The Iraq thread 4

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]I slighlty disagree. I would say that there are so many Muslims speaking out against the bloody campaign of many other Muslims.

Hi Avon!

If the tape is authentic I'd say it proves my point - but more importantly, that the religious clerics have chosen it's own understanding of the Quran, which again differs from the madmen. Allthough this doesn't guarantee a "peace in our time" it certainly rocks the madmens legitimacy as being on a "religious mission" from God or whatever.

In Norwegian we have a saying: Those who keeps silent agrees! There you go then  

[Blackden 0]

How many miilions and millions humans are dead because guys want absolutly see their religion as the best.

Religion is the worth thing in the world. U can see why in this thread.

Do something against the pollution US, its more important than to know who have the best "religion".

[Placebo 29]

Avon don't reply 3 times in a row just to add one line please, edit your first post instead.

[theavonlady 2]

Avon

Yes?

Quote[/b] ]don't reply 3 times in a row just to add one line please

OK. Anything you say.

Quote[/b] ]edit your first post instead.

Done!

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]How many miilions and millions humans are dead because guys want absolutly see their religion as the best.

It has nothing or very little to do with religion! Religion means a lot to many people, and mostly good I hope.

If you want to you could have a second look at your quote and insert self interest instead!

Quote[/b] ]Religion is the worth thing in the world. U can see why in this thread.

Religion is not the worst thing in the world. Nor because of this thread  

What people do is the worst and sometimes they would like try and make it legitimate it with use/misuse of religion. It's only about giving reasons for what one wants to do. Hitler used religion as it pleased him because it made his claims legitimate in people's view! Stalin didn't - but one can in a superficial way say he had a "religious" affection towards communism and power. So, maybe we should stop blaming religion and adress guilt where it should have been in the first place: people with ruthless self interest and a sincerety towards using their means available - religion or not!

Quote[/b] ]Do something against the pollution US, its more important than to know who have the best "religion".

None fights about having the best - but perhaps having the only! The pollutin thing is something I agree with but it belonges in another thread  

[theavonlady 2]

It has nothing or very little to do with religion!

Al Qaeda has nothing to do with religion.

Zarqawi has nothing to do with religion.

Beheadings have nothing to do with religion.

Madrid had nothing to do with religion.

9/11 had nothing to do with religion.

Van Gogh had nothing to do with religion.

Chechnya has nothing to do with religion.

Israel has nothing to do with religion.

Bali had nothing to do with religion.

Indonesia has nothing to do with religion.

Bosnia has nothing to do with religion.

Nigeria has nothing to do with religion.

Eyes wide shut!

[Baphomet 0]

I think what he's saying is, there's a line between the common conception of religion and when these beliefs are contorted to serve one's own... skewed perspective of reality.

At which point I think it's legitimate to contend that at that point we're not speaking so much about each religion in a concrete sense, but a manipulation of it to form some kind of twisted personal dogma that acts as an enabler for people to do things of questionable morality.

In my opinion Bush is doing the same damn thing. That's not religion to me, that's something else entirely.

[brgnorway 0]

It has nothing or very little to do with religion!

Al Qaeda has nothing to do with religion.

Zarqawi has nothing to do with religion.

Beheadings have nothing to do with religion.

Madrid had nothing to do with religion.

9/11 had nothing to do with religion.

Van Gogh had nothing to do with religion.

Chechnya has nothing to do with religion.

Israel has nothing to do with religion.

Bali had nothing to do with religion.

Indonesia has nothing to do with religion.

Bosnia has nothing to do with religion.

Nigeria has nothing to do with religion.

Eyes wide shut!

On the contrary, it has strictly speaking nothing to do with religion per se! It has all to to with the use of religion as an organising principle. Religion doesn't programme people into suicide bombers, plane hijackers, nation invaders etc.

