The Iraq thread 4

[shinRaiden 0]

Reuters

Quote[/b] ]

A body found in the Iraqi city of Falluja appears to be that of kidnapped British aid worker Margaret Hassan, Australian Prime Minister John Howard said on Thursday. "The body found in Falluja appears to have been Margaret's and the video of the execution of a Western woman appears on all the available information to have been genuine," Howard told parliament Thursday.

Howard did not elaborate and a spokesman for his office also said he had nothing to add.

Hassan was kidnapped on Oct. 19 as she was being driven to work in Baghdad, where she worked as director of the Australian operation of aid organization Care International. It has never been clear who seized Hassan or where she was held.

A video released to Arabic news channel Al Jazeera last week showed a hooded figure shooting a blindfolded woman in the head. Hassan's family, who said Tuesday she was probably dead, have appealed to the kidnappers to reveal the location of her body.

An excellent obit is here.

Quote[/b] ]

Margaret Hassan, who has been murdered aged 59, devoted more than 30 years of her life to helping the disadvantaged people of Iraq.

For the past 12 years she had been Care International's country director for Iraq, refusing to leave when many other aid agencies fled as a result of the war. Care's offices were surrounded by sandbags and she gave her 60-strong staff bicycles so they could get about more easily in the event of an attack. Last November the premises were struck by a grenade, and threatening letters arrived. Expatriate staff left the country, but Margaret Hassan, who saw herself as an Iraqi, remained.

Care International is the largest humanitarian charity in the world; that it is also American cannot have counted in Margaret Hassan's favour. In Iraq it concentrated on supplying medical facilities, clean water, food, blankets and generators to communities devastated by years of sanctions and violence.

During the airstrikes, Care technicians would go around Baghdad restoring power supplies to hospitals, converting lorries into emergency water tankers and repairing buildings.

Margaret Hassan was a familiar and immensely popular figure on the streets of Baghdad. Felicity Arbuthnot, who filmed a documentary about her work, has described Margaret Hassan being mobbed during a visit to a water sanitation plant. "A crowd gathered and tiny children rushed up and threw their arms round her knees, saying, `Madam Margaret, Madam Margaret', and everywhere she went, people just beamed."

Although no Western woman had previously been kidnapped in Iraq, Margaret Hassan was aware of the risks she ran, conscious that many Iraqi women had been abducted, ransomed, raped and murdered by the Baghdad mafia.

On October 19, as she was leaving home for work in the Khadra district of western Baghdad, she was seized by unknown gunmen. Hours after her capture, the first in a series of harrowing videos was released on the Arab television station al-Jazeera. It showed her pleading: "I beg of you, the British people, to help me. I don't wan't to die like [Kenneth] Bigley." A second video showed her calling on Tony Blair to withdraw troops from Iraq and "not bring them to Baghdad".

Another had her pleading for her life before fainting and then having a bucket of water poured over her. She was then filmed wet and helpless on the floor before getting up and crying.

Margaret Hassan was born Margaret Fitzsimons in Dublin shortly before VE Day in 1944. She grew up at Dalkey, just outside Dublin, until her early teens, when the family moved to London, whereupon she acquired a British passport to add to her Irish one. Margaret went to a Roman Catholic girls' school and then did a two-year diploma in social work at Leicester University. During the late 1960s she was a youth and community worker in inner-city areas of London for organisations including the Catholic Youth Service Council.

She met her future husband Tahseen Ali Hassan while he was studying Engineering in London and shortly after they married in 1972 the couple moved to Iraq. There she got a job at the British Council, teaching English and eventually becoming director of the Baghdad office. Devoted to her adopted country and its people, she converted to Islam, learnt fluent Arabic and took Iraqi citizenship.

After Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1990, the British Council closed its office in Baghdad. Though now without a job, Margaret Hassan stayed on in Iraq and in 1991, after the first Gulf War, she was appointed to the job at Care International.

Under Care's rules she was forbidden from talking about politics, but she nonetheless became a vehement campaigner against the United Nations sanctions, which she held responsible for the fact that ordinary Iraqis had to make do with shortages of food, medical provisions and adequate sanitation. "This is a man-made disaster," she said in 1998.

In the build-up to the American-led invasion last year, she travelled to the UN security council in New York and the House of Commons in London to campaign against the war. "The Iraqi people are already living through a terrible emergency," she said. "They do not have the resources to withstand an additional crisis brought about by military action."

As Care began stockpiling fuel, food and medical supplies in readiness for war, she said: "We will do what we can, but we do not expect to work miracles here."

