Us presidential election 2004

[Blake 0]

Comparing Bush and Cheney on basis of these two debates one would think that the presidency should be the other way round. I've always considered Cheney as intelligent hard-ass republican and in  the debate was light years better debater than Bush. But as it was pointed out, he's put into awkward position by recent statements of Rumsfeld and Bremer so he still has to defend himself with these rather flimsy WMD claims.

However he was particulary nasty on some attacks and proved he's a good debater. The way he spoke of made him feel the experienced 2nd man in the house he is but issues fought against his intellect this time.

Never much of heard Edwards speak before but he did make a good solid impression to me especially on domestic issues and economy. He maybe avoided some issues but proved some fresh views to the debate. A kind of typical fresh vs old veteran kind of debate in which both fight with arsenal typical of their character.

Overall, the debate was much more even than the last rather embarrasing ramble.

[billybob2002 0]

Cheney did seriously messed up on the factcheck website. It is factcheck.org and factcheck.com is a soros site...

Anyway, slight edge to Cheney...

[brgnorway 0]

Anyway, slight edge to Cheney...

I disagree!

Seing Cheney was like seing someone being uncomfortable and pale, and slightly agressive. Not a very good impression for a vice president too busy defending himself on accusations about dodgy haliburton business.

Edwards was far more calm and full of self esteem I'd say!

He also made sure to make the points about present administrations failures in Iraq. However, I was more than concerned about his views on the Israeli-palestinian conflict!

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]He also made sure to make the points about present administrations failures in Iraq.

I think Cheney got Edwards about the 90% of coalition deaths...that the dems. are totally avoiding the fact that Iraqi police, national guard and etc. are dieing fighting the insurgency. Cheney turned it around by saying Iraqis are in the fight against the insurgents too and not just the americans....destiny crap. Also, that lady put Edwards on the spot about France and Germany decision about Iraq. Furthermore, why did not Cheney talk about the "NATO" role for Iraq? Also, Cheney did briefly pointed to the fact that the US is still working with France and Germany on other things. Kind of weird that Cheney pointed to Edwards used a loophole. Edwards only responded by saying he paid his taxes and talked more about Halliburton....

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think Cheney got Edwards about the 90% of coalition deaths...that the dems. are totally avoiding the fact that Iraqis police, national guard and etc. are dieing fighting the insurgency. Cheney turned it around by saying Iraqis are in the fight against the insurgents too and not just the americans....destiny crap.

I'll give you right on that one! I was wondering why Edwards wasn't making the point that most iraqi actually don't fight but are killed anyway - because the lack of security provided by the coalition? The point should have been made clearer instead of saying " Bremer said there wasn't enough soldiers" and lack of plans for the aftermath etc.

Quote[/b] ]why did not Cheney talk about the "NATO" role for Iraq

....because there won't be a Nato role for Iraq.......

......the dayshift is here - got to go home and sleep. Talk to you later!

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]....because there won't be a Nato role for Iraq.......

erm...there is a plan to train Iraqi police and etc. outside of Iraq...

Quote[/b] ]I was wondering why Edwards wasn't making the point that most iraqi actually don't fight but are killed anyway - because the lack of security provided by the coalition?

I was not saying that... but Kerry & co. are trying to make it seem that the US is only doing the fighting inside of Iraq.... that they are totally avoiding that Iraqi police and national guard/army are fighting...

[denoir 0]

I think Cheney got Edwards about the 90% of coalition deaths...that the dems. are totally avoiding the fact that Iraqi police, national guard and etc. are dieing fighting the insurgency. Cheney turned it around by saying Iraqis are in the fight against the insurgents too and not just the americans....destiny crap.

Yeah, but the issue is an international coalition helping the Iraqis. The Iraqis helping themselves goes without saying (not counting of course when they are blowing each other up)

Quote[/b] ]Also, that lady put Edwards on the spot about France and Germany decision about Iraq. Furthermore, why did not Cheney talk about the "NATO" role for Iraq?

Because there is no NATO role for Iraq. The only thing NATO could agree on was sending people down to evaluate the possibility of training Iraqi forces in Iraq. The issue at hand was if some form of limited training would take place in Iraq or abroad. US wanted in Iraq, while the others (Europeans) said no way. And they "solved" the difference by side stepping it. The final agreement was that they would evaluate it and decide later.

brgnorway:

Quote[/b] ]

However, I was more than concerned about his views on the Israeli-palestinian conflict!

