International Politics Thread

[billybob2002 0]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspap....73.html

Plus, there is a siege  going on  for over 18 months on Gaza.

Is Hamas just going to watch their people starve to death?

Mr. Morrison conveniently ignores the fact that Israel conducted the raid because they believed a tunnel was being dug near one of their fences.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

Quote[/b] ]

The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away. Four Israeli soldiers were injured in the operation, two moderately and two lightly, the military said.

So, Israel was supposed to sit on its ass while Hamas dug a tunnel near its border? Does Mr. Morrision remember the Gilad Schalit abduction? Hamas still has that guy.

Mr. Morrison also fails to realize that Hamas didn't hold up to their end entirely. Or, does he ignore it? Before the November 6 raid, there were mortar and rocket attacks from Gaza. A lot of those attacks came from "anonymous" (unnamed) groups. Who would lose the most if they admitted it was them conducting those attacks? Is that not a violation of the cease fire? However, Mr. Morrison plays off those attacks as minimal because they didn't kill anyone.

Quote[/b] ]

David Morrison is political officer of the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign

Then again, Mr. Morrison is a highly bias person. So, he would probably call me a puppet for the evil Zionist state of Israel.

[Mr_Tea 0]

Is Hamas just going to watch their people starve to death?

And how could they improve their situation by shooting rockets and grenades at Israeli civilians?

On the other hand, if they manage to bring thousands of rockets into Gaza, where is the problem to bring food in instead?

The problem is that Hamas only interest is to fight Israel.

Ever thought on what the market price for those thousands of missiles would be?

They get them for free maybe, but only to use them against Israel.

With a terrorist group in charge over Gaza, the situation can`t improve.

[Supernova 0]

Is Hamas just going to watch their people starve to death?

And how could they improve their situation by shooting rockets and grenades at Israeli civilians?

On the other hand, if they manage to bring thousands of rockets into Gaza, where is the problem to bring food in instead?

The problem is that Hamas only interest is to fight Israel.

Ever thought on what the market price for those thousands of missiles would be?

They get them for free maybe, but only to use them against Israel.

With a terrorist group in charge over Gaza, the situation can`t improve.

You're comment make me laugh. You sound like a zionist supporter. Hamas has every right to defend it's lands from Israel and that includes the use of force. Also anyone defending Israel's attack on Gaza is a zionist supporter.

[simba 0]

Hi all,

Then again, Mr. Morrison is a highly bias person. So, he would probably call me a puppet for the evil Zionist state of Israel.

as an unbiased person, you probably forgot to post this

(also from the guardian) :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world....-agenda

Quote[/b] ]After the debacle of its 2006 invasion of Lebanon - not only a military disaster for Israel, but also a political and diplomatic one - the government in Tel Aviv spent months laying the groundwork at home and abroad for the assault on Gaza with quiet but energetic lobbying of foreign administrations and diplomats, particularly in Europe and parts of the Arab world.

And the reason that justifies for you the israelian attack is that

they were digging a tunnel, on their own soil (near the border) ?

A good reason to break a cease fire is a direct attack against your troops/civilians,

not some fuzzy intel wish indicates that some of your border patrols might be attacked.

I'm sure they could have dealt with this tunnel many other ways,

no... they had to send troops, one palestinan was killed, obviously the truce was going to end.

But this isn't the reason of the attack since as you said :

Before the November 6 raid, there were mortar and rocket attacks from Gaza. A lot of those attacks came from "anonymous" (unnamed) groups. Who would lose the most if they admitted it was them conducting those attacks? Is that not a violation of the cease fire?

this is better documented than space exploration, looks like our zionist lobbyist have done their homework.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....in_2008

Why did they wait so long to attack since the cease fire was declared on June, 19 2008 ?

They were just preparing to do the job properly this time.

What's the point of the attack ?

I like Walker's version :

Israel could take the high stakes poker route. Simply moving into bits of Gaza and saying they are annexing them and are now part of Israel and will never be given back. Do it say 500m at a time. Wait a day then do some more. Let the increasing loss of land do the negotiating.

