The Iraq thread 3

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Sure, thousands of civils have died. I do not count the Iraqi military deaths with the civils because that would greatly increase the number. Also, do the insurgents get counted in the civilian toll? That can increase the total too. Furthermore, like I have said tens of thousand of civilians killed is not likely.

Maybe you are not counting Iraqi millitary as Iraqis..

I`ve said tens of thousand of Iraqis died and from your own words...

Quote[/b] ]Please stop saying that tens of thousands of Iraqis have died because that is not truth but a big (worst case) estimate

Quote[/b] ]You called it a illegal war, right? So, would not Saddam be back in control because he was unrightly booted from his position since it was a illegal war?

This is a joke right?I hope you realised by yourself that the fact that Saddam has to be tried for human crimes has nothing to do with the legal status of the war.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Maybe you are not counting Iraqi millitary as Iraqis..

I`ve said tens of thousand of Iraqis died and from your own words...

D'oh, I thought you were talking about the civils not total...  

[billybob2002 0]

Click me, plz!

^

Good read with outside sources....

[turms 0]

Click me, plz!

^

Good read with outside sources....

Thats total bull, how about catching todays news?

Reuters

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Contrary to the Bush administration's prewar rhetoric, investigators have found no evidence Iraq aided al Qaeda attempts to strike the United States, a commission probing the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks said on Wednesday.

Who would you rather trust? a analysis made by a 18 year old boy or FBI and CIA counterterrorism officials?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Thats total bull, how about catching todays news?

I just said it was a good read.   (just skip the 9/11 stuff if you want)

[blackdog~ 0]

[Akira 0]

Well.......there ya go....

Quote[/b] ]Rumsfeld ordered prisoner held

off the books

Iraqi terror suspect

hidden from

International Red Cross

By Jim Miklaszewski

Correspondent

NBC News

Updated: 7:08 p.m. ET June 16, 2004

Pentagon officials tell NBC News that late last year, at the same time U.S. military police were allegedly abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison, U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld ordered that one Iraqi prisoner be held “off the books†— hidden entirely from the International Red Cross and anyone else — in possible violation of international law.

It’s the first direct link between Rumsfeld and questionable though not violent treatment of prisoners in Iraq.

The Iraqi prisoner was captured last July as deadly attacks on U.S. troops began to rise. He was identified as a member of the terrorist group Ansar al Islam, suspected in the attacks on coalition forces.

Shortly after the suspect’s capture, the CIA flew him to an undisclosed location outside Iraq for interrogation. But four months later the Justice Department suggested that holding him outside Iraq might be illegal, and the prisoner was returned to Iraq at the end of October.

That’s when Rumsfeld passed the order on to Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of U.S. troops in Iraq, to keep the prisoner locked up, but off the books.

In the military’s own investigation into prisoner abuse, Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba said efforts to hide prisoners from the Red Cross were “deceptive†and a “violation of international law.â€

Pentagon officials claim it’s entirely lawful to hold prisoners in secret if they pose an immediate threat. But today, nearly one year after his capture, he’s still being held incommunicado.

In fact, once the prisoner was returned to Iraq, the interrogations ceased because the prisoner was entirely lost in the system.

Human rights critics call it a clear violation of the Geneva Conventions.

Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch said, “If they thought he was such a threat that he could not get Red Cross visits, then how come such a threatening prisoner got lost in the system?â€

Pentagon officials still insist Rumsfeld acted legally, but admit it all depends on how you interpret the law.

© 2004 MSNBC Interactive

[theavonlady 2]

Sorry, Denoir. It's from the news site you love to hate.

Again, I ask, if Iraqis got their wish and the coalition troops left tomorrow, what do you think would happen to Iraq?

Quote[/b] ]Appeal to Osama: 'Holy warriors' are in a race with time

SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM

Wednesday, June 16, 2004

ABU DHABI – Abu Mussib Al Zarqawi is regarded as the most lethal insurgent in Iraq, but he has again appealed for more help.

In a message posted on Islamic websites, a message said to be from Al Zarqawi betrayed hints of desperation at prospects for the Islamic insurgency against the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq. In the nine-page message to Al Qaida leader Osama Bin Laden, Al Zarqawi reiterated that his insurgents were racing against time to destabilize the post-Saddam Hussein government and its security apparatus.

"We are not competing with you," Al Zarqawi said in his message. "We just want to be the head of the spear, a bridge by which the [islamic] community can reach victory."

This was the second message by Al Zarqawi to Bin Laden in less than a year, Middle East Newsline reported. In October 2003, U.S. intelligence intercepted a message by Al Zarqawi to Bin Laden that also appealed for help and warned of victory by an emerging U.S.-sponsored Iraqi government.

In his latest purported message, entitled "The Text of Al Zarqawi's Message to Osama Bin Laden About Holy War in Iraq," Al Zarqawi reviews the Islamic strategy as well as his organization's achievements. He said his group, "Monotheism and Holy War," plans to continue targeting Iraqi police and security forces in the effort to destabilize the U.S.-supported government in Baghdad.

