The Iraq thread 3

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

savage time starts. It is only a question of time untill war turns even most sensitive person into a dull killing-machine. You've made it soldier!

Another simillarity with Vietnam. Suddenly the people that you are supposed to protect are the ones you kill.

And

A justice system that promised to prosecute war criminals ends up protecting them.

[MLF 0]

Also to anyone who thinks that American soldiers would never shoot an apparently unarmed man, here's a good article on the realities of war from a Marine's perspective:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....7&ncid=

Man, that's messed up. I don't know - they've must have gone through hell in Fallujah. But still..

From the story:

Quote[/b] ]When Deady (the soldier who shot the unarmed man) woke up in a Tijuana, Mexico jail after busting into a candy store drunk and passing out behind the cash register, Wofford came to bail him out.

Jeeze.

Americas Finest?

Seriously, would you trust a guy like Deady to pass on the spirit of democracy? Sure. He might be good for a soldier. But as a peacekeeper, or bringer of peace? Far out!! Why are guys like this still stationed in Iraq, when quite obviously, they can only make the situation worse.

If this is the standard of what the Iraqi people have had to deal with, then no wonder they've gone hostile towards the americans.

i dunno what country your from but you being 17 i doubt you have had much experience with Alchohol, people do stupid things for fun when they are drunk and are with there mates, they egg each other on, i know i have done stupid things, you cannot judge a Soldier on his performance from one event like that. go look at Ibiza if you wanna look at the things done under the influence.

[red oct 2]

Also to anyone who thinks that American soldiers would never shoot an apparently unarmed man, here's a good article on the realities of war from a Marine's perspective:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....7&ncid=

Man, that's messed up. I don't know - they've must have gone through hell in Fallujah. But still..

From the story:

Quote[/b] ]When Deady (the soldier who shot the unarmed man) woke up in a Tijuana, Mexico jail after busting into a candy store drunk and passing out behind the cash register, Wofford came to bail him out.

Jeeze.

Americas Finest?

Seriously, would you trust a guy like Deady to pass on the spirit of democracy? Sure. He might be good for a soldier. But as a peacekeeper, or bringer of peace? Far out!! Why are guys like this still stationed in Iraq, when quite obviously, they can only make the situation worse.

If this is the standard of what the Iraqi people have had to deal with, then no wonder they've gone hostile towards the americans.

i dunno what country your from but you being 17 i doubt you have had much experience with Alchohol, people do stupid things for fun when they are drunk and are with there mates, they egg each other on, i know i have done stupid things, you cannot judge a Soldier on his performance from one event like that. go look at Ibiza if you wanna look at the things done under the influence.

i don't know what state you live in, but being drunk doesn't legitmize your actions.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

it is okay... maybe RedOct you should read the article again... it was just an iraqi who got shot. No reason to waste another thought on that. i just hope the american soldier didnt have a hangover the next day. hangovers are terrible, arent they!

[MLF 0]

Also to anyone who thinks that American soldiers would never shoot an apparently unarmed man, here's a good article on the realities of war from a Marine's perspective:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....7&ncid=

Man, that's messed up. I don't know - they've must have gone through hell in Fallujah. But still..

From the story:

Quote[/b] ]When Deady (the soldier who shot the unarmed man) woke up in a Tijuana, Mexico jail after busting into a candy store drunk and passing out behind the cash register, Wofford came to bail him out.

Jeeze.

Americas Finest?

Seriously, would you trust a guy like Deady to pass on the spirit of democracy? Sure. He might be good for a soldier. But as a peacekeeper, or bringer of peace? Far out!! Why are guys like this still stationed in Iraq, when quite obviously, they can only make the situation worse.

If this is the standard of what the Iraqi people have had to deal with, then no wonder they've gone hostile towards the americans.

i dunno what country your from but you being 17 i doubt you have had much experience with Alchohol, people do stupid things for fun when they are drunk and are with there mates, they egg each other on, i know i have done stupid things, you cannot judge a Soldier on his performance from one event like that. go look at Ibiza if you wanna look at the things done under the influence.

i don't know what state you live in, but being drunk doesn't legitmize your actions.

