The Iraq thread 3

[Jinef 2]

Well you want to puke? Welcome to reality, the world ain't such a nice place after all eh?

What the hell do you mean L337? The median I used to convey my opinion was called the 'English Language'; it's quite popular actually, you must have heard of it.

Oh these moronic good vs evil arguments are like watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Yes I do want the terrorists to win because obviously if I disagree with you I am a terrorist sympathizer.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yes I do want the terrorists to win because obviously if I disagree with you I am a terrorist sympathizer.

Hehe

So what's so bad about Iraq becoming the the next Iran. If Iraq is this years black and they throw out the "coalition of the evil" do anyone here strongly believe they'll cut down on oil production Like Iran ever did that LOL Personally, I'd love to see Iraq being governed by a coalition of it's own people (various religious/ethnic factions) although this is nothing but a naive an utopian dream.

[joltan 0]

Speaking of WW2 connections, US-German POW relations were 'ok', as far as POW deals were concerned.

I think you should readup on the handling of russians in german pow camps. link

[brgnorway 0]

This is a good description of what happend a short time ago:

Quote[/b] ]"Something happened in Baghdad yesterday, but what exactly?" asks the Guardian's James Meek.

"What we know is that somewhere in Saddam Hussein's sprawling former cantonment on the banks of the Tigris, behind silver miles of new razor wire, behind high concrete barriers stronger than most medieval fortifications, behind sandbags, five security checks, US armoured vehicles, US armoured soldiers, special forces of various countries and private security guards, behind secrecy and a fear of killing so intense that none save a handful of people knew it had happened until after it was over, an American bureaucrat handed a piece of paper to an Iraqi judge, jumped on a helicopter, and left the country."

From the pinko-communist-treehugger-liberal newspaper The Guardian

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Oh these moronic good vs evil arguments are like watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Why you got to bring in Buffy....

Quote[/b] ]So what's so bad about Iraq becoming the the next Iran. If Iraq is this years black and they throw out the "coalition of the evil" do anyone here strongly believe they'll cut down on oil production Like Iran ever did that LOL Personally, I'd love to see Iraq being governed by a coalition of it's own people (various religious/ethnic factions) although this is nothing but a naive an utopian dream.

*Reminds brgnorway that a clear majority of Iraqis do support the new government*....why the hell people skip my polls that are "positive" but read and make the "negative" polls gospel...

[Chill 0]

The point is becareful of the USA government!! In 1934 Hitler united the people by having a common enemy (Jews) and we know the outcome of that action!

Same thing with this war on terror. 20 fanatics has made the USA hate all people asociated with Islam a terrorist. Do not follow blindly and listen to your media that is payed by the rich and powerful and tell you to watch out for the "terrorist under the bed" crap

Dont let 1934 happen again! Use your brains and open your eyes to who are the real criminals here!

[brgnorway 0]

Speaking of WW2 connections, US-German POW relations were 'ok', as far as POW deals were concerned.

I think you should readup on the handling of russians in german pow camps. link

Yep! My grandfather was sent to Sachsenhauzen consentration camp! Torture, hanging, shootings, starving and pneumonia is not "ok" in my book! He was lucky though and came home in the end - but more dead than alive.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]*Reminds brgnorway that a clear majority of Iraqis do support the new government*....why the hell people skip my polls that are "positive" but read and make the "negative" polls gospel...

LOL - why not try it out with an election first then?

A majority of the Kurds, Sunni's and the Shia's - or do you mean some of them, one of them - or maybe a "majority of the exiled Iraqis" ?

Don't be so naive! You know - I've been told most americans secretly praise communism as the best - simply the best.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Well you want to puke? Welcome to reality, the world ain't such a nice place after all eh?

What the hell do you mean L337? The median I used to convey my opinion was called the 'English Language'; it's quite popular actually, you must have heard of it.

Oh these moronic good vs evil arguments are like watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Yes I do want the terrorists to win because obviously if I disagree with you I am a terrorist sympathizer.

I think you need to just take a quick visit to reality, and then comeback and stay longer.

P.S. It's 1337, that was the worst 1337 post ever. You should see mine.

Quote[/b] ]The point is becareful of the USA government!! In 1934 Hitler united the people by having a common enemy (Jews) and we know the outcome of that action!