[Mr_Tea 0]

You're comment make me laugh. You sound like a zionist supporter. Hamas has every right to defend it's lands from Israel and that includes the use of force. Also anyone defending Israel's attack on Gaza is a zionist supporter.

Than laugh if you like too.

The Hamas as an terrorist organization has absolutely no right at all. Their gaol was to provoke what is happening now, knowing very well, how much the civilians will be affected from it.

[echo1 0]

You're comment make me laugh. You sound like a zionist supporter. Hamas has every right to defend it's lands from Israel and that includes the use of force. Also anyone defending Israel's attack on Gaza is a zionist supporter.

Allow me to repeat that, except swapping the names around.

"You're [sic] comment make [sic] me laugh. You sound like a Hamas supporter. Israel has every right to defend it's lands from Hamas that includes the use of force. Also anyone defending Hamas' attack on Israel is a hamas supporter."

The difference between what you are saying and what I am saying is that Israel is a soveirgn state that has a duty to defend it's people from a terrorist group.

Why do people forget about Hamas' attacks on Israel? Come on folks, they have a right to defend themselves. If it's alright for America to waltz in and bomb Iraq over some imaginary WMDs, why can't Israel invade a country over an actual tangible threat.

[Baff1 0]

Is Hamas just going to watch their people starve to death?

And how could they improve their situation by shooting rockets and grenades at Israeli civilians?

The exact same way as Israeli's can improve theirs by airstrikes.

The object is to make the price your enemy pays for it's actions a price higher than it is willing to.

And when they get Apache's with Hellfires and F16's with laser guided bombs, they can better choose where their bombs will land.

As it is they are lucky to hit anything at all. Let alone a military target.

There are two ways this violence will stop. Total annihilation of either party or military parity.

If Palestinians become an equal military power to Israel, it will stop. If Palestine is able to do to Israel what Israel has been doing to Palestine, The Israeli's won't want it any more.

Wars occour when stronger military powers confront weaker military powers. Peace occours when there is a status quo.

@Walker

Palestine has nothing to negotiate with mate. Some crappy home made rockets and making bombs out of their children.

As long as Israel never comes to the table it will continue to win every negotation.

It is in Israel's intrests to push their military advantage for as long as they can before international pressure closes them down again.

[Supernova 0]

Quote[/b] ]Palestine has nothing to negotiate with mate. Some crappy home made rockets and making bombs out of their children.

As long as Israel never comes to the table it will continue to win every negotation.

Excuse me but you know very little. It's only a matter of time before either Syria or Iran decide to do something about this situation. It could many options and one of them would be to send volunteers (ex 2006 lebanon war) or provide military support through illegal shipments of armanents etc...

[billybob2002 0]

And the reason that justifies for you the israelian attack is that

they were digging a tunnel, on their own soil (near the border) ?

Hamas has used tunnels to smuggle weapons and people. Furthermore, they had used tunnels to attack Israelis positions before. For example, they used a tunnel when they abducted Gilad Shalit. The tunnel was dug on Palestinian land and crossed over into Israel.

Quote[/b] ]

I'm sure they could have dealt with this tunnel many other ways,

no... they had to send troops, one palestinan was killed, obviously the truce was going to end.

Like what? Send Hamas a note asking if they can please stop making the tunnel? During the raid, a Hamas militant was killed. Not some ordinary Palestinian.

Quote[/b] ]

Why did they wait so long to attack since the cease fire was declared on June, 19 2008 ?

They were just preparing to do the job properly this time.

And? Israel needed a plan if the ceasefire ended. They were just being prepared.

[Mr_Tea 0]

Israel has always to be prepared, because it is surrounded by enemy's more or less.

And with Hamas in charge over Gaza, what happens now had to come sooner or later. Even an blind man could see that clearly.

[Baff1 0]

Quote[/b] ]Palestine has nothing to negotiate with mate. Some crappy home made rockets and making bombs out of their children.

As long as Israel never comes to the table it will continue to win every negotation.