Im from the UK we don't have States, but ozanzac was judgin him as a person and a soldier on what he did on one night with his friends when they got drunk that is all i was merely pointing out peple did stupid things when they are drunk.

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]i don't know what state you live in, but being drunk doesn't legitmize your actions.

I know a couple of guys who are UN soldiers. I grew up with them. They are pretty good at doing stupid shit when drunk, but they are still very good peace keepers. Why? Maybe because they arent drunk when peace keeping...

These guys, when drunk, have done everything from beating people up to standing on statues and pissing down on parkbenches. I know for a fact though that they are very diligent peace keepers. A couple of them also work as security guards and they never had any complaints on them from job.

When people are drunk they do stupid things. Why else would you get drunk?

[Chill 0]

Here is a report from the front!

Americans Slaughtering Women & Children In Falluja

Americans Slaughtering Women & Children In Falluja

By Dahr Jamail

4-14-4

I knew there was very little media coverage in Falluja, and the entire city had been sealed and was suffering from collective punishment in the form of no water or electricity for several days now. With only two journalists there that I'd read and heard reports from, I felt pulled to go and witness the atrocities that were surely being committed.

With the help of some friends, we joined a small group of internationals to ride a large bus there carrying a load of humanitarian supplies, and with the hopes of bringing some of the wounded out prior to the next American onslaught, which was due to kick off at any time now.

Even leaving Baghdad now is dangerous. The military has shut down the main highway between here and Jordan. The highway, even while just outside Baghdad, is desolate and littered with destroyed fuel tanker trucks -- their smoldering shells littered the highway. We rolled past a large M-1 tank that was still burning under an overpass which had just been hit by the resistance.

At the first U.S. checkpoint the soldiers said they'd been there for 30 hours straight. After being searched, we continued along bumpy dirt roads, winding our way through parts of Abu Ghraib, steadily but slowly making our way towards besieged Falluja. While we were passing one of the small homes in Abu Ghraib, a small child yelled at the bus, "We will be mujahedeen until we die!"

We slowly worked our way back onto the highway. It was strewn with smoking fuel tankers, destroyed military tanks and armored personnel carriers, and a lorry that had been hit that was currently being looted by a nearby village, people running to and from the highway carrying away boxes. It was a scene of pure devastation, with barely any other cars on the road.

Once we turned off the highway, which the U.S. was perilously holding onto, there was no U.S. military presence visible at all as we were in mujahedeen-controlled territory. Our bus wound its way through farm roads, and each time we passed someone they would yell, "God bless you for going to Falluja!" Everyone we passed was flashing us the victory sign, waving, and giving the thumbs-up.

As we neared Falluja, there were groups of children on the sides of the road handing out water and bread to people coming into Falluja. They began literally throwing stacks of flat bread into the bus. The fellowship and community spirit was unbelievable. Everyone was yelling for us, cheering us on, groups speckled along the road.

As we neared Falluja a huge mushroom caused by a large U.S. bomb rose from the city. So much for the cease fire.

The closer we got to the city, the more mujahedeen checkpoints we passed

-- at one, men with kefir around their faces holding Kalashnikovs began shooting their guns in the air, showing their eagerness to fight.

The city itself was virtually empty, aside from groups of mujahedeen standing on every other street corner. It was a city at war. We rolled towards the one small clinic where we were to deliver our medical supplies from INTERSOS, an Italian NGO. The small clinic is managed by Mr. Maki Al-Nazzal, who was hired just 4 days ago to do so. He is not a doctor.

He hadn't slept much, along with all of the doctors at the small clinic.

It started with just three doctors, but since the Americans bombed one of the hospitals, and were currently sniping people as they attempted to enter/exit the main hospital, effectively there were only 2 small clinics treating all of Falluja. The other has been set up in a car garage.

As I was there, an endless stream of women and children who'd been sniped by the Americans were being raced into the dirty clinic, the cars speeding over the curb out front as their wailing family members carried them in.

One woman and small child had been shot through the neck -- the woman was making breathy gurgling noises as the doctors frantically worked on her amongst her muffled moaning.

