The Iraq thread 4

[bn880 5]

Iran next?.............hahahaha, i really dont think so, not unless the american people dont learn from their mistakes.

It is already decided by "the people" as they kept the same peopple in charge. Now what these failures decide to do, we will see.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Iraqi Forces Seize Top Zarqawi Aide in Iraq

42 minutes ago World - Reuters

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraqi forces have captured one of al Qaeda ally Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's top bomb-makers in Iraq, the prime minister's spokesman said Monday.

Sami Mohammed al-Jafi, known as Abu Omar al-Kurdi, is accused of being behind some 32 car bombings since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, it said.

Kurdi has been in Iraqi custody for over a month, but his capture was announced just a week before Iraq's landmark elections in which Prime Minister Iyad Allawi is running on a list that promises to bring security to beleaguered Iraqis.

"Kurdi has confessed to some 75 percent of the car bombs that were used for attacks in Baghdad since March 2003 and to making the explosives used in the attack on the Jordanian embassy in August 2003," spokesman Thair al-Naqib said.

"Kurdi also confirmed he was responsible for some of the bloody attacks on the police."

Iraqi forces said they also captured another insurgent earlier this month, Nayef Abbas al-Zubaydi, who heads the Abu Talha group linked to the Jordanian militant Zarqawi in the lawless northern city of Mosul, Naqib said.

Zubaydi, known as Abu Moawiya, was captured barely two weeks after the arrest of the previous leader of the group, Zain Abdallah Salah Khalaf al-Jib, or Abu Karam.

In an audio tape posted on the Internet Sunday, Zarqawi vowed all-out war against the elections and described those planning to participate as "infidel voters."

Insurgents have stepped up attacks intended to derail Iraq's Jan. 30 poll. Zarqawi has claimed responsibility for some of the bloodiest suicide bombings and hostage beheadings to hit the country.

[Ares1978 0]

Off topic, sorry.

wow, nice to know that gun control is in works. can't beleive the phrase 'an armed society is a polite society' is not working...

Well, it worked before. Then somebody invaded and people got pissed off and started shooting back.

In my opinion they are disarming the society that was polite.

[python3 0]

kinda seems ridiculous that all of his "top aides" keep getting captured and yet he is nowhere to be found and his organization is nowhere near being destroyed.

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well, it worked before. Then somebody invaded and people got pissed off and started shooting back.

In my opinion they are disarming the society that was polite.

For that to work a society needs to have some previous understanding of the value of co-operation and amicable co-existence, even if you don't -like- your neighbor. To understand that it's all for the benefit of the whole. Currently in Iraq these insurgents are establishing a very destructive precedent for the general populace in terms of forming a peaceful society. I'm not saying it's all their fault. However I think Iraq, because it's been thrown into two radically different situations, both violent oppression and then violent rebellion with the insurgency, needs a period where they have time to learn and be taught that civility starts with understanding you can coexist with people you don't agree with and still maintain your personal rights without taking up a gun and blowing people away.

It's something of an ignorant redneck fallacy in the U.S to think that because you've got a constitutional amendment to bear arms that it's keeping you from being killed or your rights or opinions infringed upon. No. Your society has established a set of morals and a general social conscience that essentially implies everyone would rather coexist peacefully than attempt to subjugate or avenge the actions of another. It's a bitter cycle that does more damage than it does good.

You don't give an irresponsible child a gun, and you don't give a developing nation the right to arm every citizen to the teeth. You need to learn the basics of responsibility first. That's just common sense.

[red oct 2]

dunno if this was posted but its a interesting article

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6852832/

[Ares1978 0]

You don't give an irresponsible child a gun, and you don't give a developing nation the right to arm every citizen to the teeth. You need to learn the basics of responsibility first. That's just common sense.

You don't turn a developed nation into a developing one, either.

Keep in mind that they aren't shooting at each other that much. Mainly at invaders and collaborators. I think the situation in Iraq is a good example of why a nation, developing or not, should be armed. And considering the situation, the Iraqis are not really the ones lacking in responsibility, are they.

Common sense for the invaders would of course be to disarm everybody, but I don't see any reason to support them.

[denoir 0]

I think the situation in Iraq is a good example of why a nation, developing or not, should be armed. .

Yeah, the situation couldn't be better. RPG's to the criminals, terrorists et al, that's what's required to make a decent society!

Quote[/b] ]Keep in mind that they aren't shooting at each other that much.