Excuse me but you know very little. It's only a matter of time before either Syria or Iran decide to do something about this situation. It could many options and one of them would be to send volunteers (ex 2006 lebanon war) or provide military support through illegal shipments of armanents etc...

The only country with any access to Gaza that isn't Israel is Egypt.

Syria and Iran can't get volunteers into Gaza any more than the U.N. or the BBC can.

Palestine isn't Lebanon.

They share no family ties with Iran or common religion.

No borders or transit links with Syria.

They could declare war.

Given that Israel has threatened to wipe Tehran off the map and has the nukes and the balls to do it, and that they regularly bomb Syria without reprisal, I don't think Hamas need to be holding out much hope for help from those quarters.

But you are right in essence.

They need international help to stand up to Israel or they will always fail.

I can't see them getting any though.

Look what happened to Saddam.

Maybe Egypt will step up to the plate and re-annex them one day. But er.. who would want to?

[Scorpio 0]

Israel was created by the sword and will destroy itself the same way. Palestinians had a homeland - Israel took it. Along that, they have for 60 years denied Palestinians the most basic human rights. A Jewish homeland is all well and good, but what gives them the right to take it from others? The end does not justify the means!

Saying that "Israel has a right to defend itself" is rediculous: imagine Britain invading New York, building a wall around it, transferring British settlers to live there, packing all Americans into Manhatten, and starving the population of the most basic humanitarian supplies. And then they have the nerve to ask, why are they fighting back?

The only reason people in America support Israel is that they own you. They own the media, the congress, the highest echelons of government. That is surprisingly no conspiracy - it is in fact well known and accepted. It is not just an Israeli lobby - it is an Israeli government in the US. They can influence US opinion and exploit the emotional connection that Israel and the US have, in that they both are supposedly having to defend their countries against terrorrism.

Hamas has no right to target unarmed people. They have no right to exploit children and use them as suicide bombers. I have no love for the Palestinians, but I for one care about the innocent people that are collectively punished for the acts of others. At the end of the day, what are you going to call it when innocent people are bombed? Collateral damage? Unfortunate effects of war? Or maybe you just don't give a shit?

A nation of Holocaust survivors should be a beacon of morality, not a black hole for it. Israel has ignored over 100 UN resolutions, disrespects the very basic human rights, and has violated the Fourth Geneva Convention. Israel is and always will be a terrorist state.

[Mr_Tea 0]

At the end of the day, what are you going to call it when innocent people are bombed? Collateral damage? Unfortunate effects of war? Or maybe you just don't give a shit?

Hamas rockets where aimed exclusively at civilians, how would you call that?

You seem do give a shit on that yourself.

Now as Israel reacts, the people around world are protesting against the violence.

Where have the protesters been when the Hamas rockets rained down on Israeli cities?

Or do all have accepted that as normal: "It`s only Hamas doing their hobby", or what?

[simba 0]

Hi all,

Hamas rockets where aimed exclusively at civilians, how would you call that?

You seem do give a shit on that yourself.

Home made Quassam that make up the bulk of hamas arsenal

are widly inaccurate and short range (10 km max according to wiki, some might have travelled 20 km).

You can undertand now that if it hits something, that's already a success for them,

I bet military bases aren't very far from settlements.

Like what? Send Hamas a note asking if they can please stop making the tunnel? During the raid, a Hamas militant was killed. Not some ordinary Palestinian.

Precision strikes, threats to attack if the tunnel isn't destroyed etc.

The chain of consequences isn't as it is presented to us :

- Israel discover the tunnel

- send troops for destruction

- 1 Palestinian killed/4 isrealian soldiers wounded

- Hamas restarts shooting rockets breaking the cease fire.

- Israel counterattacks

but rather :

- Israel discover/knows about the tunnel (the pretext)

- send troops for destruction

- 1 Palestinian killed/4 isrealian soldiers wounded

- Hamas shoots even more rockets for revenge, (there has never been a cease fire since Israelian never really opened Gaza borders.)

- Israel can say, we have to protect our people, send the troops in, they were only waiting for the right time.