The small child, his eyes glazed and staring into space, continually vomited as the doctors raced to save his life.

After 30 minutes, it appeared as though neither of them would survive.

One victim of American aggression after another was brought into the clinic, nearly all of them women and children.

This scene continued, off and on, into the night as the sniping continued.

As evening approached the nearby mosque loudspeaker announced that the mujahadeen had completely destroyed a U.S. convoy. Gunfire filled the streets, along with jubilant yelling. As the mosque began blaring prayers, the determination and confidence of the area was palpable.

One small boy of 11, his face covered by a kefir and toting around a Kalashnikov that was nearly as big as he was, patrolled areas around the clinic, making sure they were secure. He was confident and very eager for battle. I wondered how the U.S. soldiers would feel about fighting an 11 year-old child? For the next day, on the way out of Falluja, I saw several groups of children fighting as mujahedeen.

After we delivered the aid, three of my friends agreed to ride out on the one functioning ambulance for the clinic to retrieve the wounded.

Although the ambulance already had three bullet holes from a U.S. sniper through the front windshield on the driver's side, having westerners on board was the only hope that soldiers would allow them to retrieve more wounded Iraqis.

The previous driver was wounded when one of the sniper's shots grazed his head.

Bombs were heard sporadically exploding around the city, along with random gunfire.

It grew dark, so we ended up spending the night with one of the local men who had filmed the atrocities. He showed us footage of a dead baby who he claimed was torn from his mother's chest by Marines. Other horrendous footage of slain Iraqis was shown to us as well.

My entire time in Falluja there was the constant buzzing of military drones.

As we walked through the empty streets towards the house where we would sleep, a plane flew over us and dropped several flares. We ran for a nearby wall to hunker down, afraid it was dropping cluster bombs. There had been reports of this, as two of the last victims that arrived at the clinic were reported by the locals to have been hit by cluster bombs -- they were horribly burned and their bodies shredded.

It was a long night-between being sick from drinking unfiltered water and the nagging concern of the full invasion beginning, I didn't sleep.

Each time I would begin to slip into sleep, a jet would fly over and I wondered if the full scale bombing would commence. Meanwhile, the drones continued to buzz throughout Falluja.

The next morning we walked back to the clinic, and the mujahedeen in the area were extremely edgy, expecting the invasion anytime. They were taking up positions to fight. One of my friends who'd done another ambulance run to collect two bodies said that a Marine she encountered had told them to leave, because the military was about to use air support to begin 'clearing the city.' One of the bodies they brought to the clinic was that of an old man who was shot by a sniper outside of his home, while his wife and children sat wailing inside.

The family couldn't reach his body, for fear of being sniped by the Americans themselves. His stiff body was carried into the clinic with flies swarming above it.

The already insane situation continued to degrade, and by the time the wounded from the clinic were loaded onto our bus and we prepared to leave, everyone felt the invasion was looming near. American bombs continued to fall not far from us, and sporadic gunfire continued. Jets were circling the outskirts of the city.

We drove out, past loads of mujahedeen at their posts along the streets.

In a long line of vehicles loaded with families, we slowly crept out of the embattled city, passing several military vehicles on the outskirts town.

When we took a wrong turn at one point and tried to go down a road controlled by a different group of mujahedeen, we were promptly surrounded by men cocking their weapons and aiming them at us. The doctors and patients on board explained to them we were coming from Falluja and on a humanitarian aid mission, so they let us go.

The trip back to Baghdad was slow, but relatively uneventful. We passed several more smoking shells of vehicles destroyed by the freedom fighters; more fuel tankers, more military vehicles destroyed.

What I can report from Falluja is that there is no ceasefire, and apparently there never was. Iraqi women and children are being shot by American snipers. Over 600 Iraqis have now been killed by American aggression, and the residents have turned two football fields into graveyards. Ambulances are being shot by the Americans. And now they are preparing to launch a full-scale invasion of the city.

All of which is occurring under the guise of catching the people who killed the four Blackwater Security personnel and hung two of their bodies from a bridge.

April 13, 2004

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

could you specify the source. Sounds a little like arab prop!