No, the just blow up Mosques and town squares every second day. People (normal Iraqis) are being kidnapped, robbed and killed every day and the police can't do anything, because they're outgunned. Quite a lovely society, wouldn't you say?

[Ares1978 0]

Yeah, the situation couldn't be better. RPG's to the criminals, terrorists et al, that's what's required to make a decent society!

No, the just blow up Mosques and town squares every second day. People (normal Iraqis) are being kidnapped, robbed and killed every day and the police can't do anything, because they're outgunned. Quite a lovely society, wouldn't you say?

Didn't I say that it worked before?

Not start ranting about gun control too much here, but come on, the only way you'll get the guns away from the criminals and "terrorists" is to shoot them and pry it from their cold dead hands.

[denoir 0]

Not start ranting about gun control too much here, but come on, the only way you'll get the guns away from the criminals and "terrorists" is to shoot them and pry it from their cold dead hands.

Yeah, look how good that is working out in Iraq.

You're forgetting that they can shoot you and pry your weapon from your cold dead hands. Incidentally, that's exactly what they're doing.

[Ares1978 0]

Yeah, look how good that is working out in Iraq.

You're forgetting that they can shoot you and pry your weapon from your cold dead hands. Incidentally, that's exactly what they're doing.

Yeah, I wonder how well gun control will work.   I bet they'll all be going "Holy crap, it's against the law??"

Well, at least those who are armed, can shoot back.

[starbegotten 0]

Just read this on BBC online...... a shoe in for OFP 2? ;)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4199935.stm

[Ares1978 0]

ED-209  

[ruff 102]

well a lot of people die or get injured in iraq

so if they leave now for sure iraq is gonna be a real trouble spot

no matter what was the reason for going in right or wrong they have to stay till its fixed

and i just cant believe how much people are getting killed. the insurgency is even attacking mosques when they claim they are fighting in the name of the same god. their the same religion!!!!! no americans are in the mosques so why attack it? i cant believe these terrorists. everyone knows they want to start a civil war so why not the two islamic parties declare war on the insurgency?

i reckon to fight terror u gotta use terror. u gotta make ur enemy sick of war and blood. u.s. still uses minimal restraint . i reckon take no insurgency prisoners and kill everyone in the insurgency to freaken scare the crap out of them. kill the family members of the insurgency so that there is terror for terror. do what they did with pablo escobar!! insurgents, kill 4ppl, 1 insurgent captured 5 of his family members die right in front of him and then kill him.

terror for terror is the answer. those beheading make my blood boil.

[EiZei 0]

i reckon to fight terror u gotta use terror. u gotta make ur enemy sick of war and blood.

u.s. still uses minimal restraint . i reckon take no insurgency prisoners and kill everyone in the insurgency to freaken scare the crap out of them. kill the family members of the insurgency so that there is terror for terror. do what they did with pablo escobar!! insurgents, kill 4ppl, 1 insurgent captured 5 of his family members die right in front of him and then kill him.

terror for terror is the answer. those beheading make my blood boil.

So let me get this straight.. you want a war that would kill even more people and cause unprecedented economic damage because few people got beheaded?

[Ares1978 0]

i reckon to fight terror u gotta use terror. u gotta make ur enemy sick of war and blood. u.s. still uses minimal restraint . i reckon take no insurgency prisoners and kill everyone in the insurgency to freaken scare the crap out of them. kill the family members of the insurgency so that there is terror for terror. do what they did with pablo escobar!! insurgents, kill 4ppl, 1 insurgent captured 5 of his family members die right in front of him and then kill him.

terror for terror is the answer. those beheading make my blood boil.

Well sure it works, but the cure will be worse than the disease.

On another forum (maybe this one too at some point), I pitched the idea (not seriously, it was just to see their reactions) that every time somebody commits an act of terrorism in the name of his religion (any religion), you nuke one of his holy cities, starting from the most important one.

[Frisbee 0]

On another forum (maybe this one too at some point), I pitched the idea (not seriously, it was just to see their reactions) that every time somebody commits an act of terrorism in the name of his religion (any religion), you nuke one of his holy cities, starting from the most important one.

Let us start with Rome, or whatever city the US religious right considers as holy shall we?

[Ares1978 0]

The Vatican. But sure, why not.

You didn't think I'm a christian or that I have any sympathies for the US religious right, did you?

[denoir 0]

31 killed in Marine chopper crash [CNN]

Quote[/b] ]

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A U.S. Marine Corps helicopter crashed early Wednesday in western Iraq killing 31 people, military officials said.

