The Iraq thread 3

[theavonlady 2]

But watch out Blix, there are some fairly insane polls ran by coalition media coming out of Iraq saying Iraqis wanted the war, and they are better off now.      (my god, where did they poll)

As you can see, this is what I already commented onthese polls a while back.

Yes, you made up an assumption. You're very creative.

[bn880 5]

You make up assumptions when you post such poll results, you do not know how the poll was conducted.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

usually polls are conducted by organisations that have specialised themselves in that field and earned a reputation over decades. In germany the SOURCE of a poll is generally deceisive for the reliability. In Iraq there is no such reliability because the polls have been constructed by, well who knows which person did them.

AND SECONDLY

Iraqis are unhappy if they feel unsafe

To count unhappy iraqis into your poll you have to go and visit them where they live

But were they live it is unsafe

And journalists creating polls wouldnt wanna go there.

[theavonlady 2]

You make up assumptions when you post such poll results

I make few assumptions. I mostly presented the poll as is.

Quote[/b] ]you do not know how the poll was conducted

Well obviously, you do know. So tell us.

Otherwise, here's as much as any of us will know for the moment (PDF file). Lots of interesting stuff.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I am not handicaped but recently I type as if I was! Words doubleposted, missing the "t" in "cant", creating unlogical sentences and loosing the train of thought.

Damn what is happening to me?

[theavonlady 2]

usually polls are conducted by organisations that have specialised themselves in that field and earned a reputation over decades. In germany the SOURCE of a poll is generally deceisive for the reliability. In Iraq there is no such reliability because the polls have been constructed by, well who knows which person did them.

Once again, from the pollsters, Oxford Research, about this poll.

[bn880 5]

You make up assumptions when you post such poll results

I make few assumptions. I mostly presented the poll as is.

Quote[/b] ]you do not know how the poll was conducted

Well obviously, you do know. So tell us.

I have said what I wanted to say, posting this poll is a major assumtion that it is credible, unless you immediately question it and post it for that intent.

Okay, good, information on where the polled people came from etc. now a new problem is, A) were there any coalition troops near by, and B) the polling organization belongs to the coalition

oops

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

usually polls are conducted by organisations that have specialised themselves in that field and earned a reputation over decades. In germany the SOURCE of a poll is generally deceisive for the reliability. In Iraq there is no such reliability because the polls have been constructed by, well who knows which person did them.

Once again, from the pollsters, Oxford Research, about this poll.

Looks reliable enough to me.

But seriously, do you believe they had the "freedom of movement" to get the right mix of people? Let me guess. I assume they positioned themselves in the safe center of the safest town to question the bypassers.

[bn880 5]

You do not know, many people might have thought the coalition is probing them with a semi official looking poll to kick their ass if they support opposition.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

"Can I ask you some questions for a poll?"

"sure! What do you want me answer?.... oh sorry.. I sometimes forget that Saddam is gone..so you ask me for MY opinion, right?"

[theavonlady 2]

Since when can ~57% be considered the vast majority?

You're right. The majority.

I retract my retraction!

From the PDF file, containing detailed survey results:

Quote[/b] ]Q1 - Overall, how would you say things are going in your life these days very

good, quite good, quite bad, or very bad?

Base = All respondents

%

Very good 13.4

Quite good 56.6

Quite bad 14.2

Very bad 14.8

Difficult to say 1.1

Total 100.0

It seems it's as if people here want the Iraqis to be miserable. I wonder why.

[theavonlady 2]

You do not know, many people might have thought the coalition is probing them with a semi official looking poll to kick their ass if they support opposition.  

Now we're conspiring that people are making conspiracy theories when being polled.

[theavonlady 2]

"Can I ask you some questions for a poll?"

"sure! What do you want me answer?.... oh sorry.. I sometimes forget that Saddam is gone..so you ask me for MY opinion, right?"

Old ill-mannered Israeli joke, from when the Iron Curtain was still hanging:

A reporter stands on the street corner of a cosmopolitan city.

He stops a Russian and asks him "Excuse me but what is your opinion about the meat shortage"?

The Russian answers him "What's an opinion"?

The reporter next stops a Pole and asks him "Excuse me but what is your opinion about the meat shortage"?

The Pole answers him "What's meat"?

The reporter then stops an American and asks him "Excuse me but what is your opinion about the meat shortage"?

The American answers him "What's a shortage"?

The frustrated reporter then stops an Israeli and asks him "Excuse me but what is your opinion about the meat shortage"?

The Israeli answers him "What's excuse me"?

[bn880 5]

You do not know, many people might have thought the coalition is probing them with a semi official looking poll to kick their ass if they support opposition.

Now we're conspiring that people are making conspiracy theories when being polled.

Right, you are right, things are always what they appear when an occupational country makes a poll on the occipied population. WTF was I thinking.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I know a different version of that yoke. But cant remember it fully now, but I will post it later on today!