It's only an organising principle. Why don't you take a look at all the wrongdoings of the 70'ies middle African tyrannies/states to see what went wrong! There you would find "communism" as the central ideological organising principle, allthough one can succesfully argue it had nothing to do with communism but very much to do with corrupt centralism. You wont find any muslim states in central africa as it's the dividing matriarcal belt of africa. Mind you, if it had been I suppose Islam would be a much better excuse and organising principle for all the central african states than communism.

Despite ethnic differenses like in the middle east people still have one organizing principle where they can say to eachother: "we resemble eachother despite variety" - and that is Islam!

[xawery 0]

I've been following the recent developments in this thread for quite some time, and I've noticed that people fail to make a distiniction between two very different concepts: faith and religion. Faith is a personal belief in something, be it God, Grand Architect of the Universe or what have you. Religion is the institutionalisation of faith, the very organising of people Bgnorway spoke of. This, in my eyes, is the source of all evil in the world.

Let me put it this way - anything that employs dogma's is wrong by definition. Period. Faith=good. Religion=bad. Ideology=bad. Anything that claims to offer ready-made solution and disencourages individual thinking is evil. And yes, I use the word evil while being fully aware of its pregnancy. I am not one to use such words lightly (unlike certain statesmen, cough cough).

[Gordy 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Marine sacrifices his life for others in grenade blast

By Gordon Trowbridge

The Army Times

FALLUJAH, Iraq — Sgt. Rafael Peralta built a reputation as a man who always put his Marines' interests ahead of his own.

He showed that again, when he made the ultimate sacrifice of his life Tuesday, by shielding his fellow Marines from a grenade blast.

"It's stuff you hear about in boot camp, about World War II and Tarawa Marines who won the Medal of Honor," said Lance Cpl. Rob Rogers, 22, of Tallahassee, Fla., one of Peralta's platoon mates in 1st Platoon, Alpha Company, 1st Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment.

Peralta, 25, as platoon scout, wasn't even assigned to the assault team that entered the insurgent safe house in northern Fallujah, Marines said. Despite an assignment that would have allowed him to avoid such dangerous duty, he regularly asked squad leaders if he could join their assault teams, they said.

One of the first Marines to enter the house, Peralta was wounded in the face by rifle fire from a room near the entry door, said Lance Cpl. Adam Morrison, 20, of Tacoma, who was in the house when Peralta was first wounded.

Moments later, an insurgent rolled a fragmentation grenade into the area where a wounded Peralta and the other Marines were seeking cover.

As Morrison and another Marine scrambled to escape the blast, pounding against a locked door, Peralta grabbed the grenade and cradled it into his body, Morrison said. While one Marine was badly wounded by shrapnel from the blast, the Marines said they believe more lives would have been lost if not for Peralta's selfless act.

"He saved half my fire team," said Cpl. Brannon Dyer, 27, of Blairsville, Ga.

The Marines said such a sacrifice would be perfectly in character for Peralta, a Mexico native who lived in San Diego and gained U.S. citizenship after joining the Marines.

"He'd stand up for his Marines to an insane point," Rogers said.

Rogers and others remembered Peralta as a squared-away Marine, so meticulous about uniform standards that he sent his camouflage uniform to be pressed while training in Kuwait before entering Iraq.

But mostly they remembered acts of selflessness: offering career advice, giving a buddy a ride home from the bar, teaching salsa dance steps in the barracks.

While Alpha Company was still gathering information, and a formal finding on Peralta's death is likely months away, not a single Marine in Alpha Company doubted the account of Peralta's act of sacrifice.

"I believe it," said Alpha's commander, Capt. Lee Johnson. "He was that kind of Marine."

[billybob2002 0]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041124/D86I8Q7O0.html

Quote[/b] ]

Great-Grandmother Being Deployed to Iraq

Email this Story

Nov 24, 8:30 AM (ET)

LAWTON, Okla. (AP) - A 72-year-old great-grandmother is preparing for deployment to the war zone in Iraq and will become one of the oldest Department of Defense civilian workers in the war zone.