The chopper crashed near Ar Rutbah at about 1:20 a.m. local time (5:20 p.m. Tuesday ET). It was carrying personnel from the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing and the 1st Marine Division.

Military officials said a search and rescue team was at the site and an investigation of the crash was under way.

The crash came as insurgents targeted multinational troops, Iraqi security forces, government offices and polling places across the country.

Three car bombs within an hour killed five people and injured six others in Tamim province Wednesday, according to the police chief in Kirkuk.

The bombs exploded between 11 a.m. and noon (3 and 4 a.m. ET), said Maj. Gen. Torhan Abdul Rahman. The first was in the town of Riyadh, about 30 kilometers (19 miles) west of Kirkuk, and targeted a police station, he said. Three Iraqi police officers were killed and three civilians injured.

The second detonated outside the Riyadh mayor's office, killing two Iraqi soldiers. The third bomb exploded outside Riyadh and targeted a U.S. military convoy. Three other Iraqi civilians were wounded.

A U.S. soldier was killed Wednesday when insurgents attacked a combat patrol with grenades near Ad Duluiyah, military officials said.

The soldier, from the 1st Infantry Division, died and two others were wounded in the attack about 11:20 a.m. (3:20 a.m. ET). The injured were taken to a military hospital for treatment; one was in serious condition, while the other was in stable condition, authorities said.

Four multi-national soldiers were wounded Wednesday when a car bomb exploded near a convoy in southwestern Baghdad, along the road to the city's airport, a source with the U.S. Army's 1st Cavalry Division said.

The attack took place about 10 a.m. (2 a.m. ET) on the road, which has been one of the country's bloodiest locations in recent months. The nationalities of the wounded soldiers were not immediately known. U.S. troops sealed off the area after the explosion.

Three Baghdad schools to be used as polling centers in Sunday's election were attacked Tuesday night, an Iraqi police officer said. A bomb planted at a fourth school was defused.

About 8 p.m. (noon ET), Salah al-Deen school in northern Baghdad was damaged when insurgents threw a grenade at it, authorities said. Thirty minutes later, a bomb exploded near the main gate of Al-Fursan school in southeast Baghdad, causing damage, police said.

About 10:30 p.m. (2:30 p.m. ET), Al-Balquees school in northern Baghdad was damaged when it was hit by a rocket, police said.

About 90 minutes later, experts defused a bomb planted near al-Yemen school in al-Gazaliyah neighborhood in western Baghdad.

Insurgents also attacked the offices of two political parties in Baquba on Wednesday, triggering clashes that left an Iraqi police officer dead and four others wounded -- three of them working as guards for the parties, Baquba police said.

The insurgents used grenades and small arms fire to attack the Kurdish Democratic Party office and the office of the Iraqi Patriotic Gathering Alliance about 6:30 a.m. (10:30 p.m. Tuesday ET), police said, and the resulting battles lasted two hours.

In al-Nahrawan, a southeastern suburb of Baghdad, city council leader Karim Sarhan was gunned down Wednesday morning in a drive-by shooting on his way to work, Iraqi police said.

Three government employees were shot and killed in attacks Tuesday, according to police.

Iraqis go to the polls Sunday, and U.S. and Iraqi officials have been warning that insurgents would ramp up their attacks in a bid to derail the vote.

On Tuesday, a high-ranking official in Iraq's Justice Ministry was gunned down in a drive-by shooting as he was leaving his home southeast of Baghdad, police said. A group calling itself the Army of Ansar al-Sunnah claimed responsibility for the attack on Judge Qais Hashim al-Shonmari, and warned of more attacks to come. Shonmari's son was also killed in the shooting.

....

[Ironsight 1]

Quote[/b] ]Iraq air crash kills 31 marines

Thirty-one marines have been killed in a helicopter crash in western Iraq, the US military has confirmed.

It is the single worst loss of life for US forces since they invaded Iraq in March 2003.

The aircraft, carrying troops from the 1st Marine Division, came down in bad weather near the Jordanian border, Pentagon sources told the BBC.

At least it wasn't caused by insurgents.

R.I.P. 31 marines

[ruff 102]

i reckon to fight terror u gotta use terror. u gotta make ur enemy sick of war and blood.

u.s. still uses minimal restraint . i reckon take no insurgency prisoners and kill everyone in the insurgency to freaken scare the crap out of them. kill the family members of the insurgency so that there is terror for terror. do what they did with pablo escobar!! insurgents, kill 4ppl, 1 insurgent captured 5 of his family members die right in front of him and then kill him.

terror for terror is the answer. those beheading make my blood boil.