[theavonlady 2]

But cant remember it fully now

Quote[/b] ]Words doubleposted, missing the "t" in "cant", creating unlogical sentences and loosing the train of thought.

There's a pattern here.

[quicksand 0]

I know a different version of that yoke. But cant remember it fully now, but I will post it later on today!  

Is this the one you were thinking about?

Last month, a worldwide survey was conducted by the UN.

The only question asked was: Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world? The survey was a huge failure...

In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant.

In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant.

In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant.

In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant.

In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant.

In South America they didn't know what "please" meant.

And in the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant.

[Bernadotte 0]

Since when can ~57% be considered the vast majority?

You're right. The majority.

I retract my retraction!

From the PDF file, containing detailed survey results:

Quote[/b] ]Q1 - Overall, how would you say things are going in your life these days very

good, quite good, quite bad, or very bad?

...

The original question asked if things were better than a year ago, not how are things going these days.  I guess you decided there's no need to retract your answer when you can simply change the question?

[theavonlady 2]

Since when can ~57% be considered the vast majority?

You're right. The majority.

I retract my retraction!

From the PDF file, containing detailed survey results:

Quote[/b] ]Q1 - Overall, how would you say things are going in your life these days very

good, quite good, quite bad, or very bad?

...

The original question asked if things were better than a year ago, not how are things going these days.  I guess you decided there's no need to retract your answer when you can simply change the question?

You're right!

I retract my retraction of my retraction.

But things are still going better for the Iraqis, according to their own opinions.

[Bernadotte 0]

One more look at those statistics...

From the PDF file, containing detailed survey results:

Quote[/b] ]Q1 - Overall, how would you say things are going in your life these days ...

Very good 13.4

Quite good 56.6

Quite bad 14.2

Very bad 14.8

Difficult to say 1.1

The number of Iraqis feeling that things in their life are going very bad is ~15% or nearly 4 million people.  That means the number of Iraqis who are suffering badly outnumber coalition forces by about 30:1.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I know a different version of that yoke. But cant remember it fully now, but I will post it later on today!  

Is this the one you were thinking about?

Last month, a worldwide survey was conducted by the UN.

The only question asked was: Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world? The survey was a huge failure...

In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant.

In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant.

In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant.

In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant.

In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant.

In South America they didn't know what "please" meant.

And in the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant.

That is exactly the one!

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ]that's just absurd. what did that man do?

He made himself a target. And paid for it.

Why? Did he flinch or cough as he was bound and gagged sitting on the floor of his cell?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]no no no, the brave insurgents who protect their homeland would not do such thing as killing an innocent civilian, would they?

Of course they would. They will probably do anything to achieve victory, like most people backed into a corner, fighting for their lifes, would.

Nice to see you're on the side of cutthroats and savages. Nothing suprising here. Move along.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]they can choose to stay away from battles, and would only be natural to do so. however, transporting firearms, although not firing is aidding the enemy.

His point is that if women and children chose NOT to stay away from battle, but to actively fight you, then you are probably on the wrong side.

Really? Who appointed you spokesman for the majority of Iraqis?

Recent polls show the vast majority of Iraqis are better off now than when Saddam was burying them and that they want the coalition troops to deal with the Iraqi terrorist violence.

Maybe it's you whose on the wrong side.

That attitude Al, is really the main problem. That word "savages" has been used to describe Israeli forces as well in the Palistinian territories. It could also be used to describe some of the actions by US troops in Iraq (not by all, but certainly some have committed war crimes just as in all wars...it just happens). But even though it is only a few stupid individuals in the IDF and US military that commit attrocities, the Arab media blows these things WAAAAY out of proportion and show Americans and Israelies as all being Savages. But we do exactly the same thing in our media by showing all Iraqis as savages especially those in Fellujah or who are militants.

It seems as if in your mind just as in the mind of the Bush administration and many Americans, these militants have been reduced to something worse then animals. Certainly some of these militants are in that category. But to lump them all together is wrong. If you noticed, the ones who took those Italians hostage and who executed one of them were part of a new unknown group.

There are tons of factions in Iraq and not all of them are Iraqis. Some militants are also fighting more honorably then others. But they are not all one and the same.

The problem is when people like yourself believe they are and treat them all same. This is the #1 problem of Israel policy towards Palistinians and why Israel will most likely never see peace short of committing genocide.

The US policy in Iraq is very similar. Invade Fellujah for the actions of a few who mutilated those corpses of those 4 security guys rather then be patient and let the Iraqi Army handle it once they are at full strength rather then stirring up the beehive before we are prepared to handle the violent response.

Iraqis are NOT all savages. But if you truly believe that then we should go in and kill every Iraqi man, woman, and child without mercy because they are rabid animals that must be put down or beaten into submission.

But I can also tell you that if Iraqis believe that is how Americans think then I can fully understand why they choose to fight and why they would have no mercy upon US soldiers or any country that supports them. They are fighting for their homes, and families...and as someone else said, when women and children are fighting you, something is SERIOUSLY wrong. In my belief, failure to understand why this is borders on criminal negligence.

