Documentary about the wilhelm gustloff

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]What is the "settler mentality" of people who reached Israel's shores and moved to cities and towns?

I'm talking about the kibbutz movement. However, I wouldn't be surprised if this ideology/identity helped form an identity on a national level.

Quote[/b] ]Due immigrant Norwegians have a "settler mentality"?

Hardly, but then immigrants don't break new land in Norway and establish farms or cluster of farms. And not much in Norway is considered holy. Besides, relatives of norwegians that migrated to US don't have the tendency to stay after their tourist visum have expired

Quote[/b] ]You mean it was "occupation" and "something else"?

No, you are misunderstanding what I said! I did not say Palestine/Israel (whatever) was occupied. However, to say that no land belonging to palestinians have not been expropriated is somewhat wrong.

[SpongeBob 0]

So did the soviets ever say sorry ?

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]What is the "settler mentality" of people who reached Israel's shores and moved to cities and towns?

I'm talking about the kibbutz movement. However, I wouldn't be surprised if this ideology/identity helped form an identity on a national level.

So you're referring to the mentality of Jews returning to their acestorial homeland from a lengthy and torturous exile? Sort of a redemption mentality?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Due immigrant Norwegians have a "settler mentality"?

Hardly, but then immigrants don't break new land in Norway

Neither do they here for the most part.

Quote[/b] ]and establish farms or cluster of farms.

On whose land were these Kibbutzim and Moshavim established on? Was there total lawlessness? Did the British look the other way? Or was land purchased legally fare and square with proper contractual agreements and givernment land registration?

Quote[/b] ]Besides, relatives of norwegians that migrated to US don't have the tendency to stay after their tourist visum have expired

Were Norwegians you're referring to often chased, hounded and  killed? Did they dream of living somewhere else? Another country they call home?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]You mean it was "occupation" and "something else"?

No, you are misunderstanding what I said! I did not say Palestine/Israel (whatever) was occupied. However, to say that no land belonging to palestinians have not been expropriated is somewhat wrong.

No land? Maybe some? Israeli land has also been expropriated from Jews. But for the norm, like in any country, there's a central land registry and built up communities are built on either government alloted land or on privately owned property.

[Bernadotte 0]

How can you claim that they were on their way to Israel at a time when Israel didn't exist?

So? Call it Palestine at the time. Who cares?!

LOL    You obviously do.  Why else would you deliberately keep getting it wrong?

I think it is not soooo wrong to call it is Israel since it was the land that God promised to Abraham and his descendants, it was just occupied teritory!  

Then, according to your thinking, it is not soooo wrong to refer to Jordan as Israel either?  

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Quote[/b] ]and then Israel became an independant country! Happy End!

Happy? For who?

I think this discussion belongs in the mid-east thread.

[theavonlady 2]

Then, according to your thinking, it is not soooo wrong to refer to Jordan as Israel either?

Technically, that would be correct but in practical usuage, whenever a Jew in the last 2000 years said he would be travelling to Israel, it did not include a stopover in Amman, if any.

So, amazingly, even though the land of Israel in the Bible encompasses areas east of the Jordan river, the normal use of the term Israel today does not refer to Jordan.

Incidentally, one of the main reasons for this was because when Jews returned back from Babylonian exile and built the second temple, the east boundary, in relevance to both population and Jewish law, was indeed the Jordan river.

And that's the way it is.

And what was wrong with my use of the name Palestine? I thought it would make you happy?

[Akira 0]

But as I said the story of the Exodus is a one that needs to be told.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000GVF7.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

lol!

EDIT: Removed tags per Avon's so gracious response

[theavonlady 2]

lol!

1. I thought it was a nice wholesome movie.

2. Remove IMG tags in replies.

[Bernadotte 0]

And what was wrong with my use of the name Palestine? I thought it would make you happy?

Oh, but it did make me happy.  In fact, here's a second big smilie to add to the first one I posted =>

[theavonlady 2]

And what was wrong with my use of the name Palestine? I thought it would make you happy?

Oh, but it did make me happy.  In fact, here's a second big smilie to add to the first one I posted =>

You're easy to please.

[der bastler 0]

More informations about other marine desasters in the last days of WW2:

refugee ship Cap Arcona: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_Arcona

refugee ship Goya: http://www.skovheim.org/worldwide/baltic/goya/goya.htm

(disclaimer: google was my friend)

[theavonlady 2]

More informations about other marine desasters in the last days of WW2:

refugee ship Cap Arcona: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_Arcona

refugee ship Goya: http://www.skovheim.org/worldwide/baltic/goya/goya.htm

(disclaimer: google was my friend)

That was a depressing way to end my evening.

G'nite.

