Us presidential election 2004

[BraTTy 0]

I am not much political but I would like to say that I am from Vermont which is where Dean is from and I certainly don't have the same impression that alot of you have.And what he did to/for our state,I am glad he is outta the picture.

[denoir 0]

Here's one for Billybob, from his favourite site

Quote[/b] ]

Mr. Bush and His 10 Ever-Changing Different Positions on Iraq: "A flip and a flop and now just a flop."

Dear Mr. Bush,

I am so confused. Where exactly do you stand on the issue of Iraq? You, your Dad, Rummy, Condi, Colin, and Wolfie -- you have all changed your minds so many times, I am out of breath just trying to keep up with you!

Which of these 10 positions that you, your family and your cabinet have taken over the years represents your CURRENT thinking:

1983-88: WE LOVE SADDAM. On December 19, 1983, Donald Rumsfeld was sent by your dad and Mr. Reagan to go and have a friendly meeting with Saddam Hussein, the dictator of Iraq. Rummy looked so happy in the picture. Just twelve days after this visit, Saddam gassed thousands of Iranian troops. Your dad and Rummy seemed pretty happy with the results because ‘The Donald R.’ went back to have another chummy hang-out with Saddam’s right-hand man, Tariq Aziz, just four months later. All of this resulted in the U.S. providing credits and loans to Iraq that enabled Saddam to buy billions of dollars worth of weapons and chemical agents. The Washington Post reported that your dad and Reagan let it be known to their Arab allies that the Reagan/Bush administration wanted Iraq to win its war with Iran and anyone who helped Saddam accomplish this was a friend of ours.

1990: WE HATE SADDAM. In 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait, your dad and his defense secretary, Dick Cheney, decided they didn't like Saddam anymore so they attacked Iraq and returned Kuwait to its rightful dictators.

1991: WE WANT SADDAM TO LIVE. After the war, your dad and Cheney and Colin Powell told the Shiites to rise up against Saddam and we would support them. So they rose up. But then we changed our minds. When the Shiites rose up against Saddam, the Bush inner circle changed its mind and decided NOT to help the Shiites. Thus, they were massacred by Saddam.

1998: WE WANT SADDAM TO DIE. In 1998, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and others, as part of the Project for the New American Century, wrote an open letter to President Clinton insisting he invade and topple Saddam Hussein.

2000: WE DON'T BELIEVE IN WAR AND NATION BUILDING. Just three years later, during your debate with Al Gore in the 2000 election, when asked by the moderator Jim Lehrer where you stood when it came to using force for regime change, you turned out to be a downright pacifist:

“I--I would take the use of force very seriously. I would be guarded in my approach. I don't think we can be all things to all people in the world. I think we've got to be very careful when we commit our troops. The vice president [Al Gore] and I have a disagreement about the use of troops. He believes in nation building. I--I would be very careful about using our troops as nation builders. I believe the role of the military is to fight and win war and, therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place. And so I take my--I take my--my responsibility seriously.†--October 3, 2000

2001 (early): WE DON'T BELIEVE SADDAM IS A THREAT. When you took office in 2001, you sent your Secretary of State, Colin Powell, and your National Security Advisor, Condoleezza Rice, in front of the cameras to assure the American people they need not worry about Saddam Hussein. Here is what they said:

Powell: “We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they have directed that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was 10 years ago when we began it. And frankly, they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors.†--February 24, 2001

Rice: “But in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let's remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt.†--July 29, 2001

2001 (late): WE BELIEVE SADDAM IS GOING TO KILL US! Just a few months later, in the hours and days after the 9/11 tragedy, you had no interest in going after Osama bin Laden. You wanted only to bomb Iraq and kill Saddam and you then told all of America we were under imminent threat because weapons of mass destruction were coming our way. You led the American people to believe that Saddam had something to do with Osama and 9/11. Without the UN's sanction, you broke international law and invaded Iraq.

