The Iraq thread 4

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ] The problem starts at the point when the enemy decides to use civilians as human shields. How would you all knowing expert of urban warfare handle that situation? I really would like to know. Oh and by the way retreat and surrender are not options.

It drives me nuts how people will not condem the ones who actually hide behind women and children. They know what the outcome will be when they do that.

Basically taking hostages is ok. If you take a hostage or hide in a school or populated area you are cleared of all responsibility for any damage caused.

Absolute madness.

No one is condoning the use of civilians as shields, but that is standard ROE for insurgents, so why not be prepared for it? Surely there are Special Forces available to make quick specific target attacks.

Because I know dropping 2000lb bombs in the middle of residential neighborhoods to kill one man is NOT helping our cause.

How can you with a straight face, say the coalition does not mean to kill civilians while doing that? They hoping no one will be home? Whether they specifically target civilians or not is not the issue. They do nothing to minimize the damage.

Quote[/b] ]He did vote against the bill and said it was a "protest" vote.

As stated before, it was against the blank check to Haliburton, which is now being criminally investigated by the FBI I might add.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]As stated before, it was against the blank check to Haliburton, which is now being criminally investigated by the FBI I might add.

Again, as stated before, he did not vote for it because he wanted the rollback to pay for. Even the guy who co-sponsored the bill with him, in the end, voted for 87 billion.

[Donnervogel 0]

Quote[/b] ]The problem starts at the point when you decide to bomb areas full of civilians.

The problem starts at the point when the enemy decides to use civilians as human shields. How would you all knowing expert of urban warfare handle that situation? I really would like to know. Oh and by the way retreat and surrender are not options.

It drives me nuts how people will not condem the ones who actually hide behind women and children. They know what the outcome will be when they do that.

Basically taking hostages is ok. If you take a hostage or hide in a school or populated area you are cleared of all responsibility for any damage caused.

Absolute madness.

Hi my friend.

You are right. Those people fighting against the US are using tactics as you decribe them sometimes. Not allways though. Sometimes they are just fighting in their neighbourhood and it's clear that there are civillians around too. Now since I'm a total expert in living in urban areas I can tell you this much: It' doesn't matter if the terrorists take human shields or not. If you're going to bomb civillian houses without proper knowledge of who is in them you will kill civillians. Not to mention that your bombs often hit the wrong targets (I don't know why. I just saw it too often to belive in the total precission bullshit).

See I don't say you're not allowed to go for insurgents that are acting in urban surroundings. But you need to adjust the means you use to get them. If you're using heavy firepower to protect your troops (because the US is always panically afraid of losing own troops - still they send them to war - how strange) it's done at the cost of the security of civillians living in the area you operate. You can still choose to flatten the whole neighbourhood and not lose your own troops. But then don't wonder why the resistance is growing stronger every day. It's like putting petrol in the fire. People that have lost everything they have except their life don't get intimidated by brutal power. The only get a strong convition that it's right to kill the oppressors.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Another way of looking at it is, not to appear oppressive or carelessly allow people to percieve the occupation of Iraq as oppressive. In a war against terrorism (in which Iraq is NOW a part), perception is key.

Of course this can be difficult when coming under attack but to think otherwise or behave as if this is not the case is simply inviting a widening, deepening and broadening of conflict. A 'low key' approach would be ideal to maintain (allowing the war against terrorism to be waged less obviously or provocatively- remembering how vital perceptions and 'hearts and minds' are in achieving some kind of victory/peace/lasting safety)

[denoir 0]

Hungary to pull troops from Iraq within 5 months [uSA Today]

Quote[/b] ]Hungary will withdraw its 300 troops from Iraq by the end of March, the country's new prime minister said Wednesday.

The announcement is a blow to President Bush's efforts to hold the coalition together despite increasing violence in Iraq. Hungarian officials said they delayed the announcement until after the U.S. presidential elections.

The Hungarian force, a transportation contingent, is based at Hillah, 65 miles south of Baghdad, and is under Polish command.

The parliamentary mandate for Hungary's mission in Iraq will expire Dec. 31. Peter Matyuc, a defense ministry spokesman, said the government would ask the parliament Monday to extend it until March 31.

Hungarian Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsany said it was the country's duty to stay through Iraq's January elections. "To stay there much longer is impossible," he said.