Same thing with this war on terror. 20 fanatics has made the USA hate all people asociated with Islam a terrorist. Do not follow blindly and listen to your media that is payed by the rich and powerful and tell you to watch out for the "terrorist under the bed" crap

Dont let 1934 happen again! Use your brains and open your eyes to who are the real criminals here!

Chill, I don't follow blindly, I have studied it and I know the facts. You can trust no Goverment, but there are not just 20 "fanatics".

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]The point is becareful of the USA government!! In 1934 Hitler united the people by having a common enemy (Jews) and we know the outcome of that action!

Same thing with this war on terror. 20 fanatics has made the USA hate all people asociated with Islam a terrorist. Do not follow blindly and listen to your media that is payed by the rich and powerful and tell you to watch out for the "terrorist under the bed" crap

Dont let 1934 happen again! Use your brains and open your eyes to who are the real criminals here!

I know what you mean....congress just passed a law taken away citizenship from muslims......crack=kills

Quote[/b] ]

LOL - why not try it out with an election first then?

A majority of the Kurds, Sunni's and the Shia's - or do you mean some of them, one of them - or maybe a "majority of the exiled Iraqis" ?

Don't be so naive! You know - I've been told most americans secretly praise communism as the best - simply the best.

Call the UN because they are ones who are going to be doing the election.

[Gollum1 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Imretty angry right now, I just read were the killed another American Soldier over there. A captive! These people are cowards, and no they are NOT animals, they are worse! If you think American policy is why people target us, then you are as stupid as the crap in my gut.

I see,so you are proposing to destroy all your nuke arsenal,air power,ground power,economy thus becoming like the countries the "terrorist" live in(weak,unable to fight back) and after you will resort to their unconventional attacks(strap a belt to yourself and commit suicide for what you thing it`s the better of your country),right?

Quote[/b] ]Imretty angry right now, I just read were the killed another American Soldier over there. A captive! These people are cowards, and no they are NOT animals, they are worse! I

The same thing goes for the americans who sufocated the Iraqi general and murdered 6 other captives in Abu Gharib,right?

Dude, thats exactly what I am saying...yea.

Just what are you quoting and agreeing with? Read it next time, you're completely contradicting yourself if you're saying exactly that, "Dude".

Quote[/b] ]

Well you want to puke? Welcome to reality, the world ain't such a nice place after all eh?

What the hell do you mean L337? The median I used to convey my opinion was called the 'English Language'; it's quite popular actually, you must have heard of it.

Oh these moronic good vs evil arguments are like watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Yes I do want the terrorists to win because obviously if I disagree with you I am a terrorist sympathizer.

I think you need to just take a quick visit to reality, and then comeback and stay longer.

P.S. It's 1337, that was the worst 1337 post ever. You should see mine.

You're the only one living in a dream world and making completely nonsensical posts like this one. "1337", what do you mean with that?

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Call the UN because they are ones who are going to be doing the election.

My point was a retorical one. You wrote that "a majority" of the people supported the new government. I'd believe that if I was delirious.

Do you think it's likely that this is a man most people would trust: Ayad Allawi, a former Baathist collaborator of Saddam Hussein who spent most of the past three decades exiled in London, the last one of those in the pay of America's Central Intelligence Agency.

What kind of strata and selection did they use as material for this poll or statistic? Do you really believe the "findings" true yourself?

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Do not follow blindly and listen to your media that is payed by the rich and powerful and tell you to watch out for the "terrorist under the bed" crap

Well, in case you didn't notice, there were some terrorists under the bed.

Quote[/b] ]The same thing goes for the americans who sufocated the Iraqi general and murdered 6 other captives in Abu Gharib,right?

Yes.

Quote[/b] ]My point was a retorical one. You wrote that "a majority" of the people supported the new government. I'd believe that if I was delirious.

Please present polling data that contradicts his information.

[Balschoiw 0]

It´s terrible to see what this thread has turned into lately.

As a matter of fact it is related on Iraq and no "Good vs. Evil" wich some people try to turn it into.

Your lack of knowledge in international history and actual events is shocking Duke of Ray. You´re views are not acceptable for me. You are a radical imo. No better than other radicals in the world. Besides the fact that some of them seem to be better informed.

We used to discuss the Iraq news here. Now it has turned into a flamefest that noone benefits of. It´s not even a discussion anymore.