2003: WE DON’T BELIEVE SADDAM IS GOING TO KILL US. After no WMDs were found, you changed your mind about why you said we needed to invade, coming up with a brand new after-the-fact reason -- we started this war so we could have regime change, liberate Iraq and give the Iraqis democracy!

2003: “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!†Yes, everyone saw you say it -- in costume, no less!

2004: OOPS. MISSION NOT ACCOMPLISHED! Now you call the Iraq invasion a "catastrophic success." That's what you called it this month. Over a thousand U.S. soldiers have died, Iraq is in a state of total chaos where no one is safe, and you have no clue how to get us out of there.

Mr. Bush, please tell us -- when will you change your mind again?

I know you hate the words "flip" and "flop," so I won't use them both on you. In fact, I'll use just one: Flop. That is what you are. A huge, colossal flop. The war is a flop, your advisors and the "intelligence" they gave you is a flop, and now we are all a flop to the rest of the world. Flop. Flop. Flop.

And you have the audacity to criticize John Kerry with what you call the "many positions" he has taken on Iraq. By my count, he has taken only one: He believed you. That was his position. You told him and the rest of congress that Saddam had WMDs. So he -- and the vast majority of Americans, even those who didn't vote for you -- believed you. You see, Americans, like John Kerry, want to live in a country where they can believe their president.

That was the one, single position John Kerry took. He didn't support the war, he supported YOU. And YOU let him and this great country down. And that is why tens of millions can't wait to get to the polls on Election Day -- to remove a major, catastrophic flop from our dear, beloved White House -- to stop all the flipping you and your men have done, flipping us and the rest of the world off.

We can't take another minute of it.

Yours,

Michael Moore

[Bernadotte 0]

In that case Kerry and his campaign are morons. That is the card they should have played "Bush mislead the Ameircan people and Congress. I voted for authorizing the war because the Bush Administration said "only after..." etc etc

But like you said:

Now I fully understand that some 80% of Americans supported the war, so it puts him in a difficult position.

Any semi-competent Democratic candidate should be with minimal effort be dancing on Bush's political grave..

Patience.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Rummy looked so happy in the picture.

You don't see many political operatives frowning around the leaders of other countries, do you? No, it was part of Rummy's job to look pleasant.

Quote[/b] ]The Washington Post reported that your dad and Reagan let it be known to their Arab allies that the Reagan/Bush administration wanted Iraq to win its war with Iran and anyone who helped Saddam accomplish this was a friend of ours.

And what naughty things had Iran done recently? They're still on the Shit List, they just got lowered to a position below Hussein's Iraq. In case anyone didn't notice, Bush's "Axis Of Evil" speech wasn't exactly charitable to Iran. It's just that instead of rooting for one of them, we decided to be egalitarian and hate both of them.

Quote[/b] ]1990: WE HATE SADDAM. In 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait, your dad and his defense secretary, Dick Cheney, decided they didn't like Saddam anymore so they attacked Iraq and returned Kuwait to its rightful dictators.

Coincidentally, so did Afghanistan, Argentina, Australia, Bangladesh, Belgium, Canada, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Honduras, Italy, Morocco, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Niger, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Senegal, South Korea, Spain, Syria, the United Kingdom, and a smattering of assorted Arab nations.

Quote[/b] ]1991: WE WANT SADDAM TO LIVE. After the war, your dad and Cheney and Colin Powell told the Shiites to rise up against Saddam and we would support them. So they rose up. But then we changed our minds. When the Shiites rose up against Saddam, the Bush inner circle changed its mind and decided NOT to help the Shiites. Thus, they were massacred by Saddam.

More like "THE FIRST BUSH ADMINISTRATION DIDN'T HAVE THE STOMACH FOR A FULL-FLEDGED OCCUPATION OF IRAQ"

Quote[/b] ]2000: WE DON'T BELIEVE IN WAR AND NATION BUILDING

We don't believe in war? "I believe the role of the military is to fight and win war and, therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place" certainly sounds like he believed in preemptive warfare.

Quote[/b] ]Without the UN's sanction

But you must give Bush some credit, he did have a teensy little UN resolution.