"I volunteered," said Lena Haddix of Lawton, who has five children, eight grandchildren and three great-grandchildren. "I wanted to do something for the country, because I was always left behind taking care of the children."

Haddix was a military wife from 1950 until 1979, and has worked at the Fort Sill Post Exchange, or PX, since 1977.

"I've been a supervisor of every department out there," Haddix said. "I guess I'm the flunky."

The PX is more than just a store for soldiers, she said. It's also a boost to morale, giving soldiers stationed overseas a link to the United States and Haddix said that's why she wants to go to Iraq.

"I just see so many of the boys. They're like little kids. They keep telling me, 'I'm going over,' or 'I've just come back,'" she said.

"I would just like to go over and be with them."

And Haddix said others have tried to talk her out of her decision, to no avail.

"I'd already made up my mind I wanted to go. I just wanted to do something for myself and other people instead of working and coming home.

"I'm sure there'll be times that I'll be scared, but I'm not now."

Haddix is now going through much of the same process soldiers go through before deployment, including shots and a thorough medical checkup to make sure she's physically able to do a tour of at least six months.

She will be sent to Fort Bliss, Texas, for one week of training, then be sent to Germany where she will receive her orders on where in Iraq she will be stationed.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]

Great-Grandmother Being Deployed to Iraq

Must be the same lady and they commuted her prison sentence to community service instead.

Quote[/b] ]Pistol-packing grandma, 79, arrested at Florida airport

Tue Nov 23, 5:22 PM ET AFP

MIAMI (AFP) - A grandmother, 79, was arrested allegedly trying to enter an airport with a pistol hidden in what looked like a book, police said.

Margaret Anderson tried to pass Fort Lauderdale airport X-ray security with a .22-caliber handgun, the Broward County Sheriff's office said in a statement.

"The scanner screen revealed a small handgun inside the woman's luggage.

"Inside the tote bag deputies found a gun case, designed and manufactured to resemble a hardbound book, containing a single-shot Colt derringer.

"The gun was unloaded but seven .22-caliber bullets were in the case next to the weapon," the report said.

Anderson said she knew the case contained a pistol, but had forgotten that it was in her tote bag, according to the sheriff.

The arrest cut short her planned trip to the Bahamas.

She was freed on 1,000 dollars' bail, but faces charges that could bring a maximum of five years in prison, the sheriff said.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Great-Grandmother Being Deployed to Iraq

Must be the same lady and they commuted her prison sentence to community service instead.

Quote[/b] ]Pistol-packing grandma, 79, arrested at Florida airport

Tue Nov 23, 5:22 PM ET AFP

MIAMI (AFP) - A grandmother, 79, was arrested allegedly trying to enter an airport with a pistol hidden in what looked like a book, police said.

Margaret Anderson tried to pass Fort Lauderdale airport X-ray security with a .22-caliber handgun, the Broward County Sheriff's office said in a statement.

"The scanner screen revealed a small handgun inside the woman's luggage.

"Inside the tote bag deputies found a gun case, designed and manufactured to resemble a hardbound book, containing a single-shot Colt derringer.

"The gun was unloaded but seven .22-caliber bullets were in the case next to the weapon," the report said.

Anderson said she knew the case contained a pistol, but had forgotten that it was in her tote bag, according to the sheriff.

The arrest cut short her planned trip to the Bahamas.

She was freed on 1,000 dollars' bail, but faces charges that could bring a maximum of five years in prison, the sheriff said.

Old people should be drafted in to the military...think about the future...

[theavonlady 2]

Old people should be drafted in to the military...think about the future...

Define "old".

