sites and US and Euro left sites. Birds of a feather............................

Birds of a feather?

I love it when conservatives lump all the political groups they don't like together with the most heinous organizations.

Yes Avon Lady, that's it, all those damn leftist groups are all terrorists...all birds of a feather out to destroy Israel and America.

If that was true I'd be making exclusively Jihadi missions for Lost Brothers with the Arabs, Osama at their lead, destroying the Zionists in each and every mission with every Jewish man and woman being slaughtered!

I would have posters of Osama bin Laden all over my room and cheer for every American and Israeli death civilian or military on TV. Yeah, us liberals who served our country's armed forces must just hate our former brothers and sisters in uniform. They're all baby killers according to liberals right?

Yes, that must be it Avon Lady, every leftist out there wants to decapitate the heads of every Jew and Christian right? We all want to convert to Islam so we can go do Jihad against the infidels...with a bonus of getting to wear turbans!

Ah that must be it! That must be why we are disgusted with Bush and this war in Iraq. Surely it can't be because of the lies told to the American public about why we were going to war, or the documented usage of cluster bombs on civilian populations, or the documented attrocities committed in Abu-Graeb, or the many contacts we might have with soldiers in Iraq who readily admit to have witnessed war crimes that Al-Jezeera exploits fully to incite the Islamic world against America. Surely it can't be because us liberals see American policies in the Middle East only causing terrorism and Islamic extremism to grow like wildfire rather then surpressing it.

Nah..it couldn't be that because liberals hate America and hate freedom and democracy right?

By your logic the mosques in America and Europe should be packed with Arab loving liberal militant hippies hell-bent on destroying America, Israel, and freedom and democracy.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]So now we have to know specifics like driving speed, searchlights, roadblock, signals, reasons for suspicion, inter-forces communications, etc.

driving speed: 40 -50 according to driver and minister

The rest is too cloudy right now.

And that´s where we eventually will see no details anytime soon for that "under investigation" reasons we already know from multiple other incidents that happened over 2 years ago and are still "under investigation".

Maybe the international importance of this issue will speed up the process as the incident happened among two war parties but right now we all have to sit back and take what´s coming from various directions, although I have to say that the most detailed info comes from Italy right now. Of course there is still the possibility that Italy didn´t inform the US forces at Baghdad airport, but that wouldn´t justify the use of force against a civillian car. No matter if Iraqui Joe was sitting in it or same high valuable person from Italy.

[miles teg 1]

That's my bet:  That Italy either did not inform US forces in the area about the hostage handoff or that the information was given, but did not get passed down to units on the ground in that area.  

Killing a released hostage (even a commie hostage) would serve no purpose whatsoever for the US military.  If they wanted to kill her they would have done so assuming that they stopped the vehicle she was in and were the ones who got her medical aid.   I have not read anywhere whether the vehicle was stopped or if the driver kept driving to a safe area.  The media (all sides) have been REALLY sloppy in convering this story.  If the US military did render medical aid, then THEY SHOULD BE ALL OVER THE INTERNATIONAL MEDIA saying as such.   This would disprove the hostage's claim that they were purposefully trying to kill her.

I swear, the US military and the US government just plain SUCK at psychological operations.  Whoever is managing the State Department's international PR department should be fired.  Instead they are just letting this story take on a life of its own by clamming up and not aggressively taking a stand against the accusations laid out by the reporter.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[sanctuary 19]

Personnally, with nothing found on the internet that is always right because it is on the internet to back up my opinion, here is my random uneducated thoughts :

On my opinion, there was no US plot to kill the recently freed hostage and her escorts, there was just a bunch of paranoid imbeciles brainwashed by their military and governement stupidity.

Certainly young enough to think life , peace, democracy and freedom are so simple that guns are the solution to all.

But as i said, no link from the internet that is knowing all to back up, just my opinion.

One day, to copy an old joke from old humorists of my country, i will certainly write a book about the bad hunter that has a gun and shoot to the bushes when they move , and the good hunter that have a gun and shoot to the bushes when they move, but are good hunters.

[denoir 0]

It would make no sense to try to kill them, not to mention, had they wanted them dead, they would all be dead. Those accusations are plain silly.

No, it was a fuckup of some sort. And it doesn't really matter whose fault it was, because there's only one choice there. No way in hell are the Italians going to accept that the men now declared national heroes were to blame. The only solution is a strong mea culpa from the US side, and that's exactly what has been happening. Bush made a formal apology and there have been few attempts of shifting the blame on the Italians. Even the initial reports, that the car was speeding and ignored warning signals, are not being repeated by the US.

Right now the best path for the Bush administration is to apologize, to say that shit happens, cooperate with any Italian investigation - and simply let time do its healing.

[Wilco 944]

It would make no sense to try to kill them, not to mention, had they wanted them dead, they would all be dead. Those accusations are plain silly.

No, it was a fuckup of some sort. And it doesn't really matter whose fault it was, because there's only one choice there. No way in hell are the Italians going to accept that the men now declared national heroes were to blame. The only solution is a strong mea culpa from the US side, and that's exactly what has been happening. Bush made a formal apology and there have been few attempts of shifting the blame on the Italians. Even the initial reports, that the car was speeding and ignored warning signals, are not being repeated by the US.

Right now the best path for the Bush administration is to apologize, to say that shit happens, cooperate with any Italian investigation - and simply let time do its healing.

True.

Friendly fire is and always will be a part of war.

[breaker44 0]

Well said Denoir. I'm glad someone else sees this incident as an accident and nothing more.

-BreakerOut

Oh, and sanctuary, I'm one of those brainwashed soldiers-Watch yer mouth, show some respect.