[llauma 0]

But as I said the story of the Exodus is a one that needs to be told.

]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000GVF7.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

lol!

EDIT: Removed tags per Avon's so gracious response

Akira you should perhaps try to fix the quote tags.. somethings with those messes up the whole thread

[der bastler 0]

That was a depressing way to end my evening.

That was not my intention, sorry.

Btw it is 22:45 here in Hannover. Will have a tea and listen to Peter Frampton's "Premonition" (just bought the record last weekend) before visiting bed...

Good night in advance

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]So you're referring to the mentality of Jews returning to their acestorial homeland from a lengthy and torturous exile? Sort of a redemption mentality?

You seem to know the answer yourself:

Quote[/b] ]Were jews you're referring to often chased, hounded and killed? Did they dream of living somewhere else? Another country they call home? (allthough diaspora doesn't nessecarily imply persecution)

--

Quote[/b] ]Neither do they here for the most part.

But it was widespread in the late fourties and fifties.

Quote[/b] ]On whose land were these Kibbutzim and Moshavim established on? Was there total lawlessness? Did the British look the other way? Or was land purchased legally fare and square with proper contractual agreements and givernment land registration?

Look Avon, You are suggesting I have hidden motives or arguments! I did not say anything about land and ownership. And I'm very aware of the fact that much of the land was legally bought. I'm also aware of the fact that the british did what they could to prevent jews from entering Israel and also that they did everything they could to obstruct purchase of land. Some of this is described pretty good in "Exodus" .

Quote[/b] ]No land? Maybe some? Israeli land has also been expropriated from Jews. But for the norm, like in any country, there's a central land registry and built up communities are built on either government alloted land or on privately owned property.

You are right, but my point is that I support the view that there must be a jewish Israel - but also that the palestinians must be given land to establish a nation of their own.

[Placebo 29]

Akira please don't break the forum, we tend to frown on that kind of thing

[Bernadotte 0]

No, you are misunderstanding what I said! I did not say Palestine/Israel (whatever) was occupied. However, to say that no land belonging to palestinians have not been expropriated is somewhat wrong.

No land? Maybe some? Israeli land has also been expropriated from Jews. But for the norm, like in any country, there's a central land registry and built up communities are built on either government alloted land or on privately owned property.

Maybe some?  LOL... Actually around 94% of what became the state of Israel was not purchased legally.

But then, why should you have to purchase any of it when it was all promised to you by God?

[theavonlady 2]

No, you are misunderstanding what I said! I did not say Palestine/Israel (whatever) was occupied. However, to say that no land belonging to palestinians have not been expropriated is somewhat wrong.

No land? Maybe some? Israeli land has also been expropriated from Jews. But for the norm, like in any country, there's a central land registry and built up communities are built on either government alloted land or on privately owned property.

Maybe some?  LOL... Actually around 94% of what became the state of Israel was not purchased legally.

But then, why should you have to purchase any of it when it was all promised to you by God?

That's true. edit: The promise by God part. The rest is baloney.

But we didn't listen to God and settled for UN Resolution 181, you know, the Oil For Bribes conglomerate, with offices in NY and Geneva.

Time for my cup of morning Kofi.

[Bernadotte 0]

In other words, why buy the other 94% legally when it's cheaper to buy a UN resolution?

[theavonlady 2]

In other words, why buy the other 94% legally when it's cheaper to buy a UN resolution?  

Whatever.

[Longinius 1]

Get some cops in here... someone up'ed and hijacked the thread!

[brgnorway 0]

Get some cops in here... someone up'ed and hijacked the thread!

Just the right thing to keep Avon on track

Avon race slicks:

[Supah 0]

While offcourse the loss of the people aboard the wilhelm gustlof was sad lets also remember that german u boat wolfpacks werent to squeemish about attacking passengership and defenceless freighters in the northern atlantic. The men of the merchant navy that gave their lives doing their job deserve allot of credit for keeping britain going during the dark days in the beginning of the war. War is not a good thing and civillians also suffer but i think it would be wrong to villify the commander of the russian submarine. He was doing his job, all german vessels on the high sea were fair game just as the germans percieved all allied ships on the high sea regardless of their cargo as a fair target.

[Akira 0]

Whats interesting is there are many stories from both sides of U-Boats giving the crew time to leave the ship before sinking it. Then the US and Britian started puttin' guns on the merchants. That's when true unrestricted warfare started.

[Akira 0]

But as I said the story of the Exodus is a one that needs to be told.

]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000GVF7.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

lol!

EDIT: Removed tags per Avon's so gracious response

Akira you should perhaps try to fix the quote tags.. somethings with those messes up the whole thread

I tire of messing with tags! To hell with the tags! lol