One Hungarian soldier has died in Iraq, killed when a roadside bomb exploded by the water-carrying convoy he was guarding.

Hungary on Wednesday abandoned its military draft system after 136 years.

There are 21,304 non-U.S. troops from 28 nations in Iraq, augmenting the U.S. force of 138,000.

Other nations that have recently announced withdrawals include: Poland, with 2,350 troops; Italy, 3,000; the Netherlands, 1,300; Ukraine, 1,450, Norway, 300; New Zealand, 61; and Thailand, 880.

Previously, Spain, the Dominican Republic, Honduras, Nicaragua, the Philippines, the Czech Republic, Kazakhstan and El Salvador withdrew forces. New contributors to the force are South Korea and Tonga.

In Iraq, a suspected suicide bomber blew up his vehicle on the main road to Baghdad's airport Wednesday, killing an Iraqi security officer and wounding seven civilians, witnesses and hospital staff said.

Elsewhere in Baghdad, gunmen kidnapped a Lebanese-American businessman, the second U.S. citizen seized this week in Baghdad, officials said Wednesday. West of Baghdad, U.S. warplanes struck targets in Fallujah seven times Wednesday. The U.S. military is poised for a full-scale offensive on Fallujah, a militant stronghold 35 miles west of Baghdad.

Grand coalition, eh?

[joltan 0]

Oh, wow, with Tonga providing troops - who needs other allies...

[Bernadotte 0]

Médécins sans FrontiÄres (MSF) is pulling out of Iraq.

[Acecombat 0]

So whos left now?

Americans/Britons/Australians? Thats it?

I guess Bush can play this war safely for the next 4 years from his WHITE house since this wont end anytime soon at all especially when all help is going away thanks to him.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

So whos left now?

Americans/Britons/Australians? Thats it?

I guess Bush can play this war safely for the next 4 years from his WHITE house since this wont end anytime soon at all especially when all help is going away thanks to him.

Britons? Well the brits are quite confused... I mean look at this newspaper of today

http://[mg]

image removed

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

lol excellent.

[Blake 0]

Big operation to 'sweep & clear' Falluja has been mounting up for some time now. This time they're going to sweep the entire City if I've understood correctly.

But I bet the insurgents have been using this time to reinforce their positions so the battle will probably be very bloody.

[billybob2002 0]

Albert: Please remove that image because that amounts to flame baiting.

[Blake 0]

Flame baiting huh? Like anybody would start flaming anybody for a picture...

[CosmicCastaway 0]

3 UK troops from the Blackwatch have just been killed in an ambush:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3983443.stm

Quote[/b] ]The deaths, as well as a number of other casualties, happened in the area patrolled by the Black Watch, but no more details have yet been released.

[Pathy 0]

This is what you get when the fucking media reports exactly where our lads are going to be deployed. I say we round up the press, conscript them, and send them to do peacekeeping duties.....

[Blake 0]

Probably hard to hide such controversial as troop redeployment which has been debated in the parliament. But I do believe the publicity the decision created might have served to attract strikes against the British as insurgents may try to weaken the coalition and drive a wedge between UK and US.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]This is what you get when the fucking media reports exactly where our lads are going to be deployed. I say we round up the press, conscript them, and send them to do peacekeeping duties.....

There is not a single city in Iraq with no rebel presence.Some are more active then others like let's say Southern Iraq which enjoys relative calm to Baghdad where there are large scale attacks on a daily basis.It would be as ignorant to blame the media for insurgents finding out where the British troops are deploying as it is safe to say that the Iraqi rebels are more then capable to notice on their own such a massive redepolyment, distinguish Warrior vechicles and British fatigues.

Need I say that is beyond doubt the deliberate nature of the attacks on the Blackwatch most likely the insurgents are trying to make a point that there is a considerable price to pay for US few allies(1?) in Iraq that would still consider deploying in dangerous areas which was to be expected but still a smart move.

If you want to point fingers,the man responsable for this political motivated manouver would be a safe bet by my account.

[denoir 0]

3 UK troops from the Blackwatch have just been killed in an ambush:

...

This was so predictable. Earlier today BBC reported that the UK troops were going to move in towards Fallujah.

So much for the guarantees that it was just a temporary move and that they would be back in the south very soon.

Having said that, the move can hardly be criticized. The UK chose to be a part of the war and has to stand by its allies.