She is survived by her husband.

- edit -

Clarification by PM John Howard

Quote[/b] ]

PRIME Minister John Howard today backed away from his apparent confirmation that the body of murdered CARE International aid worker Margaret Hassan had been discovered in Iraq.

In a short speech to federal parliament to convey his abhorrence of the murder, Mr Howard said: "Her family and the British and Irish governments have concluded that she's dead.

"The body found in Fallujah appears to have been Margaret's and the video of the execution of the Western woman appears, on all the available information, to have been genuine."

But when later questioned about what confirmation he had received, Mr Howard said no body had been returned to authorities.

"Certainly the video in relation to Margaret Hassan sadly, according to those who have seen it, does appear to be her," he said.

"The body has not been returned by those who killed her.

"The point I'm making was that it's accepted by the British Government, the Irish Government and the family, particularly the husband who made a very emotional appeal for the return of the body."

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I love this desaster-discussion

[whisperFFW06 0]

We are the "good guys", but to win a war, you can not act like the "good guys".

You speak exactly like a terrorist.

These people are terrorist, nothing more than animals. They have no compassion at all. They are full of hate for America, like it or not this is a FACT, not just my stupid opinion. These people would kill any American in a second, and anybody who might seem to support the War in Iraq. So when I heard about this I felt no compassion or sorrow for the terrorist. I probably should have, but these people have done way to much, way way to much to us. I don't want to bring freedom to the terrorist, just death.  

Many of these so called terrorist were Iraqi civilians some days/weeks/months ago. They became "insurgents", you label them as "terrorists" and deny their humanity. Once more, you're talking like a true terrorist.

You know, (I gonna say something truely horrible, but it is to really underline the argument), probably, some of the guys in the 9/11 planes was saying "I'm not 'them', but personnaly, I better be dead than living under such a corrupted government!".

There have been many, many wars in the past. After having seen the horrible effects they have on civilians, and also on soldiers, rules have been edicted. Like Geneva convention. They are not there to make things clean or give automatic bless on one's army actions, but they are their for everyone to comply to them. Once you begin to think "screw that, my ennemy don't respect them, I won't", you're just acting exactly like your ennemy.

The issue is not that a soldier made the wrong decision and did something again these rules. Mistakes happen, and sometimes, you react to extreme conditions.

The issue is that people in his society begin to find this normal and don't take any action against him. This is not a normal and right decision in war and should be punished.

If you condone this, you approve this. You're "forming terrorists".

[brgnorway 0]

When I see statements from people like Duke of Ray I feel uncomfortable and a little bit scared. War crimes is nothing new unfortunately, but as Amnesty says the real danger for this to happen is when the soldiers are "demonizing" the opposition. It's much simpler to commit horrible crimes toward an enemy removed of humanity.

So when you have statements like this you really ought to think twice:

Quote[/b] ]These people are terrorist, nothing more than animals. They have no compassion at all.

these guys we are fighting are not soldiers.

the enemy has a name and it's satan (or something like that)

[bn880 5]

Its pretty safe to say, the way they train these kids for war in the US does effectively make the soldiers as pliable as any WW2 SS man. Ready to believe and act on anything their CO's say, especially if the totally impossible happens; the enemy actually kills one of them. Who would have thought soldiers are there to kill AND be killed.

I've seen these little pep rallies the soldiers get before the missions, makes you wonder what the IQ of those soldiers is. What goes through their heads; the DEVILS men!! oooo the evil doers who did 911 to us! they must dieeee...! They hate our freedom, they hold everyone hostage, the friggin terrists...

Yeah, somewhere near 95 IQ I'd say, and to be older and more experienced like some marines etc, and ot believe that, you have to be an utter moron.

[Acecombat 0]

Where in the US army are all the old folks the veterans the 30's and 40's aged men? All i see on tv are 20 and some under 20 kids ?

What is this the underage army or something?

Anyone seen the new TIMES issue lately i am talking about the Asian issue it has a pretty good report on fallujah and stuff.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Its pretty safe to say, the way they train these kids for war in the US does effectively make the soldiers as pliable as any WW2 SS man.  

Especially if every man (e.g. in Faludjia) is considered a potential terorist and therefore an animal neither deserving mercy nor to be left alive

This emotional stage shows that the war has already failed.

[billybob2002 0]

Some French people have been killed....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4023021.stm

Quote[/b] ]

French insurgents killed in Iraq

Three Frenchmen have died fighting with insurgents against US-led troops in Iraq, reports say.