Yeah, but I don't think it is to be taken seriously. The republicans are talking about medicare, education and social security. The democrats are talking about "marriage is between a man and a wooman", "we shall hunt the terrorists down", tax cuts and of course strongly pro-Israel.

- They're trying to pick undecided voters that are leaning to the other side.

[Bernadotte 0]

The republicans are talking about medicare, education and social security. The democrats are talking about "marriage is between a man and a wooman", "we shall hunt the terrorists down", tax cuts and of course strongly pro-Israel.

I think you got them reversed, no?  

I actually slept last night, so I'll tune into a CNN rebroadcast in a little while.  I expect Cheney to seek every opportunity to emphasise the length of his political experience.  Edwards will likely argue that it's not length that matters most, but what you do with it.

[shinRaiden 0]

Organized labor complicent in attempting to strong-arm the process, and in Florida of all places:

Miami Herald - AP

Quote[/b] ]

Dozens of union activists showed up at the Bush-Cheney campaign offices in Miami, Orlando and Tampa to deliver postcards from people opposed to the Bush administration regulations that they claim would threaten the overtime payments of chefs, nurses, police officers, journalists, athletic trainers, lower-level computer employees.

Similar protests organized by labor unions occurred in other cities around the nation.

A criminal complaint was filed with the Orlando Police Department after Rhyan Metzler, a field director for the Republican Party of Florida in Orlando, said his wrist was sprained while he was trying to stop protesters from getting through the office door. About 50 of the 120 protesters in Orlando got into the office.

The head of another campaign worker was slammed against the glass door, Metzler said.

"I locked the door to keep them from coming in. I asked them to leave," Metzler said. "I told them they were trespassing, that I had called the police and that if they didn't leave I would have them prosecuted."

...

Lenny Alvicar, spokesman for the Bush-Cheney campaign in Miami, said about 20 volunteers, including elderly people working phone banks, were at the headquarters when the union workers came inside. The protesters chanted, tried to put stickers on the walls and removed campaign signs. Other protesters blocked the street outside, he said.

"It was pushing, it was intimidation," Alvicar said. "In some cases just more than disruptive but in fact violently intimidating volunteers."

Countered South Florida AFL-CIO president Fred Frost: "It was as civil as it gets."

In Tampa, about three dozen protesters crowded into the second-floor office of the local Bush-Cheney headquarters where three elderly volunteers, two interns and a campaign staffer were working at the time, said Wes Maddox, a Bush-Cheney volunteer.

This is not something new, Bob Hasegawa, a candidate for the Washington state Legislature bragged about this kind of cozy relationships leading up to the Seattle WTO riots:

University of Washington - WTO History project

Quote[/b] ]

But on the top of our mission statement is to support campaigns such as what we were doing against the WTO. So it was a personal mission but it was also fulfilling the mission of the organization. As far as promoting social justice and that sort of thing, accountability, social accountability, I guess the Local got involved quite early on.

...

I don’t see any sort of institutionalized relationship having been developed as a result of all this. I would love to see sort of a...I don’t know what you would call it...maybe even a Green Party, so to speak, develop as a result of this.

...

I also have to say that President Sweeney did the right thing by supporting Judd on this deal (described in the next quote block). So once Sweeney finally gave it the last minute blessing. Then that made it okay for some of the nay sayers to then say, “Okay, let’s move forward on it.â€

...

I just shouted after that, “All of you who want to march into the No Protest Zone, meet right over here.â€

We got a group of about 200 to 300 people assembled there. What we did was we put a plan together right then and there to get arrested. To break the No Protest Zone. So there was King County Council Member Brian Derdowski was with us. He we had put a plan together. Several hundred people, we collectively made this plan. It was pretty incredible actually, that he was going to bust the No Protest Zone incognito and they were going to leave him alone.

Because he was in a suit, right. And the rest of us were going to go in with our Union garb and or other signs identifying us as protesters and get arrested. It was really cool because we had this French group was with us and they were chanting in French and they had a little makeshift drum corps and a huge banner. It was really cool.

...