Wake me up when the quarrel is over

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Do you think it's likely that this is a man most people would trust: Ayad Allawi, a former Baathist collaborator of Saddam Hussein who spent most of the past three decades exiled in London, the last one of those in the pay of America's Central Intelligence Agency.

What kind of strata and selection did they use as material for this poll or statistic? Do you really believe the "findings" true yourself?

....

page 242

Quote[/b] ]

The poll was based on more than 1,000 face-to-face interviews in six major Iraqi cities that reflect the diverse communities -- Baghdad, Basra, Mosul, Diwaniyah, Hilla and Baqubah -- between June 9 and 19. The margin of error was about 4 percent. The survey was conducted by an independent group that was not identified by U.S. officials for security reasons. The poll was paid for by the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority in an attempt to get a sense of Iraqi attitudes, U.S. officials said.

Quote[/b] ]

But 73 percent of Iraqis polled approve of Allawi to lead the new government, while 84 percent approve of the interim president, Ghazi Yawar, and almost two-thirds back the new cabinet -- all impressive showings that indicate the new leaders each have support spanning ethnic and religious groups, U.S. officials said.

Yawar is more popular than Allawi....

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]As a matter of fact it is related on Iraq and no "Good vs. Evil" wich some people try to turn it into.

Well, if we discuss terrorism that occurs in Iraq, then "Good vs. Evil" arguments are bound to occur.

Quote[/b] ]Why you got to bring in Buffy....

Desires...

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]The survey was conducted by an independent group that was not identified by U.S. officials for security reasons. The poll was paid for by the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority in an attempt to get a sense of Iraqi attitudes, U.S. officials said.

Looks fine and dandy - but there are several possible if not likely flaws to consider:

Present Iraq is not an ideal environment for having polls as the situation is too unstable.

I'd like to see the question form before I accept the "findings" . The way you ask and the form it's asked has a lot to say when you receive answers ( I should know since I've passed obligatory science tests at university) .

I'd also like to see the analysis that the findings are based on.

Whos paying for the poll is also interesting. I bet the findings would be different if UN had ordered it instead.

I just don't accept it simply because the easiest thing in the world would be to manipulate a poll!

[Chill 0]

It´s terrible to see what this thread has turned into lately.

As a matter of fact it is related on Iraq and no "Good vs. Evil" wich some people try to turn it into.

Your lack of knowledge in international history and actual events is shocking Duke of Ray. You´re views are not acceptable for me. You are a radical imo. No better than other radicals in the world. Besides the fact that some of them seem to be better informed.

We used to discuss the Iraq news here. Now it has turned into a flamefest that noone benefits of. It´s not even a discussion anymore.

Wake me up when the quarrel is over  

Its turned into flamefest? Least its better than inocent people getting killed by the "Coalition of the willing"

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Its turned into flamefest? Least its better than inocent people getting killed by the "Coalition of the willing"

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[denoir 0]

I always thought the name "Coallition of the willing" had sort of a pornographic undertone...

Anyway this "turnover of power" is I think the perfect example of the state Iraq is in. They moved it ahead of schedule to preempt terrorist attacks. The ceremony took place in a bunker in the heavlily guarded "green zone" - the coalition military headquarters. There were no celebrations in Iraq.

The handing over of Saddam is more or less a farce too. The Iraqis have gained "legal custody" of him, while he is still under US guard in a US controlled prison. It's a very convenient arrangement. The Iraqis will do what they've done for the last century when overthrowing their leaders: stage a show-trial (not that I will shed any tears for Saddam). The independence of the Iraqi tribunal is exemplified by the fact that its led by Salem Chalabi nephew of the Ahmed Chalabi we all know. And that fits the US quite well, as they didn't have any legal right to prosecute Saddam. Technically he was a POW and would have to be released sooner or later. Now it's an Iraqi matter and the US has technically no responsibility whatsoever. All in all a good solution for everybody involved (except Saddam lol).

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Imretty angry right now, I just read were the killed another American Soldier over there. A captive! These people are cowards, and no they are NOT animals, they are worse! If you think American policy is why people target us, then you are as stupid as the crap in my gut.

I see,so you are proposing to destroy all your nuke arsenal,air power,ground power,economy thus becoming like the countries the "terrorist" live in(weak,unable to fight back) and after you will resort to their unconventional attacks(strap a belt to yourself and commit suicide for what you thing it`s the better of your country),right?