Quote[/b] ]2001 (early): WE DON'T BELIEVE SADDAM IS A THREAT

And then they presumably stepped up intelligence measures after 9/11 . Said measures then turned up what appeared to be evidence of WMD construction and definite evidence (Confirmed by the 9/11 Report) that Hussein and Al Qaeda were close to becoming the international version of friends-with-benefits.

Quote[/b] ]Just a few months later, in the hours and days after the 9/11 tragedy, you had no interest in going after Osama bin Laden.

I'm sure the Taliban would disagree with this statement.

Quote[/b] ]After no WMDs were found, you changed your mind about why you said we needed to invade, coming up with a brand new after-the-fact reason -- we started this war so we could have regime change, liberate Iraq and give the Iraqis democracy!

No, it was more of a way of saying "We may have screwed the pooch here, but at least we did some good by getting rid of Hussein". John Kerry himself said that ridding the world of Hussein was indisputably a good thing.

Quote[/b] ]2003: “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!â€

Yep, Saddam's regular forces had been crushed. Now on to Mission 2.

Quote[/b] ]Over a thousand U.S. soldiers have died, Iraq is in a state of total chaos where no one is safe, and you have no clue how to get us out of there.

Of course, the terrorists/insurgents are taking much more of whalloping than the US forces. Al-Sadr's forces alone have suffered thousands killed. Of course there is progress, it's just that the media wouldn't want to report it when they could instead show explosions and flame.

Quote[/b] ]He didn't support the war, he supported YOU.

Which is why he later said that even with our current intelligence about WMDs, he would have voted for the war. Which makes Kerry a rather shameless Bush-bootlicker.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Patience.

Patience? It's almost October, Kerry has little more than a month to get ahead. I'd say it's time to drop the patience act and time to start sprinting.

[russin 0]

BUSH BUSH BUSH 4 more years !!!!!!

[turms 0]

BUSH BUSH BUSH 4 more years !!!!!!  

Why?

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Why?

1. The expression on Walker's face.

2. The expression on Michael Moore's face.

3. Because we need to boost the consumption of Haties (The Official Cereal Of Hatetriots)

4. Because Florida 2000 was just the beginning! Mwahahahaha!

5. Because electing Bush now gives Hillary a shot in 2008 .

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Why?

1. To make Akira move

2. To make Walker puke

3. To piss off the superior Europeans

4. He is not John F. Kerry

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]2. To make Walker puke

I was thinking that Walker would experience explosive diarrhea, followed by incoherent gibbering and sobbing. Want to place a bet on it ?

Actually, a more likely outcome would be him coming onto the forums and posting a rage-choked accusation towards "NeoConMen" for rigging the election. I'll offer 50% odds that doing a Google search for the contents of this post would reveal that it was copied verbatim from Moore's post-election note and/or suicide note.

Quote[/b] ]He is not John F. Kerry

I thought you received the note from the Limbaugh Wing of VRWC headquarters (Motto: "Neocons? What neocons? By the way, would you mind getting into this unmarked van?"). We're now supposed to refer to Kerry as "John F'ing Kerry", after his use of the F-bomb in an interview.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]I thought you received the note from the Limbaugh Wing of VRWC headquarters (Motto: "Neocons? What neocons? By the way, would you mind getting into this unmarked van?"). We're now supposed to refer to Kerry as "John F'ing Kerry", after his use of the F-bomb in an interview.

That is sercet....  I will have to report you to the leader...Please wait for the van outside of your house...  

Anyway, it seems Heinz can predict the future.... must be buying weed from Mrs. Bush...

http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2004/09/20/daily58.html

Quote[/b] ]LATEST NEWS

1:48 PM MST Thursday

Heinz Kerry helps Democrats raise $1M at Phoenix event

Mike Sunnucks

The Business Journal

Arizona Democrats raked in more than $1 million Wednesday night at a fund-raiser headlined by Teresa Heinz Kerry.

Heinz Kerry criticized the Bush administration on tax cuts, Iraq and the war on terrorism at the event, which was held at the Arizona Biltmore Resort & Spa.