[red oct 2]

look i just wana say this to all of the non-americans in this forum, don't think what happen means this is how all of are soldiers act, look hard enough and you can find soldiers that have protested such heavy handed actions. im not going to debate further on this thread, i'll just agree that things will get a lot worse from here on out.

[denoir 0]

look i just wana say this to all of the non-americans in this forum, don't think what happen means this is how all of are soldiers act, look hard enough and you can find soldiers that have protested such heavy handed actions.

Absolutely. I'm confident that it is a small minority. It should however be dealt with by the military to discourage such things from happening. While the individual in question certainly is guilty of murder - it's war. Shit happens and people flip out. You have that problem in any military in any conflict. The alarming thing here is that the US military if not sanctions then at least tolerates such behaviour. And that's bad. That's war crime bad.

[Longinius 1]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.nuclear.ap/index.html

It would seem that nuclear powerplants in Iraq are not guarded, and material might have been removed from them.

So, the US attacks Iraq on the basis of preventing them from spreading or using WMD's. They blow the existing government and infrastructure to bits, leaving radioactive material open for the taking. Isnt that making it a bit easy for terrorists?

[quicksand 0]

could you specify the source. Sounds a little like arab prop!  

So what if it`s arab,is that what makes this article less true?

Yes the arab media shows sollidarity with the Iraqis,but when you are reporting about Fallujah you don`t have to lie about anything,just by reporting the truth you`ll get this image of the dirty war managed by the US in the siege of this city

As you can see even AFP has an article of a US marine idmiting he killed with cold blood a civillian and vowing to kill more to revenge his buddy.

From the pictures I saw and the numbers stated(AFP reports 301 women and children killed) I have absolutley no reason to doubt the authenticity of this article.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I didnt say I doubt it, I just said the wording sounds a bit too much like prop. You know there is two different ways of bringing across a message.

[Longinius 1]

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,463911,00.html

This might be interesting for those that can understand Swedish. Its a public chat held by the daily Aftonbladet with a journalist named Urban Hamid from Sweden, who recently was kidnapped and later released in Iraq. He is answering questions about what the situation is like in his area, what the average people think etc.

[denoir 0]

It would seem that nuclear powerplants in Iraq are not guarded, and material might have been removed from them.

So, the US attacks Iraq on the basis of preventing them from spreading or using WMD's. They blow the existing government and infrastructure to bits, leaving radioactive material open for the taking. Isnt that making it a bit easy for terrorists?

About a month after Baghdad fell when the UN inspectors did their first post-occupation round they went ballistic. It turned out that the coalition troops had not guarded the chemical and nuclear plants that had stuff locked up under UN seal. It had been looted. So a fair amount of radioactive and chemical substances that were under control when Saddam was in power simply were stolen. You can guess who was in the market for such substances.

[ralphwiggum 6]

So what if it`s arab,is that what makes this article less true?

Yes the arab media shows sollidarity with the Iraqis,but when you are reporting about Fallujah you don`t have to lie about anything,just by reporting the truth you`ll get this image of the dirty war managed by the US in the siege of this city

As you can see even AFP has an article of a US marine idmiting he killed with cold blood a civillian and vowing to kill more to revenge his buddy.

From the pictures I saw and the numbers stated(AFP reports 301 women and children killed) I have absolutley no reason to doubt the authenticity of this article.

basically, it is a propaganda since it puts a spin on what is going on. What is happening is what is happening, but putting overly simplistic or twisted 'interpretation' is not telling the truth.

in other words, just like some neocons saying 'oh saddam was a bad man since he killed kurds, defied UN resolutions. (insert some reasons to start war)'

while both reasons(killing kurdish, defying UN resolutions) are fact, that doesn't mean that starting a war is correct answer.

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]About a month after Baghdad fell when the UN inspectors did their first post-occupation round they went ballistic. It turned out that the coalition troops had not guarded the chemical and nuclear plants that had stuff locked up under UN seal. It had been looted. So a fair amount of radioactive and chemical substances that were under control when Saddam was in power simply were stolen. You can guess who was in the market for such substances.