[Baphomet 0]

Random thought. There's absolutely -no- way I'd do any fighting of any sort if I wasn't able to wear one of those 2 inch thick ballistic face shields I've seen the spetz natz wear sometimes. Even if I had to pay for it out of my own pocket if I was a soldier. I simply wouldn't be caught without one if I had anything whatsoever to say or do about it. Ego simply wouldn't prevent me from being legitimately concerned about being hit in such a vulnerable spot. Speaking of which. That's another thing. I'd definitely want some kind of custom made cup for mobility and protection... dammit. Fighting for my country wouldn't mean squat if I had my junk blown off. Selfish as it sounds.

Getting shot in the face and living to me would be as bad as dying. Perhaps worse. There's something dehumanizing about being facially disfigured unfortunately. I feel bad for people who have to live with it. In hindsight I can't imagine these people wouldn't even secretly question the events that led to them being disfigured and wonder if it was worth it or avoidable. Despite whatever mitigatory statements they might make about it's effects on them psychologically. You can't help being human.

I'm pretty sure that if I had a choice between wearing excessive amounts of body protection or not. I'd opt for the body protection even if it meant sacrifices or fatigue. It might not stop an AK round, but dammit. Better safe than sorry.

face saver

anywhere but the face

don't leave home without it

[theavonlady 2]

Getting shot in the face and living to me would be as bad as dying. Perhaps worse.

While this is often true, it's miraculous what I've seen done here as far as cosmetic surgery goes on severely disfigured terror victims I work with.

It will never be the same for them but it will never be like the day they regained consciousness either.

However, I would think that wearing such heavy and possibly visibility limiting equipment might pose other life-threatening risks on the battlefield that are even worse.

[billybob2002 0]

Old people should be drafted in to the military...think about the future...

Define "old".

The ones that are going to fudge up the system very soon... Hey, it solves two things: manpower problem and stopping them from bankrupting the government.

Anyway,

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...._saddam

Quote[/b] ]

Red Cross Visits Saddam Again

51 minutes ago

By ALEXANDER G. HIGGINS, Associated Press Writer

GENEVA - The international Red Cross has visited Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) again to check on his condition in detention, a spokesman said Wednesday.

Muin Kassis, spokesman for the International Committee of the Red Cross in Amman, Jordan, said the visit "took place recently in the detention place of the former president of Iraq (news - web sites)."

"A team of ICRC delegates spent some time with the former president, and they were able to talk to him in private, which meets one of the requirements of ICRC's visits to prisoners and persons deprived of their freedom anywhere in the world," Kassis told The Associated Press by telephone.

He said he was unable to disclose details of the conversation, but that "usually during such visits the ICRC delegates would inquire about the general detention conditions and they would listen to the prisoner."

"Should they have any remark relating to the health condition or the detention conditions and treatment they would discuss it directly with the detaining authorities," Kassis added.

He said he didn't know whether Saddam sent his family any messages this time, but that ICRC remains in contact with his family.

The visit was the latest in a series that the ICRC has been making to the former Iraqi president since he was captured by U.S. forces last December and imprisoned in an undisclosed location.

The ICRC team, which usually includes a doctor, has been seeing Saddam every six to eight weeks in a prison in Iraq, where it also visits other "high-value detainees." The last confirmed visit by the organization was in early October.

The ICRC refuses to disclose details of his health or circumstances, but it has carried letters from him to his family.

Saddam underwent surgery to repair a hernia at the end of September or in early October and made a full recovery, a U.S. official said last month.

The U.S. military official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said Saddam's health was good with no major ailments.

In July, the Guardian newspaper in Britain and Newsday in New York quoted Iraq's human rights minister, Bakhtiar Amin, as saying Saddam was being treated for high blood pressure and a chronic prostate infection and was suffering from a hernia.

Saddam is believed to be held in an American-guarded facility near Baghdad International Airport.

He appeared in court in July for a preliminary hearing into charges of alleged crimes committed during his rule.

[Baphomet 0]

Fair enough, if you get shot in the face with something powerful. Even if you aren't disfigured or you're not dead. You're not going to be in any condition to fight back immediately. So you may as well be dead if your enemy shoots you enough times. However. Better dead than disfigured in my opinion.