So let me get this straight.. you want a war that would kill even more people and cause unprecedented economic damage because few people got beheaded?

well its working for the terrorists

look how much enlisting has dropped in the u.s

either the two main islamic groups join together and declare war on the insurgency

or u.s. will have to play loosely within the rules but loose aint enuff

and doesnt matter if its a few beheadings, i would rather die by a bullet than my throat cut like a steak with me knowing its coming blind folded. look at the prisoner abuses, its bad but at least theyre still alive. im not claiming some of them didnt dissappear but come on, at least they got a mercy from a bullet.

terrorist deserve to die!!! if they have the balls to attack theyre own religion kill innocent ppl everyday of most which half of them is not their country, i believe u have to pay the ultimate price.  i did go overboard with the kill his family members aswell. but if it could save lives by VALUABLE informatrion from the terrorists to save lives then so be it. i dont think anyone is willing to sacrifice their family members unless they are purely crazy. even people like pablo escobar and carlos the jackal had their soft spots.

[ruff 102]

31 killed in Marine chopper crash [CNN]

Quote[/b] ]

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A U.S. Marine Corps helicopter crashed early Wednesday in western Iraq killing 31 people, military officials said.

The chopper crashed near Ar Rutbah at about 1:20 a.m. local time (5:20 p.m. Tuesday ET). It was carrying personnel from the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing and the 1st Marine Division.

Military officials said a search and rescue team was at the site and an investigation of the crash was under way.

The crash came as insurgents targeted multinational troops, Iraqi security forces, government offices and polling places across the country.

Three car bombs within an hour killed five people and injured six others in Tamim province Wednesday, according to the police chief in Kirkuk.

The bombs exploded between 11 a.m. and noon (3 and 4 a.m. ET), said Maj. Gen. Torhan Abdul Rahman. The first was in the town of Riyadh, about 30 kilometers (19 miles) west of Kirkuk, and targeted a police station, he said. Three Iraqi police officers were killed and three civilians injured.

The second detonated outside the Riyadh mayor's office, killing two Iraqi soldiers. The third bomb exploded outside Riyadh and targeted a U.S. military convoy. Three other Iraqi civilians were wounded.

A U.S. soldier was killed Wednesday when insurgents attacked a combat patrol with grenades near Ad Duluiyah, military officials said.

The soldier, from the 1st Infantry Division, died and two others were wounded in the attack about 11:20 a.m. (3:20 a.m. ET). The injured were taken to a military hospital for treatment; one was in serious condition, while the other was in stable condition, authorities said.

Four multi-national soldiers were wounded Wednesday when a car bomb exploded near a convoy in southwestern Baghdad, along the road to the city's airport, a source with the U.S. Army's 1st Cavalry Division said.

The attack took place about 10 a.m. (2 a.m. ET) on the road, which has been one of the country's bloodiest locations in recent months. The nationalities of the wounded soldiers were not immediately known. U.S. troops sealed off the area after the explosion.

Three Baghdad schools to be used as polling centers in Sunday's election were attacked Tuesday night, an Iraqi police officer said. A bomb planted at a fourth school was defused.

About 8 p.m. (noon ET), Salah al-Deen school in northern Baghdad was damaged when insurgents threw a grenade at it, authorities said. Thirty minutes later, a bomb exploded near the main gate of Al-Fursan school in southeast Baghdad, causing damage, police said.

About 10:30 p.m. (2:30 p.m. ET), Al-Balquees school in northern Baghdad was damaged when it was hit by a rocket, police said.

About 90 minutes later, experts defused a bomb planted near al-Yemen school in al-Gazaliyah neighborhood in western Baghdad.

Insurgents also attacked the offices of two political parties in Baquba on Wednesday, triggering clashes that left an Iraqi police officer dead and four others wounded -- three of them working as guards for the parties, Baquba police said.

The insurgents used grenades and small arms fire to attack the Kurdish Democratic Party office and the office of the Iraqi Patriotic Gathering Alliance about 6:30 a.m. (10:30 p.m. Tuesday ET), police said, and the resulting battles lasted two hours.

In al-Nahrawan, a southeastern suburb of Baghdad, city council leader Karim Sarhan was gunned down Wednesday morning in a drive-by shooting on his way to work, Iraqi police said.

Three government employees were shot and killed in attacks Tuesday, according to police.

Iraqis go to the polls Sunday, and U.S. and Iraqi officials have been warning that insurgents would ramp up their attacks in a bid to derail the vote.