I remember that. One would think they had learned from their mistakes and actually placed guards there by now...

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2004....ex.html

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush secretly ordered a war plan drawn up against Iraq less than two months after U.S. forces attacked Afghanistan and was so worried the decision would cause a furor he did not tell everyone on his national security team, says a new book on his Iraq policy.

Bush feared that if news got out about the Iraq plan as U.S. forces were fighting another conflict, people would think he was too eager for war, journalist Bob Woodward writes in "Plan of Attack," a behind-the-scenes account of the 16 months leading to the Iraq invasion.

The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book, which will be available in book stores next week.

"I knew what would happen if people thought we were developing a potential war plan for Iraq," Bush is quoted as telling Woodward. "It was such a high-stakes moment and ... it would look like that I was anxious to go to war. And I'm not anxious to go to war."

[Balschoiw 0]

Annan and Barraday are pretty pissed about the missing nuclear material. They say US is responsible for the material and have to present it asap. Funny, the oil ministry was sealed of like Fort Knox, but WMD capable material was worth no protection. Coalition knows where their priorities are...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

HEY HOOOO: We are finally there: Vietnam! What is next? Napalm?

Us forces drop 1000kg bomb on Falludja!

[Akira 0]

Zinni: Warnings Ignored

It appears that the TBA have trouble listening to anybody who doesn't tell them what they want to hear. I wonder what else they have ignored?

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2004....ex.html

Quote[/b] ](CNN) -- Three Czech journalists held hostage in Iraq say they were moved from place to place by their abductors and handed off to different groups during their captivity.

The three are journalists Michael Kubal and Petr Klima from Czech TV and Vit Pohanka from Czech Radio. They were taken near Fallujah early in the week and were freed Friday.

Kubal told CNN "there was a checkpoint with some militiamen and we were kept there and then taken blindfolded to one place and then they checked if we were journalists and from the Czech Republic.

"We were then taken another hour by car and taken to another place in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the desert. It was a former car machine workshop about seven meters by four meters, and (we were) kept there for six days."

Kubal said it was "a bit complicated" to talk to the captors "because we're not perfect in Arabic and they were not perfect in English."

"The worst moment for us was when it was clear we had a problem that would not be solved in a day, and the best moment was when we stepped inside the door of the Czech Embassy in Baghdad."

He described his captors as anti-coalition forces but gave no names.

Also Friday, a Syrian-born Canadian who was held hostage in Iraq was also been released, the group he works for told CNN Friday.

Fadi Fadel, 33, was released and is in Najaf, said Ed Bligh, a spokesman for the International Rescue Committee.

Meanwhile in Japan, a fresh controversy is brewing after two of three Japanese hostages released in Iraq said they still wanted to work in the country.

The release of the three -- two aid workers and a journalist -- on Thursday brought huge sighs of relief in Tokyo where Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's government faced its biggest challenge yet.

courage is what these journalists show IMO.

of course, since this is war zone i guess that means "he chose to travel to a warzone in which his nation is considered the enemy. By doing this, he made himself a target."

and people complain that Abrams shot and killed a reporter in Palestine hotel when Baghdad fell last year.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

The italian who got shot showed great courage too. He actually ripped off the piece of cotton that was hiding his eyes and said "now see how an italian dies"! Tough man!

[Acecombat 0]

This all is getting out of hand ...

When will either side stop killing and try to negotiate something , its not like as if the people fighting want to throw US out they seem to have certain demands how about listening to them? Otherwise this shit is going to go on and on like Afghanistan probably , sometimes going in to remission but surfacing again. I dont think fighting is solving anyones problem.

[ralphwiggum 6]

This all is getting out of hand ...

When will either side stop killing and try to negotiate something ,

well mthere was that 6 day ceasefire agreement...

Quote[/b] ]

its not like as if the people fighting want to throw US out they seem to have certain demands how about listening to them?

nope the insurgents want US troops to move out of Iraq. just plain simple. they say taht to news, they say it on street.

Quote[/b] ]Otherwise this shit is going to go on and on like Afghanistan probably , sometimes going in to remission but surfacing again. I dont think fighting is solving anyones problem.

true.