Yeah, my Staff Director and my Executive Secretary both were on the Capitol Hill deal. So they were the lead organizers up there when … you go into these places and the people on the streets were crying for leadership. So whenever they saw a Union jacket, they assumed, “You know how to organize.†For instance, when I was talking about when we were marching into the No Protest Zone, but then we got caught up in that mass sweep of people who were panicking and moving from our left to our right. I heard several people call out and say that, “The Union people are here, stop, don’t panic, let the Unions lead us.â€

I heard different people trying to pass that message, but, it was a general panic in that crowd, so you don’t listen to anything once you get into that frame of mind. But that same scene, I think that people look to Labor for leadership. So when Steve and Mike got into Capitol Hill, it was the same scenario. They organized the community people who were turning out on the streets, incensed at the fact that the police would actually invade their neighborhood like that. And organized the neighborhood people there. It was really funny. Brian Derdowski was there as well.

The police didn't invade their neighborhood, they were escorting the protesters out of an area declared under martial law by due process to the location of the protestor's choosing. Only when the police were loading up to return to downtown did the protesters initiate an assault on the officers, assisted by the Capitol Hill hoodlums.

[Bernadotte 0]

A Muslim with even an average amount of faith is repulsed by American popular culture (And what it says about American values and ideas).

Don't be such a bigot.  You certainly don't have to be a Muslim to be "repulsed by American popular culture (And what it says about American values and ideas)."

And John Kerry has a 20 year record of voting against giving the military more advanced technology. The AH-64, the Tomahawk, and many other modernizations have been on his hit list.

These weapons systems were mentioned as very minor parts of 2 extensive defence budget bills that Kerry opposed along with a number of Republicans.  In fact, around the same time as those votes Defence Secretary Dick Cheney was telling the Senate the following:

Quote[/b] ]"Overall, since I've been Secretary, we will have taken the five-year defense program down by well over $300 billion. That's the peace dividend. And now we're adding to that another $50 billion of so-called peace dividend."

Cheney then told the congress the following:

Quote[/b] ]"Congress has let me cancel a few programs. But you've squabbled and sometimes bickered and horse-traded and ended up forcing me to spend money on weapons that don't fill a vital need in these times of tight budgets and new requirements. You've directed me to buy more M1s, F14s, and F16s-all great systems but we have enough of them."

Oh the irony.  But people like you keep falling for it.  

[shinRaiden 0]

Hey, I'm what the mainstream would consider a Right-Wing fundamentalist kook, and I agree with the imams that pop culture is screwed up, but I disagree in that I believe jihad is to be dogmatical, not with sticks and stones.

I spent a few months in the ME, and there was definately a double-mindset on that. You have people wearing nike and levi's, and say they want their kids to go to America and get an education and opportunities. Then they turn around and say that maybe not, based on all the crap they see on TV. At least they have the gumption to call it for what it is. I disagree on the the recommended courses of action though.

[Balschoiw 0]

For anyone like me who hasn´t seen the debate live, here is the transcript:

Transcript From the Vice Presidential Debate

[Bernadotte 0]

... factcheck.com is a soros site...

Billybob, what do you have against George Soros?

And let me warn you against bullshitting because I've been closely following the activities of George Soros ever since I met him, about 12 years ago.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Well the polls gave the debate win to Edwards so the Democrats continue their winning Streak.

Quote[/b] ]And The Winner Is ... Edwards

(CBS) John Edwards continued the Democratic ticket’s winning streak in Tuesday night's vice presidential debate. He was judged the winner by uncommitted voters who watched the debate, just as John Kerry was last week.

Forty-one percent of these uncommitted debate watchers said Edwards won the encounter, while 28 percent chose Vice President Dick Cheney. Another 31 percent thought it was a tie.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories....8.shtml

On an Amusing note see CNN's Paul Begala's Blog on the Debate.

Quote[/b] ]Darth Cheney warns the world

Cheney's closing statement, after Edwards' personal story, was perfunctory.

You half expect him to open the window and yell, "Hey you kids, get off my lawn!"

Where Cheney's in his element is when he's dark. He positively glows when he talks about the potential for a nuclear attack on America. Grrrrr...we're all gonna die....grrrr....the terrorists are coming....grrrr....only my light saber can save you.

Does not compute

Posted: 10:46 p.m.

A slight glitch on the master circuit for Vice President Data. He seemed befuddled when Edwards hammered the GOP for being too close to corporations. Said he hardly knew where to begin.