An american soldier got in trouble in an incident similar to that in Iraq. They fired on a car which had insurgents in it and when they approached it, the driver I believe was heavily wounded but still alive... miraculously enough. Half his head was missing apparently and the soldier. Put him out of his misery. In that context. I think that was the humane thing to do.

In MOUT operations I could see it being most useful. Glare from face shields would make utilizing optics or goggles difficult and or impossible I would surmise.

[theavonlady 2]

Better dead than disfigured in my opinion.

I wish you could come here and see how such people are not pathetic shadows of their previous selves.

And you might as well never drive or use fire or quite a few other activities where accidents can disfigure you as well.

Basically, go for life in a bubble.

[Baphomet 0]

Well. Life as we know it. Has ever present risks. I myself have made some pretty risky decisions

However it's all about calculated risk. I just see a place as volatile as Iraq or any similar combat situation as leaving far too much up to chance. To me, the extra security would be an investment that might pay off right when it's needed most.

I'm not saying anything about people in general who've suffered disfigurement from war or what have you. Personally I think those people in the end have a lot of courage to keep going in the face of such adversity. Personally. I'd rather kick off than go on like that. So they'd be possessing more inner fortitude than me for it, in that respect.

[Pathy 0]

I know just how you feel Baph, only my own worry would be limbs.....i cant imagine anything worse for those British Soldiers who got their legs blown off by a suicide bomber....one day your as fit and mobile as you could ever be, the next, you cant even stand anymore  

[brgnorway 0]

So, did the iraq thread merge into a body armour thread all of a sudden!

[whisperFFW06 0]

@Avon :

How few is a few? Can you quantify the number of Muslims worldwide that support/not support Islamic Jihadism, even passively?

First of all, this remark : why adding "even passively"? Do you imply that muslims not shouting against Jihad are then promoting violent islam? oO

Now more on topic : do you think original interpretations of Bible were, from the beginning, about peacefull relations? Or have there been changes in, let's take catholic behavior, making it a more peacefull religion?

There has been changes. Some people were crying against them, stating they were against catholic religion, that the moderate catholics were not true catholics.

You're doing the same : you're saying moderate muslims do not follow their original laws, they are not true muslims.

You deny them any chance to change (cause otherwise, "they are not muslims anymore").

And indeed, many, many (vast majority) of them are seeking a peacefull islam. Why saying they are not muslim anymore? Do you think it will bring us any closer to a solution of current issues? Strange line of thinking.

[theavonlady 2]

@Avon :

How few is a few? Can you quantify the number of Muslims worldwide that support/not support Islamic Jihadism, even passively?

First of all, this remark : why adding "even passively"? Do you imply that muslims not shouting against Jihad are then promoting violent islam? oO

No. If you'll looking again, I mentioned both sides of the coin: "support/not support". You're now assuming as if I only said "support".

Quote[/b] ]Now more on topic : do you think original interpretations of Bible were, from the beginning, about peacefull relations? Or have there been changes in, let's take catholic behavior, making it a more peacefull religion?

There has been changes. Some people were crying against them, stating they were against catholic religion, that the moderate catholics were not true catholics.

You're doing the same : you're saying moderate muslims do not follow their original laws, they are not true muslims.

Wrong again. I'm not saying anything other than repeating what Jihadist Muslims are saying. Again, read my words and the sources I quote.

Quote[/b] ]You deny them any chance to change (cause otherwise, "they are not muslims anymore").

And indeed, many, many (vast majority) of them are seeking a peacefull islam. Why saying they are not muslim anymore? Do you think it will bring us any closer to a solution of current issues? Strange line of thinking.

Again, read carefully. I do not determine what constitutes a "true" Muslim. Then again, neither do you.

[whisperFFW06 0]

Then I don't see what you're trying to prove (or simply, say?)