Quote[/b] ]Imretty angry right now, I just read were the killed another American Soldier over there. A captive! These people are cowards, and no they are NOT animals, they are worse! I

The same thing goes for the americans who sufocated the Iraqi general and murdered 6 other captives in Abu Gharib,right?

Dude, thats exactly what I am saying...yea.

Just what are you quoting and agreeing with? Read it next time, you're completely contradicting yourself if you're saying exactly that, "Dude".

Quote[/b] ]

Well you want to puke? Welcome to reality, the world ain't such a nice place after all eh?

What the hell do you mean L337? The median I used to convey my opinion was called the 'English Language'; it's quite popular actually, you must have heard of it.

Oh these moronic good vs evil arguments are like watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Yes I do want the terrorists to win because obviously if I disagree with you I am a terrorist sympathizer.

I think you need to just take a quick visit to reality, and then comeback and stay longer.

P.S. It's 1337, that was the worst 1337 post ever. You should see mine.

You're the only one living in a dream world and making completely nonsensical posts like this one. "1337", what do you mean with that?

Look up 1337 on the net, and yes I live in a dream world, with candy and butterflies.

Quote[/b] ]It´s terrible to see what this thread has turned into lately.

As a matter of fact it is related on Iraq and no "Good vs. Evil" wich some people try to turn it into.

Your lack of knowledge in international history and actual events is shocking Duke of Ray. You´re views are not acceptable for me. You are a radical imo. No better than other radicals in the world. Besides the fact that some of them seem to be better informed.

We used to discuss the Iraq news here. Now it has turned into a flamefest that noone benefits of. It´s not even a discussion anymore.

Wake me up when the quarrel is over

Balschoiw this is not a flamefest, not at all. also nowhere have I showed a lack of "knowledge" except in my inability to spell. I come in here and have strong views, and they are different from many of yours so you do not like me.

Quote[/b] ]Its turned into flamefest? Least its better than inocent people getting killed by the "Coalition of the willing"

Quote[/b] ]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I always thought the name "Coallition of the willing" had sort of a pornographic undertone...

Anyway this "turnover of power" is I think the perfect example of the state Iraq is in. They moved it ahead of schedule to preempt terrorist attacks. The ceremony took place in a bunker in the heavlily guarded "green zone" - the coalition military headquarters. There were no celebrations in Iraq.

The handing over of Saddam is more or less a farce too. The Iraqis have gained "legal custody" of him, while he is still under US guard in a US controlled prison. It's a very convenient arrangement. The Iraqis will do what they've done for the last century when overthrowing their leaders: stage a show-trial (not that I will shed any tears for Saddam). The independence of the Iraqi tribunal is exemplified by the fact that its led by Salem Chalabi nephew of the Ahmed Chalabi we all know. And that fits the US quite well, as they didn't have any legal right to prosecute Saddam. Technically he was a POW and would have to be released sooner or later. Now it's an Iraqi matter and the US has technically no responsibility whatsoever. All in all a good solution for everybody involved (except Saddam lol).

I don't think it matters who gets Saddam, his fate is seems pretty much sealed.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Present Iraq is not an ideal environment for having polls as the situation is too unstable.

Then not to nit-pick, but any poll in Iraq, whether being for or against (both have been presented here) the new government is unreliable and should be thrown out.

Quote[/b] ]I always thought the name "Coallition of the willing" had sort of a pornographic undertone...

Well....

We did fuck Iraq over after all....

[miles teg 1]

Mr. Duke, I posted some solutions 2 pages back but I suppose you chose to ignore those.

There are plenty of intelligent ways to fight terrorism but invading Iraq was not one of them. Indeed there were more then 20 fanatics, but at the time of 9/11 there were probably no more then 2,000 or so hardcore Al-Qaeda. Now with the invasion of Iraq, there are likely hundreds of thousands of Al-Qaeda supporters who now see them as the only real defense against American aggression and oppression of Islamic countries. Every day we stay in Iraq, every day we kill civilians (that of coarse always get into the Arab press), is a day that AL-Qaeda gets new converts to their extremist ideology. The Arab press demonizes us as the savages and barbarians just as our press demonizes all Muslims who fight us and lumps them together with the most extreme groups.

However your belief seems to indicate that you wish for genocide of all Muslims. But I can tell you that if that were to happen we would have a civil war in America. America would cease becoming America as we arrested, butchered, and hunted down all Muslims and suspected Muslims.