In regard to the hunt for terror leader Osama Bin Laden, Heinz Kerry said she could see the al-Qaida chief being caught before the November election.

"I wouldn't be surprised if he appeared in the next month," said Heinz Kerry, alluding to a possible capture by United States and allied forces before election day.

The spouse of Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry also hit President Bush on Iraq, saying it should not be equated with anti-terrorism efforts and that the current administration chose to create a "hotbed for terrorism" in Iraq when dictator Saddam Hussein did not pose an immediate threat. Heinz Kerry also said she agrees with her husband that a military draft may be reinstated under Bush.

She said she was embarrassed to receive tax cuts advocated by Bush and supports her husband's efforts to roll them back for higher incomes and use those funds for education, health care and deficit reduction.

Bush Southwestern campaign spokesman Danny Diaz hit the Kerry campaign on both the Iraq and draft issues. Diaz said the Kerry camp is "irresponsible" for bringing up the draft issue and contends the Democrat is doing it for political gain.

Diaz also criticized Kerry for shifting positions on Iraq on the campaign trail after voting to authorize military action in 2002.

"Arizonans need a president they can count on, a leader who knows what he believes, and after reading the morning's paper, doesn't shift his stance to accommodate the opposition," Diaz said.

The Biltmore event was the largest single fund-raising event by state Democrats, displaying the prowess on that front by state party chairman Jim Pederson and Gov. Janet Napolitano.

I guess Kerry still must be talking to those sercet leaders and must of gotten a deal with them for some european troops in return for some $$. Why are still saying that roll back is going to make everything right and pay for everything... They must be drinking the same water has Bush is..

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]"I wouldn't be surprised if he appeared in the next month," said Heinz Kerry, alluding to a possible capture by United States and allied forces before election day.

Of course, with all of the bombing we did, he may be "appearing" while being carried inside a small Tupperware container.

[Schoeler 0]

I expect both of you to show up for duty when your draft number is called, you being after all the more superior patriots here as you continually self-profess.

There is no running to Canada anymore.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]I expect both of you to show up for duty when your draft number is called, you being after all the more superior patriots here as you continually self-profess.

No draft for me. I'm going to finish off high school and then volunteer, whether or not a draft is in place.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]I expect both of you to show up for duty when your draft number is called, you being after all the more superior patriots here as you continually self-profess.

No draft for me. I'm going to finish off high school and then volunteer, whether or not a draft is in place.

Quote[/b] ]1. To make Akira move

2. To make Walker puke

3. To piss off the superior Europeans

4. He is not John F. Kerry

Quote[/b] ]. The expression on Walker's face.

2. The expression on Michael Moore's face.

3. Because we need to boost the consumption of Haties (The Official Cereal Of Hatetriots)

4. Because Florida 2000 was just the beginning! Mwahahahaha!

5. Because electing Bush now gives Hillary a shot in 2008 .

Hmmm...maybe I will vote for Bush. So then when you volunteer and Bush sends you off to Iran(or even better, North Korea), I can see the look on your idiotic face as you stand in the middle of the desert surrounded by millions of pissed off Arabs (or hopefully in the mountains or jungle surrounded by lots of indoctrinated REALLY pissed off Koreans).

The beauty of it being that you are going right after HS, making you nothing other than the shit kicking front line dumbass grunt. There you can see Bush's policy in all its glory as your friends are decimated around you, and their guts all over you BDUs.

Ah yes. Then you can put your money where your mouth is instead of spouting off with your idiotic pre-pubscent bullshit.

Unless of course you are some kind of chicken shit about what you keep throwing around here, and instead join the Navy or something, far off from true harm.

Please. By all means send me a postcard....

And never you fear. Billybob will be safe at home schleppin' Mary Jane defending your cause in forums like this all over the dangerous Net.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]Just a few months later, in the hours and days after the 9/11 tragedy, you had no interest in going after Osama bin Laden.

I'm sure the Taliban would disagree with this statement.

Yeah, you beat up his landlord. That must have hurt his feelings!