This is Edwards' long suit -- just as experience is Cheney's. His summation was evocative and clear: four more years of the same versus a plan for the future. Nice job.

You ought to know about flip-flops

Posted: 10:43 p.m.

Edwards is listing Bush's flip-flops -- something one of the smartest guys I know has been begging Kerry and Edwards to do for some time. What will Cheney do?

a) Defend Bush on the flip-flop charge;

b) Attack Kerry for flip-flopping;

c) Turn up the juice on the electrodes he secretly implanted in Edwards' chair.

Ten-Hut!

Posted: 10:40 p.m.

Cheney's hunching over so far that his microphone is scratching on his coat and muffling his voice, which already sounds like his mouth is full of crackers.

Straighten up, Dick. What is it with Republicans slouching? Didn't they learn anything in combat? Oh, sorry.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/blog/10/05/begala.blog/

Kind Regards Walker

[Bernadotte 0]

Ok, I've just seen the VP debate.

I counted about 2 or 3 times that Cheney said, "Well Gwen, I believe my record speaks for itself" instead of responding to Edward's accusations.  What the hell kind of debating tactic is that?

And what fool could swallow Cheney's argument that Iraqi victims should be included in coalition casualty statistics?

I know that Cheney voted against the Equal Rights Amendment, against busing to desegregate public schools, against abortion even in cases of rape or incest, against a holiday for Martin Luther King, but I didn't know that he voted against a resolution calling for the release of Nelson Mandela in South Africa.  If last week's debate moderator could ask Kerry about the comments he made to Congress in his 20s then they at least should have brought up the way Cheney actually voted in Congress in his 30s.

All in all I was disappointed with Cheney's arrogant replies (or lack of replies) and Edwards' populist rhetoric.

[kerosene 0]

I think Cheney had plenty of company on that vote, a lot of people voted against that resolution didnt they? The ANC were classed as a terrorist organisation once? Plus the U.S was backing South Africa against Angloa, etc.

[denoir 0]

The republicans are talking about medicare, education and social security. The democrats are talking about "marriage is between a man and a wooman", "we shall hunt the terrorists down", tax cuts and of course strongly pro-Israel.

I think you got them reversed, no?  

No.

The point I was trying to make is that both sides are trying to pick votes that they don't traditionally get.

[Apollo 0]

It would not have been the first time that an US ellection had been a dirty mud slinging affair ,but i am probably not the only one that notice's that this year it's really extreme ,over the top really.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Billybob, what do you have against George Soros?  

And let me warn you against bullshitting because I've been closely following the activities of George Soros ever since I met him, about 12 years ago.

Let me help you....

www.factcheck.com redirects you to georgeosoros.com and on the front page is anti-bush stuff. Furthermore, it is no secret that Soros does not like Bush and is pouring millions in to anti-bush groups. Next time, check the site before posting....

Quote[/b] ]

Hi all

Well the polls gave the debate win to Edwards so the Democrats continue their winning Streak.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/05/debate.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]

Polls declare different victors in VP debate

Cheney, Edwards debate wide-ranging issues

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 Posted: 8:24 AM EDT (1224 GMT)

CLEVELAND, Ohio (CNN) -- Early polls indicated differing reactions to Tuesday night's debate between Vice President Dick Cheney and Democratic vice presidential nominee Sen. John Edwards.

An ABC News snap poll showed Cheney the winner, aided by a more-Republican audience, while a CBS News poll among undecided voters showed the opposite.

Cheney and Edwards engaged in a frequently pointed, though civil, discussion on Iraq, the war on terror, Afghanistan, same-sex marriage and malpractice liability caps.

In their only scheduled debate, Edwards charged that the Bush administration wasn't being candid and Cheney attacked the Democratic ticket's resolve and credibility.

Moderator Gwen Ifill's first question -- to Cheney -- was about the war in Iraq. Cheney said the world is safer today because of the war and the arrest of Saddam Hussein. He said if he had it to do all over again, he would recommend that the U.S. invade Iraq and remove Saddam from power.

"It's important to look at all of our developments in Iraq within the broader context of the global war on terror," Cheney said.

Edwards' response was pointed.

"Mr. Vice President, you are still not being straight with the American people," he said.

"I mean, the reality you and George Bush continue to tell people, first, that things are going well in Iraq -- the American people don't need us to explain this to them, they see it on their television every single day."