There are also other variables in this war,

elections always elections :

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-12-29-Israel_N.htm

Quote[/b] ]The outcome of the February vote could be determined by how effectively Israel presses its campaign against Palestinian militants in Gaza. Two of the top contenders for prime minister are Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, who has pressed Israel's case in multiple TV appearances worldwide, and Defense Minister Ehud Barak, who is the strategic mastermind behind the offensive.

Since this war encountered wide approval amongst israelian population,

Likoud will probably benefits a lot from the recent events and might win february elections.

[Scorpio 0]

At the end of the day, what are you going to call it when innocent people are bombed? Collateral damage? Unfortunate effects of war? Or maybe you just don't give a shit?

Hamas rockets where aimed exclusively at civilians, how would you call that?

Terrorism? If you read my post, I'm not defending Hamas' actions. I'm just saying that Israel is much more brutal. I'm saying that Israel, the military, the settlers, even some of the "civilians" are terrorists aswell by definition.

You're closing your eyes to the fact that the creation of Israel saw millions of Palestinians driven from their homes and made refugees.

Think about how you'd feel: if you have a home, then you're kicked out, your land taken, and given to religious fanatics. Then you build a new home - and that new home is bulldozed. Then you're forced to live in what is effectively a large concentration camp. You can't go anywhere without the go-ahead of your checkpoints. You have to get papers just to travel to the hospital or to pray at the mosque. You're not allowed to leave the country. There is a huge wall erected around you. You live in the most degrading conditions while just a few metres away Israelis are living in shiny new houses with swimming pools. You're repeatedly harassed and questioned. Then ask yourself - would you pick up a gun and fight? Would you fight those who have taken your possesions, your rights, and your dignity?

Quote[/b] ]Where have the protesters been when the Hamas rockets rained down on Israeli cities?

I guess people don't protest over a handful of Israeli deaths but do over the deaths of thousands Palestinians. I guess its the extent of the horror that determines how much media coverage it gets. Sad but true.

In Hamas' eyes, if you actively support Israel by living there as a citizen, you are a target. They fight Israel not because they "hate freedom" or because they "hate Jews" - their religious fanatism is merely a method to incite fervor and zeal. Rather, they hate Israel because of everything they've taken from the Palestinians. That, and what Israel stands for: Zionism - taking the spiritual nature of Judaism and turning it into a political movement.

[Baff1 0]

Given the number of former hotel bombers that have gone on to become Israeli Prime Ministers I think those people who are not directly and personally involved in the conflict might not want to be so quick to judge the legitimacy of terrorism.

It's the same in Northern Island, they used to blow up school children now they are ministers for education. It sounds wrong so wrong, but thats how governments all start.

[simba 0]

Some fresh news,

CNN Confirms Israel Broke Ceasefire First:

In the video, a palestinian legislator says that 2 months ago Israel started attacking Rafah and also that Israel never lifted the blockade

Gaza was without fuel, electricity, bread, medication, medical equipement,...

Rockets fired from Lebanon hit northern Israel :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world....inians2

Quote[/b] ]At least four rockets were fired from Lebanon into northern Israel today, leading the Israeli army to return fire and raising fears that the conflict in Gaza could spread [...]

For the first time, the conflict widened to northern Israel, where four katyusha rockets fired from southern Lebanon landed near the town of Nahariya, injuring two people [...]

Hezbollah made no immediate comment, and its TV station carried reports of the exchange without any commentary.

Radical Palestinian factions also have a presence in Lebanon, and the Syrian-backed Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine general command had warned it could open other fronts against Israel if the attack on Gaza continued.

Lebanese security forces said they believed the rockets were probably fired by a Palestinian group inspired by Hezbollah.

[Scorpio 0]

This article pretty much sums up the whole conflict:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

[simba 0]

Hi all,

The guardian published today an article from Noami Klein, the

very famous writer of "No Logo", she reckons the best thing

to end occupation is to boycott Israel product, such measure

probably won't be foffowed by our gov. but next time you go shopping have a look on the origin of the product.