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]2003: “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!â€

Yep, Saddam's regular forces had been crushed. Now on to Mission 2.

And how do you exlplain away the "end of major combat"?

Quote[/b] ]And then they presumably stepped up intelligence measures after 9/11 . Said measures then turned up what appeared to be evidence of WMD construction and definite evidence (Confirmed by the 9/11 Report) that Hussein and Al Qaeda were close to becoming the international version of friends-with-benefits.

On the contrary, the 9/11 report confirmed that there was no 9/11 - Saddam connection, and no AQ-Saddam connection. What it did however confirm:

[*]Attorney General John Ashcroft told acting FBI director Thomas Pickard that he did not want to hear anything more about terrorist threats.  Confirmed, Commission Report at p. 265

[*]After Bush was informed of the first plane hitting the World Trade Center, he went ahead with his classroom event.  After Bush was informed that the nation was under attack after the second plane hit, Bush stayed in the classroom for nearly seven more minutes, continuing to read with the children. Confirmed, Commission Report at pp. 35, 38-39.

[*]Bush failed to have even one meeting to discuss the threat of terrorism with his head of counterterrorism Richard Clarke.  Confirmed, Commission Report at p. 201.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]He didn't support the war, he supported YOU.

Which is why he later said that even with our current intelligence about WMDs, he would have voted for the war. Which makes Kerry a rather shameless Bush-bootlicker.

As Bernadotte pointed out, authorized force under the condition that all other options were exhausted and with full UN support.

billybob

Quote[/b] ]3. To piss off the superior Europeans

Don't kid yourself, Bush re-elected would not be bad for us at all. If you havn't noticed during Bush, EU has leapfrogged the US in economic tems (industry,commerce,GDP,GDP/capita etc). The USD is toilet-paper relative the €. It would really not break my heart to see that trend continue.

Plus, Bush is doing wonders for the common European identity. He is a common bad guy to dislike. And not to mention that while Bush is in power the US will remain out in the cold internationally, which again allows Europe to have a dominant position.

Bush losing would be nice in terms of idiots getting disappointed but in actual political and economic terms, I think Europe would benefit from Bush. He screws your economy, which is mostly good for us, he helps the process of building a European identity (we really all dislike him) and internationally he is pretty much contained right now (unlikely that he can start another war - the US simply doesn't have the military resources).

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]No draft for me. I'm going to finish off high school and then volunteer, whether or not a draft is in place.

Ah I remember when I was so young and enthusiastic. Luckily one usually gets over it by aging.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Unless of course you are some kind of chicken shit about what you keep throwing around here, and instead join the Navy or something, far off from true harm.

I just love what you're insinuating about Kerry's "heroic" volunteering.

Quote[/b] ]Ah yes. Then you can put your money where your mouth is instead of spouting off with your idiotic pre-pubscent bullshit.

1. I don't know about the rate that you matured at (And your cries of "I hope you die you stupid idiot!" are starting to make me wonder), but most high schoolers aren't pre-pubescent.

2. If I maintain a good GPA here, I'll consider going to a service academy.

Quote[/b] ]Ah I remember when I was so young and enthusiastic. Luckily one usually gets over it by aging.

Well, my pops was waiting to get drafted, and I can remember at least four people from my family who served in World War II.

Also, considering that the US military is an AVF, that's a lot of people who "aren't getting over it".

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]

I just love what you're insinuating about Kerry's "heroic" volunteering.

You know that thing inside your head that keeps banging around? Thats your brain. Use it.

Kerry volunteered for river boats that were indeed on the front line.

Last time I checked there weren't too many river boats in Fallujah and Najaf.

Quote[/b] ]1. I don't know about the rate that you matured at, but most high schoolers aren't pre-pubescent.

And I was a lot smarter than you in my HS years obviously too. Cause I certainly didn't spout out the inane BS you do.

Quote[/b] ]Well, my pops was waiting to get drafted, and I can remember at least four people from my family who served in World War II.