On Tuesday, a high-ranking official in Iraq's Justice Ministry was gunned down in a drive-by shooting as he was leaving his home southeast of Baghdad, police said. A group calling itself the Army of Ansar al-Sunnah claimed responsibility for the attack on Judge Qais Hashim al-Shonmari, and warned of more attacks to come. Shonmari's son was also killed in the shooting.

....

man, thats alot of people

i wonder if rumsfeld can still say "the sky isn't falling"

[kerosene 0]

I think if security forces or the police operate in that manner, and it vbecomes standard practice, you shouldnt be suprised when petty criminals get murdered or innocent people get killed by the police.  

Iraq shouldnt be modelled on latin america in the 80's, if you start kidnapping and murdering innocent people to extract information from the guilty... its a slippery slope.

Also, didnt U.S forces openly admit at the start of the occupation that they were detaining relatives when they couldnt arrest certain people.  And if everybody in Abu-Gharib was a terrorist, how come groups of them could be relaesed en masse after the abuse came to light, they wouldnt have been let out otherwise.  So either large numbers of terrorists were let out, or the U.S was holding people that it had little too no evidence on.

Looks like there way ahead of you anyway:

Quote[/b] ]

Iraqis abusing detainees, says report

Richard Norton-Taylor

Tuesday January 25, 2005

The Guardian

Iraqi security forces are committing systematic torture and ill-treatment of detainees who are denied access to their families, lawyers and healthcare, a leading human rights group says today.

Unlawful arrest, detention, torture, being held incommunicado long term and other ill-treatment of detainees by Iraqi authorities have become commonplace, says the New York-based group Human Rights Watch.

Its 93-page report, The New Iraq? Torture and Ill-treatment of Detainees in Iraqi Custody, is published today. Its staff conducted interviews in Iraq with 90 detainees, 72 of whom alleged they had been tortured or ill-treated.

It recognises that insurgents have mounted a violent campaign aimed at Iraqi police and security forces. But this did not justify abuses committed by Iraqi authorities, who are bound by their obligations to international law, Human Rights Watch says.

"The people of Iraq were promised something better than this after the government of Saddam Hussein fell," said Sarah Leah Whitson, executive director of Human Rights Watch's Middle East and north Africa division.

"The Iraqi interim government is not keeping its promises to honour and respect basic human rights. Sadly, the Iraqi people continue to suffer from a government that acts with impunity in its treatment of detainees," she said.

Torture methods mentioned by detainees include routine beatings to the body using cables, hosepipes and other implements, the report says.

Detainees also referred to kicking, slapping and punching, prolonged suspension from the wrists with hands tied behind the back, electric shocks to sensitive parts of the body, and being kept blindfolded and/or handcuffed continuously for several days.

The report gives details of widespread human rights violations since 2003, against both alleged insurgents and common criminals. It says Iraq's national intelligence service has committed serious violations since mid-2004, principally against members of political parties deemed to constitute a threat to state security.

The report does not address the treatment of the estimated 8,500 "security detainees" held by the US or those detained by British troops. However, it says international police advisers, mainly US citizens funded by Washington, have turned a blind eye to "rampant abuses".

Human Rights Watch examined cases involving suspected members or sympathisers of Shia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army arrested last year. Several members of a political party, Hizbullah, were arrested at the same time.

The report says Iraqi security forces arrested people unlawfully and tortured them before releasing them without charge.

"They poured cold water over me and applied electric shocks to my genitals. I was also beaten by several people with cables on my arms and back," said a 21-year-old man arrested in July 2004 and accused of links with the Mahdi Army.

A detainee arrested on charges of possession of drugs said: "During the first three days there was continuous torture. I was beaten with an aluminum rod and with cables".

The Iraqi embassy in London was not available for comment.

[ruff 102]

well i didnt mean to say everyone caught is guilty. every prison has an innocent person. i just believe terrorists should get the whole nine yards. and most terrorists cant be proven guilty or tried by court due to laws, of course which some is broken or else no one would be punished.

well i found this interesting article

http://www.navyseals.com/community/articles/article.cfm?id=5614

[python3 0]

well without the US becoming a terrorist state by killing innocent people on purpose, the only real way to defeat the insurgency is to get support from the "liberated" Iraqi's. If they are not on board then this war was doomed to begin with. Some must understand that democracy is not what everyone wants. If the religious parties in Iraq win the "election", the country will look a lot less like a western democracy and more like an islamic state, which most Iraqi's according to a poll posted here actually want.