According to an ABC poll, 43 percent of registered voters said Cheney won, 35 percent gave the win to Edwards, and 19 percent called it a tie. Thirty-eight percent of the viewers were Republicans, 31 percent Democrats, the rest independents. The phone survey was conducted among a random sample of 509 registered voters who watched the debate.

CBS News' poll specifically focused on uncommitted voters and found 41 percent deemed Edwards the winner, 28 percent chose Cheney, and 31 percent said it was a tie. CBS based its poll on a "nationally representative sample of 178 debate watchers ... who are either undecided about who to vote for or who have a preference but say they could still change their minds."

Each side claimed victory immediately after the face-off. Mary Beth Cahill, Kerry's campaign manager, said she thought Edwards won.

"I think that people looking at [Edwards tonight] found him tremendously convincing," she said.

Ken Mehlman, Bush's campaign manager, disagreed.

"I thought it was a great debate, and I thought the vice president won."

Voters' reactions varied.

"I heard far more definitive answers than I heard from the previous debate between our presidential candidates," said Paul Jacobs of Ohio. 'I still heard too much 'he said, she said, you said' accusations, but there were some definitive answers to specific questions."

Felicia Dotson said she was disappointed by the debate on Iraq.

"They talked a lot about the war, but I would have liked to hear more about how and when we're going to pull the troops out and not how we got there," she said.

   

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]Billybob, what do you have against George Soros?

Let me help you....

www.factcheck.com redirects you to georgeosoros.com and on the front page is anti-bush stuff. Furthermore, it is no secret that Soros does not like Bush and is pouring millions in to anti-bush groups. Next time, check the site before posting....

That's it?

You discard everything the man has to say or has ever done because he has Bush on his hit list?

How obtuse.

[Akira 0]

I notice that ol' billybob isn't posting the story on his favorite site, the Drudge Report (link to ABC).

States (and has vid caps) that Cheney and Edwards met three times despite Cheney claiming they never met before last night. Rack up another lie for Darth Cheney.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled sling fest...

[CosmicCastaway 0]

Keep em scared

How true...

Edit: You'll need Quicktime.

[Akira 0]

Oh... and my two cents about the debate.

It was like watching Beavis And Butthead without the cool videos. They rarely said anything new, or separate from their running mates.

Cheney dodged questions, or, like with the question of unemployment, went off on something different. Surprisingly, he did few 30 sec extensions. I am not sure if it was a strategy to dismiss in the mind of America the points Edwards was making, or he just didn't have a reply.

Edwards made some good points, but I think it was drowned out by his inability to differentiate himself from Kerry. He made some good attacks, but Cheney made some good counter-attacks. Edwards as well went off on some different directions to the asked questions.

In the end I will give it a slight win to Cheney. The polls state there is a split of opinion on who won, and that gives a victory to the incumbants. Kerry had best win the next two substantially.

Kept waiting for him to say "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

While watching the debates it occured to me, why don't people debate like on this forum? With some of the attacks and counter-attacks, debates would be far more interesting and less a political pussyfootin' fest.

Also, I will give points to Edwards for stating that there are a number of countries with terror ties, some our allies, and asking "How many countries are we going to invade?"

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]I notice that ol' billybob isn't posting the story on his favorite site, the Drudge Report (link to ABC).

thanks....

Quote[/b] ]That's it?

You discard everything the man has to say or has ever done because he has Bush on his hit list?

How obtuse.

erm... Cheney said go to factcheck.com to get the real facts about halliburton... he actually promoted a site that is anti-bush...

Quote[/b] ]

States (and has vid caps) that Cheney and Edwards met three times despite Cheney claiming they never met before last night. Rack up another lie for Darth Cheney.

Edwards lied... your point...

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]Billybob, what do you have against George Soros?  

And let me warn you against bullshitting because I've been closely following the activities of George Soros ever since I met him, about 12 years ago.

Let me help you....

www.factcheck.com redirects you to georgeosoros.com and on the front page is anti-bush stuff. Furthermore, it is no secret that Soros does not like Bush and is pouring millions in to anti-bush groups. Next time, check the site before posting....

so how about anti-Kerry groups like swiftpets?

anyone wonder what wil happen on friday's debate? maybe Bush will come up with Cheney-esque answers?