Urban warfare/mout

[AdmiralKarlDonuts 0]

Hey gang,

I'm writing a paper (25 pages - the real deal) on urban warfare for one of my classes, and I thought to myself: "self, so many who play OFP are current or former military, why not see what they have to say?"

I'll set it up for you - as we all know, the wide-open Cold War tank battles that the US expected in Europe are no longer what the future of warfare looks like. We're in an era that is focusing on urban war as we saw in Mogadishu and are seeing right now all across Iraq. The rules have changed.

So the topic I plan to explore is this - what are the United States Army/Marines doing to win? Have we learned from our past experiences in urban environments? I think this is especially relevant because of what's going on in Fallujah, Baghdad, and everywhere else in Iraq.

Hopefully this thread can be a discussion (not just for me, but for everyone's benefit) on it.

But if you're a current or former soldier (any country) with experience in this area (training, deployment, whatever), and don't mind being leaned on as a quoted source, please shoot me an e-mail at...

nremies1@ithaca.edu

Either way, let's kick the idea around a bit here, eh? Thanks folks

[Pathy 0]

Well 1st of all i'd say that Urban combat is not a new thing, despite the Cold War open tank battles and all that.

I know the guys who did the pegasus bridge Coup de main assault on D-Day practiced thier Mout in the bombed out ruins of the industrial areas in Portsmouth (i think, id have to read the book again), as to get used to fighting in urban areas. (whoops thats British, but i guess it serves the point, Close combat hasnt always been overlooked)

I dont know of earlier exampled of MOUT training, but even during the Cold War, MOUT has been important, Hue City in vietnam was a fierce street by street battle that lasted a month. However, i do doubt the Marines and Soldiers there actually recieved any MOUT training.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

FISCH (hehe bet not many people know what that stands for ) is one of the hardest things to do as an infantryman.

The US army is terribly behind the times on urban warfare IMO. Almost every regiment in the British Army is trained in Urban warfare. AFAIR the US troops that were first into Iraq had done almost no training on it at all.

OBUA (Operating in built up areas) is hard for many reasons.

First, command and control is harder. Commanders can't see their soldiers and its easy to get bogged down.

Second, Blue on blue is harder to avoid without excellent communication and orders. Any new information needs to be rapidly passed to commanders through the buildings.

Thirdly, its three dimensional, whereas conventional fighting is 2 dimensional.

Fourth, it takes huge amounts of manpower to do properly. Against an enemy who has built up their defences, built up the interiors, knocked mouseholes etc, you need one soldier for each room, to make sure they don't slip back behind you.

[bn880 5]

Are you sure you aren't collecting CQB tactic info for the marines in Iraq?

[AdmiralKarlDonuts 0]

Are you sure you aren't collecting CQB tactic info for the marines in Iraq?   :P

Lol nope

Anyway I think the comparison between the US and UK's treatment of the subject is definitely noteworthy. Just the fact that US troops aren't getting any MOUT training goes a long way towards answering the question I'm posing in the paper...hmmm.

So what about the role of vehicles? The Abrams, for example, is not at all suited to support friendly infantry or operate in tight quarters like city streets. Would something like the Sheridan or the cancelled M-8 AGS be good for urban environments? How about the Stryker? It's supposedly going to be very useful in cities. Should or can vehicles play much of a role?

@Baron - you're in the British military? If so, shoot me an e-mail

[Pathy 0]

Well if the MOUT of the UK is noteworthy, then you can put my example of all the way back at Pegasus Bridge they were training for it by using bombed ruins

Want me to fetch more info or is that abit too old and irrelevant?

I am suprised to learn that most US soldiers arent receiving MOUT training nowerdays also.....

[AdmiralKarlDonuts 0]

Oh I plan to...I don't think I really need any specifics regarding that particular operation but any info on current UK training would be great.

I've contacted West Point to see if anybody there would discuss what if anything they teach regarding UW...should make for a good comparison.

[Pathy 0]

http://www.project-ukf.com/forum/index.php

Try Project UKF, Mav, Huey, JB, i know for sure are all ex / current British Armed forces, JB and Mav probably being most useful (Huey was a chally 2 tankie).

Im sure if you post nicely in the off topic section.......

While im at it, and have some spare time, a little research.

http://www.ets-news.com/urban.htm

Couple of links at the bottom, the US army ones doesnt work unfortunately

http://www.army.mod.uk

British Army site, searched for Urban Training but couldnt find anything. Worth a look anyway

[AdmiralKarlDonuts 0]

Doing some more work on this....

Anybody out there trained with MILES? Anybody been to the Shughart-Gordon "MOUT city" in Louisiana?

I'd like to hear some stories about this topic to liven the paper up a bit - might get a bit boring with facts, figures, and suchlike

[johnnylump 0]

Suggest you do some research on the Marine Corps Warfighting Laboratory, Project Metropolis, at Quanico, Va. They ran every battalion of the 1st MEF through an urban-warfare course at an old army base in California, I believe.

In addition to fighting in Mog, I'd also look to Russian invasions of Grozny for large-scale urban combat.

Cheers

jl

[NavyEEL 0]

I've contacted West Point to see if anybody there would discuss what if anything they teach regarding UW...should make for a good comparison.

Just in case nobody else from West Point responds... we actually have a center dedicated to the combating of terrorism and aspects of urban warfare. I haven't taken any of those classes yet, so I can't give you any first-hand experience. Starting last year, we are taught basic CQB and MOUT skills (to include reflexive fire) as part of our military training programs. Someone from our Combat Weapons Team or Infantry Tactics Club would probably be best available to answer your questions regarding UW--they train for it quite often doing CQB live fire training.

On a side note, yes I am aware my name says "Navy" in it, but don't let that fool you--I am 100% Army. Hooah!

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Anybody out there trained with MILES?

Yes.

We used MILES with G3 and early G36 and then switched to AGDUS system, a similar system. The MILES system is a bit flawed imo. We had a MG MILES and it never worked properly.

[AdmiralKarlDonuts 0]

Quote[/b] ]Anybody out there trained with MILES?

Yes.

We used MILES with G3 and early G36 and then switched to AGDUS system, a similar system. The MILES system is a bit flawed imo. We had a MG MILES and it never worked properly.

Could you elaborate a little on what about it was flawed? Just reliability issues with the gear or something else?

@NavyEEL - I'll look into that....so far nothing from West Point. They probably just blew me off

@johnnylump - I'll check it out, thanks for the tip. I remember seeing some story on that a while back.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Could you elaborate a little on what about it was flawed? Just reliability issues with the gear or something else?

The Miles for the mg never worked properly. It had a big failure rate.

We also had issues with the G3 at that time as the MILES system often didn´t indicate hits or indicated hits were there were none. It was overall a bit unprecise.