The men, all of Arab origin, were killed in the country over recent months as the insurgency has flared.

Two of the men were aged 19 and the third was 24 years old, a French official said.

Authorities estimate that around a dozen Frenchmen of north African or Arab background have travelled to Iraq to join the insurgency.

[whisperFFW06 0]

Old news, heard about it last week. Sad, imo. Showing indoctrination is strong in some suburbs.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Old news, heard about it last week. Sad, imo. Showing indoctrination is strong in some suburbs.

Erm.. BBC just posted today. WOW! BBC is slow.

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]Where in the US army are all the old folks the veterans the 30's and 40's aged men? All i see on tv are 20 and some under 20 kids ?

What is this the underage army or something?

The average age of an infantry man has and always will be in the low 20's. If you are a 40 year old PFC you got problems.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]Where in the US army are all the old folks the veterans the 30's and 40's aged men? All i see on tv are 20 and some under 20 kids ?  

What is this the underage army or something?

    The average age of an infantry man has and always will be in the low 20's. If you are a 40 year old PFC you got problems.

I am talking Sergeants and stuff here not the guy at the bottom , plenty of the men fighting are 20 or 25 thats it i have yet to see someone above that get in the news , and dont tell me as soon as they strike 30 or soemthing they get a deskjob

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

billybob2002- "Erm.. BBC just posted today. WOW! BBC is slow."

All those men died months ago, i dont know why it wasnt reported earlier however.

Quote[/b] ]24-year-old Tarek W, from Paris, killed on 17 September

19-year-old Redouane el-Hakim, killed on 17 July

Abdel Halim Badjoudj, 19, killed on 20 October.

whisperFFW06-"Sad, imo. Showing indoctrination is strong in some suburbs."

Indoctrination into what though? They no doubt saw it as a show of pan islamic unity in which case they knew why they were fighting there (what they would percieve as a foreign invasion). Which im sad to say is more than some coalition troops can be sure of...

I would hesitate however in comparing US forces with the SS. (though i have to admit im seeing it more and more as a question of degrees... )

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Hey welcome back to the debate Duke_of_Ray. I regard your posts as akin to pure gold dust. I cannot help but chuckle at such gleaming elucidations as:

Quote[/b] ]Yes, I do care more about our soldiers, but I also care about the civilians. I am talking about the terrorist, the people we are fighting. Everyone of them is a terrorist. I hate to say it, but the only way to beat them is to kill them.

Quote[/b] ]We are the "good guys", but to win a war, you can not act like the "good guys".

Thats right Osama.

Quote[/b] ]Why I support this war is because we are able to fight many of the terrorist from aroud the war in one place

This is such a classic excuse for supporting the Iraq war, im thinking of framing it and putting it by my bed.

Quote[/b] ]These people are terrorist, nothing more than animals. They have no compassion at all. They are full of hate for America, like it or not this is a FACT, not just my stupid opinion. These people would kill any American in a second, and anybody who might seem to support the War in Iraq.

They have no compassion and because of this they must be excuted without mercy. Yes i see.

Quote[/b] ]Know, the people being shot are terrorist. Insurgents!

I would like to know how you 'know', if you know what i mean.

Quote[/b] ]As far as the dead civilians, I hate it as much as you, but to me I had rather be dead than live under somebody like Saddam

No doubt you would and i know youre probably right here, but its just, its kind of hard convincing people in general that theyre better off dead. I know its strange.

(Im sorry, i couldnt resist.)

LOL

Quote[/b] ]Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Nov. 18 2004,00:42)

We are the "good guys", but to win a war, you can not act like the "good guys".

You speak exactly like a terrorist.

Can't argue with you there, but if you can not see the difference you are even more ignorant than myself.

Quote[/b] ]Many of these so called terrorist were Iraqi civilians some days/weeks/months ago. They became "insurgents", you label them as "terrorists" and deny their humanity. Once more, you're talking like a true terrorist.

You know, (I gonna say something truely horrible, but it is to really underline the argument), probably, some of the guys in the 9/11 planes was saying "I'm not 'them', but personnaly, I better be dead than living under such a corrupted government!".

There have been many, many wars in the past. After having seen the horrible effects they have on civilians, and also on soldiers, rules have been edicted. Like Geneva convention. They are not there to make things clean or give automatic bless on one's army actions, but they are their for everyone to comply to them. Once you begin to think "screw that, my ennemy don't respect them, I won't", you're just acting exactly like your ennemy.

The issue is not that a soldier made the wrong decision and did something again these rules. Mistakes happen, and sometimes, you react to extreme conditions.