Point being? My Dad served in Vietnam (volunteered). All my grandfathers and great uncles served in WW2 (and not to be sexist, my grandmothers did as well!) and my great great grandfather served in WW1.

Whats that got to do with NOW.

Quote[/b] ]

Also, considering that the US military is an AVF, that's a lot of people who "aren't getting over it".

No. They are.

Or maybe you just don't care to read the articles in the Iraq thread, or watch the interviews televised on non-Fox related news.

They are all pretty tired of seeing their friends die and get maimed.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Billybob will be safe at home schleppin' Mary Jane defending your cause in forums like this all over the dangerous Net.

Should I laugh or....

Quote[/b] ]I expect both of you to show up for duty when your draft number is called, you being after all the more superior patriots here as you continually self-profess.

I will show up if there is a draft. I carry my selective service registration acknowledgment card with me all the time....

[xawery 0]

Quote[/b] ]

I just love what you're insinuating about Kerry's "heroic" volunteering.

You know that thing inside your head that keeps banging around? Thats your brain. Use it.

Kerry volunteered for river boats that were indeed on the front line.

Last time I checked there weren't too many river boats in Fallujah and Najaf.

I have to add a small remark to this statement: Kerry volunteered for the river boats because up until then, they were merely used for patrolling, not aggressive action. He stated himself that he did not want to get involved in actual fighting. Entirely normal when one considers the fact that Kerry opposed the war from the start; I wouldn't want to get involved in something I didn't believe in either.

But, as it happened, by the time Kerry became commander of the two swiftboats, Operation SEALORD had been launched by admiral Elmo Zumwalt. This operation included an aggressive presence of patrol boats in VC-dominated territory, hence Kerry's combat experience.

On a different note, I agree with Denoir: four more years of Bush would be disastrous for the US, but quite beneficial for the EU. First of all, it would loosen the already shoddy atlantic ties, thus allowing for more bold European-centered action. Take, for example, the creation of the European Gendarmerie Force or the EU-battlegroups. A sign of European-level cooperation that would have been rather unlikely until recently. Of course, the majority of the politicians involved are shitting their trousers in fear of upsetting the NATO, but it's a first step. Until recently, any supra-national military units outside the NATO would have been unthinkable.

Second, the economy. The EU is obviously becoming a better place to invest in at the expense of the US. The strengthening Euro isn't that much of a blessing though: it makes our exports more expensive and thus makes the EU less competitive. Also, do not forget that the US is a major market and a source of income of many EU companies. A weaker dollar means worse results.

Still, a more robust banking system and a population that does not believe in spending money before actually having earned it (have you ever seen a SINGLE debit card in the US?) are things to be satisified with.

In other words, I am not too worried about the continents drifting further apart. That's also why Bush getting elected in the first place didn't worry me much: not the sharpest tool in the shed, but at least he's planning on adopting an introvert policy. Sadly, things didn't work out...

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ] The strengthening Euro isn't that much of a blessing though: it makes our exports more expensive and thus makes the EU less competitive.

Yeah but it makes imports cheaper ,more importantly cheaper imports of raw resources like oil are a nice benifit especially if you observe the recent rises of oil prices.

[Schoeler 0]

I have to add a small remark to this statement: Kerry volunteered for the river boats because up until then, they were merely used for patrolling, not aggressive action. He stated himself that he did not want to get involved in actual fighting. Entirely normal when one considers the fact that Kerry opposed the war from the start; I wouldn't want to get involved in something I didn't believe in either.

That is swifboat propaganda, and has been proved wrong by almost every respected news outlet in the world.

Read Kerry's transfer request for direct evidence that refutes this.

[russin 0]

BUSH BUSH BUSH 4 more years !!!!!!  

Why?

cause bush doesn't put up with terrorrist crap and takes the fight to there home front where the fight should be it's about time they did something about these maggots

[EiZei 0]

BUSH BUSH BUSH 4 more years !!!!!!

Why?

cause bush doesn't put up with terrorrist crap and takes the fight to there home front where the fight should be it's about time they did something about these maggots

Nice to see well thought out and informed political opinions amongst Bush supporters.