I personnaly avoid buying Israelian stuff since several years mainly fruits and some processed food too.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment....-israel

Quote[/b] ]It's time. Long past time. The best strategy to end the increasingly bloody occupation is for Israel to become the target of the kind of global movement that put an end to apartheid in South Africa. In July 2005 a huge coalition of Palestinian groups laid out plans to do just that. They called on "people of conscience all over the world to impose broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era". The campaign Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions was born[...]

Punitive measures will alienate rather than persuade Israelis.

The world has tried what used to be called "constructive engagement". It has failed utterly. Since 2006 Israel has been steadily escalating its criminality: expanding settlements, launching an outrageous war against Lebanon, and imposing collective punishment on Gaza through the brutal blockade. Despite this escalation, Israel has not faced punitive measures - quite the opposite [...]

Boycott is not a dogma; it is a tactic. The reason the strategy should be tried is practical: in a country so small and trade-dependent, it could actually work.

Since negociations led nowhere and it seems out of question to send a peace keeping force on Israelian soil, this might be quite effective.

[billybob2002 0]

Hi all,

The guardian published today an article from Noami Klein, the

very famous writer of "No Logo", she reckons the best thing

to end occupation is to boycott Israel product, such measure

probably won't be foffowed by our gov. but next time you go shopping have a look on the origin of the product.

I personnaly avoid buying Israelian stuff since several years mainly fruits and some processed food too.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment....-israel

Quote[/b] ]It's time. Long past time. The best strategy to end the increasingly bloody occupation is for Israel to become the target of the kind of global movement that put an end to apartheid in South Africa. In July 2005 a huge coalition of Palestinian groups laid out plans to do just that. They called on "people of conscience all over the world to impose broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era". The campaign Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions was born[...]

Punitive measures will alienate rather than persuade Israelis.

The world has tried what used to be called "constructive engagement". It has failed utterly. Since 2006 Israel has been steadily escalating its criminality: expanding settlements, launching an outrageous war against Lebanon, and imposing collective punishment on Gaza through the brutal blockade. Despite this escalation, Israel has not faced punitive measures - quite the opposite [...]

Boycott is not a dogma; it is a tactic. The reason the strategy should be tried is practical: in a country so small and trade-dependent, it could actually work.

Since negociations led nowhere and it seems out of question to send a peace keeping force on Israelian soil, this might be quite effective.

I boycott Palestinian products because of Hamas and the various terror organizations within the Palestinian terrorities. Wait! Do they even export anything excluding terrorism?

[Maddmatt 1]

Since negociations led nowhere and it seems out of question to send a peace keeping force on Israelian soil, this might be quite effective.

But the problem with doing that is you are supporting terrorists. I'm not fond of Hamas or Israel. But I think it would be a good thing if Israel could wipe out Hamas, it could prevent a lot of civilian deaths in future.

Hamas are terrorists, they are relying on civillian deaths for propaganda.

By hiding among civillians they can get Israel to kill them when they attack them, and this makes people in the rest of the world see Israel as the bad guys - but in my opinion both sides are "bad guys". At least Israel doesn't hide behind civilians, so I see them as the lesser of two evils  

[sparks50 0]

Actually Matt, I do remember a video clip that made for some controversy some years ago.

It had IDF soldiers, breaking into houses of suspected terrorists by pushing civilians in front of them in the doorway as a human shield. Though granted, reports of this kind is far between.

I'm no fan of either part. And I'm no optimist when it comes to peace either. People tend to forget that Hamas has a strong following in a big part of the Palestine population. When you add the fact that the ongoing attacks gives them more supporters, you see that there can be no peace by violence in this area, even if they find and kill every Hamas that there is.

I am not questioning Israels right to fight back, only stating the hopelessness of there being any peace in this area in any close future.

[sanctuary 19]

Quote[/b] ]Hamas are terrorists, they are relying on civillian deaths for propaganda.