The issue is that people in his society begin to find this normal and don't take any action against him. This is not a normal and right decision in war and should be punished.

If you condone this, you approve this. You're "forming terrorists".

Any Iraqi civilian that took up arms against the U.S. is a terrorist in my book. They are not fighting for their homeland. They are fighting the U.S. because of their hate for the U.S.. This comes from many things, our support for Israel, and that we are their number one obstacle to fighting freedom everywhere.

As for the soldeir, if it was a mistake he should not get in any trouble at all. If he did kill the guy just to kill him, then still I see no reason why he should get in trouble. Maybe it is just too hard for you to admit how the world has changed these last few years, and that this enemy is not the smae as any before.

It seems America is almost alone in being willing to fight terrorism. I do have to say thanks to England, Poland, and every country tht truly did help us out. Thank you.

Man, I have got that song Picture Book stuck in my head! AHHHHHH!!!!

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]It seems America is almost alone in being willing to fight terrorism.

How exactly is Iraq part on the war on terror? Was Iraq supporting terrorists or something?

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Duke_of_Ray-

Quote[/b] ]Quote Duke_of_Ray-

We are the "good guys", but to win a war, you can not act like the "good guys".

You speak exactly like a terrorist.

Can't argue with you there, but if you can not see the difference you are even more ignorant than myself.

Im sorry, im still confused. Is it that the good guy is you and anyone like you (or any american?) who talks in that manner and a terrorist is anyone who talks like that but isnt you?

Duke_of_Ray-

Quote[/b] ]Any Iraqi civilian that took up arms against the U.S. is a terrorist in my book. They are not fighting for their homeland. They are fighting the U.S. because of their hate for the U.S.. This comes from many things, our support for Israel, and that we are their number one obstacle to fighting freedom everywhere.

If they are fighting solely because of their unquenchable hatred for america and US support for Israel then why has this remarkable problem of Iraqi civilians attacking and taking up arms against US troops only arisen after the coalition invasion of said Iraqi homeland? Why didnt Iraqi Fallujan civilians stream out into all the neighbouring coutries long before this to attack and destroy all signs of America and western civilisation? Perhaps Saddam Hussein was holding them back? Really id like to know what your explanation for this is.

Duke_of_Ray-

Quote[/b] ]It seems America is almost alone in being willing to fight terrorism. I do have to say thanks to England, Poland, and every country tht truly did help us out. Thank you.

Hmm? Terrorism you say? As a european i cant say im aquainted with such a phenomenon.

Remind me. Did we invade Iraq in order to fight terrorism?

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Fallujah - US troops sweeping through Fallujah on Thursday said they believe they have found a "training centre" for the insurgent group headed by Jordanian terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi

In video footage shot by an embedded CNN crew, soldiers walked through one imposing building with concrete columns with a large sign in Arabic on the wall reading "Al-Qaeda Organiation" and "There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger."

Al-Zarqawi's group, al-Qaeda in Iraq, is considered the deadliest terrorist network in the country, held responsible for a string of deadly car bombings and gruesome kidnappings and beheadings of foreign hostages, including American Nicholas Berg.

Inside the building, US soldiers found documents, old computers, notebooks, photographs and copies of the Qu'ran.

The footage also showed that flight patterns were found for aircraft, along with plans and instructions for how to shoot them down.

There were also two letters inside the house, one from al-Zarqawi giving instructions to two of his lieutenants in the region. Another sought money and help from the terrorist leader.

Iraqi authorities have acknowledged that al-Zarqawi, along with other Fallujah insurgent leaders, escaped from the rebel bastion west of Baghdad where he was based.

In neighbouring Jordan, authorities detained al-Zarqawi's nephew near the Jordanian-Iraqi border, a distant relative and a clergyman close to the family said on Thursday.

The clergyman and the relative, both of whom spoke on condition of anonymity, said security officials had informed the family that Mohammed al-Harahsheh had been detained last month.

The relative said al-Harahsheh was being questioned on suspicion of attempting to infiltrate into Iraq to join his militant uncle.

Jordan has been trying to prevent Jordanians and other Arabs from slipping across its desert border to fight American troops in Iraq.

Al-Zarqawi is wanted by both Jordanian and American authorities.

The US has offered $25m for information leading to his capture.

His group recently announced its allegiance to al-Qaeda,

A Jordanian military court has sentenced al-Zarqawi to death in absentia for taking part in a terror conspiracy targeting Americans and Israelis in Jordan.

No wonder we couldn't find him!