I don't think the EU would stand idly by either. Someone would likely try to stop our descent into maddness.

If the next American administration believes as you do that violence is the only solution to this problem then we will almost certainly face a world war and God only knows who will be against us. I know fundamentalist Christians just jump for joy and praise Jesus because they think they're gonna be going to heaven with Jesus just as Islamic extremists believe the same, that Jesus will come back on Judgement Day to deliver the word of Islam to everyone and that they will be the ones going to heaven with the evil Jews and Christians going to hell.

Just lovely...

All of this of coarse can be nicely avoided if people would wake the hell up and get out of their locked mindset of "ME GOOD THEM EVIL!"

You think you and Americans like yourself are the first to think that way? History is simply repeating itself.

There are intelligent ways of fighting this war on terror and again if you go back a few pages and read my post I state some of them. That's just the tip of the iceberg. There are lots of other non-violent, and violent but subtle methods but just like mobs of Iraqis, Americans want BLOOD and want ACTION and not quiet covert operations they will never hear about in the news. Politicians want VOTES and know that looking tough is the way to get re-elected.

At any rate you're free to believe what ever you want cuz hey, it's a free country...well for now.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Gollum1 0]

Look up 1337 on the net, and yes I live in a dream world, with candy and butterflies.

Not candy and butterflies, but hell-spawned demons (terrorists) and perfect, innocent beings of light (American soldiers).

The whole middle east does NOT, in fact, hate you, but you seem to hate the whole middle least. Have you actually been there or do you take polls from Saudi Arabia to show that the gap of hell will soon open there?

If you think it is a matter of good vs. evil then it cannot be discussed reasonably and yes, you need a reality check.

I know what 1337 means but I still fail to see what you were trying to point out in the context, whatever.

[denoir 0]

Well, Miles Teg you might get a chance to find out the situation for yourself:

US recalls old soldiers for duty [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]

The US army has moved to recall nearly 6,000 former soldiers to active service to help maintain its force levels in Iraq and Afghanistan. It has played down the move but this is the first sizeable call-up of the kind since the 1991 Gulf War and critics say it amounts to backdoor conscription.

The US has relied on volunteer armed forces since ending the draft three decades ago during the Vietnam War. It has a pool of 111,000 ex-soldiers in its Individual Ready Reserve.

The BBC's Pentagon correspondent, Nick Childs, reports that the recall is a further sign of the strain on the army and is likely to provoke controversy.

'Nothing new'

There are currently about 140,000 US troops in Iraq, many more than the Pentagon had originally planned for at this stage.

As members of the IRR, the 5,600 former soldiers now being recalled have retired or otherwise left the military but still have a reserve obligation. Unlike other reservists, however, they do not train or receive pay unless they are mobilised and probably did not expect ever to have to serve again, our correspondent says.

The US army defended the recall as "nothing new or unusual".

"It's a management tool which we've always had available to augment our forces when we need additional personnel in a time of war," said Lt Col Pamela Hart, an army spokeswoman at the Pentagon.

Unwritten agreement

The development, along with other recent Pentagon moves to stop many current soldiers from retiring, will add ammunition to those critics who say the Bush administration is attempting a backdoor draft. Retired Army Col Andrew Bacevich, a Boston University international relations professor, said the recall suggested the army was too small for its current missions.

"These are people who used to be soldiers and no longer are," he was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency.

"The informal contract... is that I have volunteered for a certain period of time and once that time is up, then the choice returns to me to decide either to continue my service or to opt out.

"What the Bush administration is doing is just shredding that informal contract."

The national security adviser to the presumptive Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry said the recall was proof of the Bush administration's failure to enlist foreign support in Iraq.

"The fact is that this involuntary call-up is a direct result of the Bush administration's diplomatic failure to get real international help in Iraq," said Rand Beers.

What I also find worrying is Kerry's complete lack of any connection to reality in this matter. International support? LOL. The only "support" he can hope for is that additional countries don't pull out. I mean for crying out loud NATO would not even accept to train Iraqi troops unless it was done outside of Iraq.

It's simply not realistic to expect those that strongly opposed the war to now risk the lives of their soldiers just to bail America out. It's not going to happen.

So instead of dreaming about international support, Kerry should rather be thinking about how in practice the US policy in Iraq (and the "war on terror") should be revised to..um.. work.