[PiNs_Da_Smoka 0]

Wow, the media completely obliterating OPSEC?! I've never heard such blasphemy.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

3 UK troops from the Blackwatch have just been killed in an ambush:

...

This was so predictable. Earlier today BBC reported that the UK troops were going to move in towards Fallujah.

So much for the guarantees that it was just a temporary move and that they would be back in the south very soon.

Having said that, the move can hardly be criticized. The UK chose to be a part of the war and has to stand by its allies.

They are comming home before Crimbo as part of the usual rotation, tbh with all the media hype they were one of the biggest targets in Iraq.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Iraqis Challenge Bush to Do Better Than Saddam

Thu Nov 4, 2004 06:38 AM ET

By Lin Noueihed

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraqis challenged re-elected President Bush on Thursday to bring them the elusive new dawn he promised when U.S. forces deposed Saddam Hussein.

"Bush talks about freedom and democracy but all the Americans have brought is death and destruction. Where's our electricity? Where's our oil money?" asked Abu Ghazwan, a greengrocer in southwestern Baghdad.

"Bush got rid of Saddam, the madman behind the mass graves, the wars and the huge debts. Now let him do better. Bush wants to play occupier, then let him improve security."

Struggling with daily bombings and kidnappings that have plagued the country since last year's invasion, many Iraqis were dismayed Bush had won another term, though few had hoped for much better from his Democratic challenger John Kerry.

While glad to be rid of Saddam, many Iraqis, like most Arabs, worried that another four years of Bush would bring more bloodshed to a country that has borne the brunt of his administration's doctrine of preemptive attacks.

"They call Saddam a criminal, but Bush is the biggest criminal and terrorist in the world. I only expect crimes and killings and occupation of Muslim countries from him," said Waad Mohammed Ali, a butcher in Baghdad's central Karrada area.

"Not that Kerry would have been much better. They're all determined to suck our blood."

With more than 1,100 American soldiers killed in Iraq since the U.S.-led war began and more than 138,000 U.S. troops now struggling with a relentless insurgency there, Iraq was a divisive American campaign issue.

Kerry had accused Bush of mishandling Iraq and pledged to reach out more to U.S. allies. Bush vowed to stay the course.

"Choosing Bush for a new term is a crisis for Iraqis, especially people in Falluja, because it will prompt him to continue his policy of killing and destruction against Arabs and Muslims," said Mohammed Ali, a student from the rebel-held Sunni Muslim city that faces daily U.S. bombardment.

BRING FREEDOM, BRING DEMOCRACY

Many Iraqis were less concerned with who was in the White House than whether its occupant would make it safe for them to go out after dark again and would finally withdraw U.S. troops.

"The occupation would have continued even if Kerry won, so I'm not happy either way," said Ismael Saleh from the northern city of Kirkuk. "I'll only be happy when the occupation ends."

Some just hoped they would be able to cast their own ballots in what they hope will be Iraq's first free election in decades, scheduled for January but threatened by violence.

"Even if Kerry had won it would have been the same for Arabs," said Meqdad Qais al-Hakim, a Shi'ite Muslim grocer in Baghdad. "But since Bush won I hope he will pull the American forces out of Iraq and hold elections on time."

Some Iraqis seemed content that Saddam was behind bars and Bush still in the White House.

"I am happy Bush won because he got rid of Saddam's regime and that's all," Hassan Ali al-Jibouri, a young baker, said, giving a reporter five freshly baked loaves to celebrate.

Linky

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Well the UK media has reported every (frequent) mortar attack, suspected or real roadside device and every move the Black Watch has made before this as well as a medium scale media debate preceding the deployment, so no it doesnt exactly come as a suprise.

Now British soldiers too can enjoy the full pleasure of fighting in exciting central Iraq for...um what was it? Freedom, with our gay marriage banning US allies.

[Blake 0]

I'm sure it's heartwarming for them to hear in their barracks TV sets that moral values were more important issue than their brave efforts in Iraq...

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm sure it's heartwarming for them to hear in their barracks TV sets that moral values were more important issue than their brave efforts in Iraq...

Including the economy. Dude everybody (99.9999998%) respects their efforts in Iraq.

[Blake 0]

Including the economy. Dude everybody (99.9999998%) respects their efforts in Iraq.

Economy? Please. And remember what you said about economy? 'erm...hmm...doesn't affect me'