Link

[billybob2002 0]

Hey, the insurgents ran the city.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]Maybe it is just too hard for you to admit how the world has changed these last few years, and that this enemy is not the smae as any before.

WHat enemy , define me this enemy of your please?

[Iblis 0]

Quote[/b] ]WHat enemy , define me this enemy of your please?

Its like porn. You can't define it, but you know it when you see it.

Its those people whose interpretation of Islam requires the destruction of everything that is not Islamic to occurr in order for paradise on this planet to be achieved.

In other words it requires the destruction of any culture that is not Islamic. This includes Israel, India, the US, Russia, and as the Netherlands has tragically learned Western Europe. Its not about the policies of one governement or another. Russia's policies are very different from the US's but they had Beslan and the US had 9/11. Its about a clash of cultures. Its how we in the west live that these Islamofascists (for lack of a better word) despise. Why else was Van Gogh butchered?

They don't wear uniforms, they strike at civilians, and they don't even try to adhere to internationally accepted norms. Its like its a blood cult masquerading as a religion.

That's the enemy.

Why Iraq, well I think they used Saddam for his money and weapons, and Saddam used 'em because they're disposable. Both sides benefited.

*edit*

to avoid confusion when I write Islamic, I mean the Islamofascist's view of Islam

[python3 0]

Quote[/b] ]WHat enemy , define me this enemy of your please?

Its not about the policies of one governement or another. Russia's policies are very different from the US's but they had Beslan and the US had 9/11. Its about a clash of cultures. Its how we in the west live that these Islamofascists (for lack of a better word) despise. Why else was Van Gogh butchered?

Why Iraq, well I think they used Saddam for his money and weapons, and Saddam used 'em because they're disposable. Both sides benefited.

i beg to differ. I think certain policies have led to conflict. To say that it is because they hate how the west lives is rubbish. What are they gonna do? convert the western world? get real.

Enough of this freedom crap already. not too many people in the middle east give a rats a$$ about democracy and most dont care how anyone in the west lives,as long as it is not imposed on them, kinda like iraq nowadays.

sure there is a clash of cultures, a pretty big one, but that has yet to be the leading cause. They always address specific greivances in their tapes etc. and none of them are that they hate freedom and democracy. its an insurgency to combat US attempts to control the entire region.

Van Gogh was murdered because somone could not handle the shit he was spewing out.

Nobody used saddam for his money because these dictators dont support powerful organizations. Why would they fund and arm a movement that can strike anywhere in the world at a time of their choosing. These groups are more powerful than national armies. Look what the arab world could not do, but hezbollah did. they kicked israels a$$.

time to wake up to reality.

[denoir 0]

They don't wear uniforms, they strike at civilians, and they don't even try to adhere to internationally accepted norms.

There's a Russian joke that goes something like this:

Quote[/b] ]

In the after life Tsar Nikolai II runs into Lenin. He ask him:

"So, tell me Vladimir Ilyich, how's Russia these days?"

"Just fine", answers Lenin.

"Are the people still oppressed?" asks Nikolai

"Sure they are", says Lenin

"Is the secret police still persecuting people?" continues Nikolai

"Absolutely"

"How about the Vodka? Is it still 95%?" asks Nikolai

"It's 98%!", brags Lenin.

"Well" pauses Nikolai, "tell me Lenin. Was it really worth throwing a revolution for those three percent?"

So to paraphrase that joke, does the lack of uniforms really mean that much to you?

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]How exactly is Iraq part on the war on terror? Was Iraq supporting terrorists or something?

   Well Saddam did support Hamas and Hezbolla. They don't count as terrorist organisations though, they just kill filthy jews and I hear they built a school. (They can't top old Bin though, he built day care centers for working women)

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Well Saddam did support Hamas and Hezbolla. They don't count as terrorist organisations though, they just kill filthy jews and I hear they built a school. (They can't top old Bin though, he built day care centers for working women)

Saddam supported the families of the suicide bombers, Just like Saudi-Arabia, and all "friends" of usa in that region. Why isnt saudi-arabia attacked on the war on terror?

[Iblis 0]

Hey python, read what they stabbed to Van Gogh's chest.

After they shot him and slit his throat.

It is about culture and values.

And it could be construed as being racist, if not elitist, to suggest that just because a people have yet to experience democracy, that they don't want it or would be capable of self-government.

Ask Poland.

Al Qaeda has attacked the Saudi Royal family and its intrests and has stated that the overthrow of that regime is one of their goals. I actually wouldn't mind seeing them go, but having another Iran isn't a pleasant thought.