By hiding among civillians they can get Israel to kill them when they attack them, and this makes people in the rest of the world see Israel as the bad guys - but in my opinion both sides are "bad guys"

Indeed, with the terrorist organisation hamas out of the equation, there would be some more real chance of a ceasefire, and on the Israel side they really need to look more closely into some of their military leader that does not even question themselves before bombing civilian zones.

Until now the hamas has got exactly what they wanted : by putting their missile launchers on civilian populated areas, buildings, schools etc... Isreal sending bombs to destroy those launchers killed certainly hamas supporters , but due to those locations killed lot of innocent civilians Palestinians in the same time.

The sooner the hamas is out of this, the sooner there will be a chance for this insanity to stop, there is no excuse for innocent civilians to die , either from hamas terrorism or israeli military leaders disregarding civilians life.

But i really wonder if one day both sides of the frontier will be able to make a real peace and accept each other right to have a land and live decently.

There are so much hatred from each side, and crowd living on top of each other does not help too, as hatred spread even more easily when people are living like this.

[simba 0]

Hi all,

I boycott Palestinian products because of Hamas and the various terror organizations within the Palestinian terrorities. Wait! Do they even export anything excluding terrorism?

You just being mean billy, palestinians especially those in the Gaza strip can hardly feed themselves, I don't see how they could export.  

But the problem with doing that is you are supporting terrorists. I'm not fond of Hamas or Israel. But I think it would be a good thing if Israel could wipe out Hamas, it could prevent a lot of civilian deaths in future.

Come on Maddmatt, since the beginning of Gaza attack

864 palestinian civilians have been killed and more

than 3000 wounded, how many Israelian civilians have

been killed, less than 10, who's killing who ?

It seems to me that many people take the problem

upside down, I mean, let's take the problem globally for a minute, we know for facts that :

- Palestinian were the first on the land.

- Palestinian were robbed most of their land

- Israel is still doing all they can to take more

( Gaza settlements have been evacuated but many more

have been authorized in the west bank)

- Israel killed 1000X more palestinian than the other way around.

BUT THE PALESTINIANS ARE STILL THE TERROSISTS !

I think that one day US, EU,etc  ran out of arguments to criticize various resistance movements,

they needed a new tool,and invented this list of terrorists organisations where are listed now organisations such as

Hamas or Hezbollah.

But I'd rather refer to the dictionnary to make up my mind

and it is said that "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes."

since both parties correspond to this definition I don't see why Israelian gov or Hamas wouldn't share this status.

It appears to me quite clear that after all the oppression

palestinians suffered, some of the them chose violence,

that's entirely normal, give them a true country, not 2 fucking samples and you'll have peace !

Right now there is a very strong side against a very weak one, no peace talks can be achieved this way, that's why I strongly support Boycott on all isrealian goods.

Indeed, with the terrorist organisation hamas out of the equation, there would be some more real chance of a ceasefire, and on the Israel side they really need to look more closely into some of their military leader that does not even question themselves before bombing civilian zones.

Let's say this war effectively eliminate Hamas (wish won't happen)

and that no similar organization regrows ( wish won't happen)  

How do you see the future ?  I really would like to hear you

on this, because it doesn't seem very likely

that israelian are going to give back stolen ground just because palenstinians

got nicer.  

[sanctuary 19]

Quote[/b] ]

BUT THE PALESTINIANS ARE STILL THE TERROSISTS !

...

Let's say this war effectively eliminate Hamas (wish won't happen)

...

just because palenstinians

got nicer.

I would like to hear from you on why you are mixing the hamas organisation that people call terrorism with reason and "the Palestinians" that none called like this.

And why you "wish" the hamas does not get eliminated ?

Without the hamas, the israeli could not anymore justify their current attack, it could lead them to lot more international problem (especially commercial boycott, what usually hurt countries the most) if they decided to continue.

Quote[/b] ]How do you see the future ? I really would like to hear you

on this, because it doesn't seem very likely

that israelian are going to give back stolen ground just because palenstinians

got nicer.

Of course they will not give back lands they got from war that easily, but i can only hope they can begin to accept Palestinian has the same rights as them to live here in peace.