Meanwhile, the Arab media depicts the "valiant" struggle of these Iraqi men, women, and children against the US occupiers. This will only inspire further foreign Islamic "jihadis" to go and help defend them. Who can blame them?

If you grow up as an Arab in the Middle East you are constantly exposed to a bombardment of anti-American, and anti-Israeli messages from the media and popular culture.

All we are doing now is feeding that fire and pushing our two worlds towards a horrific conflict in which the chess pieces are being set out as we speak.

Here in the US we have the power to stop this insane game and get serious about peace by setting aside our arrogance and leading by example. But due to human nature, I don't think that will happen without some very brave leadership which I don't see in Kerry and CERTAINLY not in President Bush who won't even take responsibility for his own failures.

As for all those polls... as someone else said, at this point, polls are useless in Iraq. There is no way in hell you could conduct an accurate poll at this point unless all the people conducting the poll were unarmed and unescorted Iraqis.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[denoir 0]

I know a different version of that yoke. But cant remember it fully now, but I will post it later on today!  

Ok, sorry Albert, but I've been suffering for the past years: It's joke with an j -- Joke!      

Miles Teg:

Quote[/b] ]That attitude Al, is really the main problem. That word "savages" has been used to describe Israeli forces as well in the Palistinian territories. It could also be used to describe some of the actions by US troops in Iraq (not by all, but certainly some have committed war crimes just as in all wars...it just happens). But even though it is only a few stupid individuals in the IDF and US military that commit attrocities, the Arab media blows these things WAAAAY out of proportion and show Americans and Israelies as all being Savages.

Absolutely. I reacted to the 'savage' statement as well. And it was the second time in a short while (the first one being about the "Allahu Akbar" chanting). I think it is a terribly inappropriate attitude. Just because it is a different culture doesn't mean that it's any more barbaric or savage.

When talking about war, it becomes absurd. Are you on higher moral grounds when you rip apart people with cluster bombs than if you up close and personal kill them? Sure, it looks cleaner from a camera mounted on an aircraft but in reality it is the same thing.

[quicksand 0]

Excelent points Miles Teg.In most parts I`ve been thinking the same as you for a long time.And to strenghten what you said:

Quote[/b] ]Three Japanese civilians who were taken hostage in Iraq last week have been freed unharmed.

Japanese government officials confirmed the news, which was first reported by the Arab broadcaster al-Jazeera.

Aid worker Nahoko Takato, researcher Noriaki Imai and photojournalist Sochiro Koriyama were all in good health, al-Jazeera said.

Their kidnappers had threatened to kill them unless Japan pulled its 550 troops out of Iraq.

The hostages are now in the Japanese embassy in Baghdad. The female captive, Nahoko Takato, was shown in the al-Jazeera footage in tears.

The BBC's correspondent in Tokyo, Jonathan Head, says it is not clear what prompted their captors' change of heart.

The hostages' families, who have been camped in an office in Tokyo since their capture a week ago, waved and cheered as the news came through.

But the relief is tempered by Japanese media reports earlier on Thursday that two other civilians have also been taken hostage in Iraq, although the government said it was yet to confirm this.

The latest Japanese nationals to have reportedly been abducted are freelance journalist Jumpei Yasuda, 30, and Nobutaka Watanabe, 36, an anti-war activist and former member of the Japanese army.

BBC NEWS

[Bernadotte 0]

Nice to see you're on the side of cutthroats and savages.

Hey, are you related to Kipling?

Quote[/b] ]The White Man's Burden

Take up the White Man's burden--

Send forth the best ye breed--

Go bind your sons to exile

To serve your captives' need;

To wait in heavy harness,

On fluttered folk and wild--

Your new-caught, sullen peoples,

Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--

In patience to abide,

To veil the threat of terror

And check the show of pride;

By open speech and simple,

An hundred times made plain

To seek another's profit,

And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--

The savage wars of peace--

Fill full the mouth of Famine

And bid the sickness cease;

And when your goal is nearest

The end for others sought,

Watch sloth and heathen Folly

Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--

No tawdry rule of kings,

But toil of serf and sweeper--

The tale of common things.

The ports ye shall not enter,

The roads ye shall not tread,

Go mark them with your living,

And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--

And reap his old reward:

The blame of those ye better,

The hate of those ye guard--

The cry of hosts ye humour

(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--

"Why brought he us from bondage,

Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--

Ye dare not stoop to less--

Nor call too loud on Freedom

To cloke your weariness;

By all ye cry or whisper,

By all ye leave or do,

The silent, sullen peoples

Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--

Have done with childish days--

The lightly proferred laurel,

The easy, ungrudged praise.

Comes now, to search your manhood

Through all the thankless years

Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,

The judgment of your peers!

-- Rudyard Kipling, 1899

This famous poem, written by Britain's imperial poet, was a response to the American take over of the Phillipines after the Spanish-American War.