"We are planning to heavily target them during the coming stage before they are in full control," the statement said. "What is coming will be more [attacks], God willing."

On Tuesday, Al Zarqawi claimed responsibility for the previous day's suicide car bombing in Baghdad that killed 13 people, five of them foreign contractors. Al Zarqawi pledged to launch additional attacks.

Western intelligence sources said they could not determine whether Al Zarqawi actually wrote the message. They said the Jordanian-born Islamic insurgent has mastered the use of the Internet for psychological operations against the U.S.-led coalition. The sources cited the videotape posted on Islamic websites of the beheading of U.S. national Nicholas Berg, a contractor in Iraq.

Many of the themes in Al Zarqawi's purported message reflected that of his letter to Bin Laden in 2003. They included the need to spark a civil war in Iraq and the fear that an effective Iraqi security force could end the Islamic insurgency.

"The room for maneuver has started to become smaller," Al Zarqawi said. "The grip is getting tighter around the necks of the holy warriors. With the deployment of soldiers and police, the future has become frightening." Al Zarqawi said his group was trying to organize battalions to take over Iraq before national elections, scheduled for January 2005. Once again, he raised the prospect that Islamic insurgents would fail and either be expelled or killed.

"[if we fail,] we will have to leave for another land to uphold the Islamic banner, or until God chooses us as martyrs," the statement said.

Al Zarqawi said his group has carried out 25 suicide operations against a range of targets in Iraq. He cited Shiites, Iraqi police and security forces and U.S. troops. He said the Shi'ites, the largest sectarian group in Iraq, remain the key to Iraqi stability while he dismissed the Sunnis as politically unaware and divided.

"If we succeed in dragging them [shi'ites] into sectarian war, we could wake up the Sunnis," Al Zarqawi said.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Sorry, Denoir. It's from the news site you love to hate.

Again, I ask, if Iraqis got their wish and the coalition troops left tomorrow, what do you think would happen to Iraq?

eh? most iraqis want US to leave, but not after they do the things they had to. i don't think such over generalization(of leaving troops immediately) works.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I lost my link to the iraqi coalition casualties statistics. Anyone give it back to me?

And secondly, is there any stat out there to the percentage of injuries and their causes.?

[denoir 0]

http://icasualties.org/oif/

Current fatalities count:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">

       US    UK   Other  Total     Avg   Days

Total 836   59   57       952      2.09  456

Total number of wounded (US/DOD):

4878

[theavonlady 2]

Sorry, Denoir. It's from the news site you love to hate.

Again, I ask, if Iraqis got their wish and the coalition troops left tomorrow, what do you think would happen to Iraq?

eh? most iraqis want US to leave, but not after they do the things they had to. i don't think such over generalization(of leaving troops immediately) works.

Quicksand's posted article yesterday says that 55% of those polled want the US to leave immediately.

[theavonlady 2]

Mercy and pity are not in their vocabulary:

Quote[/b] ]Car Bomb Blast Kills 35 People in Iraq

23 minutes ago

By SAMEER N. YACOUB, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A sport-utility vehicle packed with artillery shells slammed into a crowd of people waiting to volunteer for the Iraqi military, killing at least 35 people and wounding 138 on Thursday. A U.S. military officer said the bombing was believed to be a suicide attack.

[denoir 0]

Well, the resistance certainly seems to be consistent in its targeting: politicians, police, military. Those three are fundamental elements that need to work before Iraq can truly be sovereign.

I think that the most astounding part is that there seems to be very little or no intelligence about who the resistance is and what they are fighting for. All we know is that they don't particularly like Americans or Iraqi collaborators. Beyond that, nothing.

[theavonlady 2]

Well, the resistance certainly seems to be consistent in its targeting: politicians, police, military.

And infrastructure and economy.

Quote[/b] ]All we know is that they don't particularly like Americans or Iraqi collaborators.

100s of poor people standing on a sidewalk, hoping for jobs, and you coin them "collaborators"?!

Adn considerring that so many of these terrorists are outsiders themselves, who are they to dictate who's a good Iraqi versus a bad one (as if that's what they're doing)?

[denoir 0]

100s of poor people standing on a sidewalk, hoping for jobs, and you coin them "collaborators"?!

They're looking for jobs in the military. It's not like they're aspiring kindergarten teachers, right?

And I'm not coining the term "collaborators"

Quote[/b] ]

collaborator

n 1: someone who assists in a plot [syn: confederate, henchman, partner in crime] 2: someone who collaborates with an enemy occupying force [syn: collaborationist, quisling] 3: an associate who works with others toward a common goal [syn: cooperator, partner, pardner]

Like it or not, but Iraq is occupied and those collaborating with the occupying force are.. well.. collaborators.

If it's a good thing or not, that's another issue.

Quote[/b] ]Adn considerring that so many of these terrorists are outsiders themselves, who are they to dictate who's a good Iraqi versus a bad one (as if that's what they're doing)?

I don't think that the resistance fighters are outsiders. And if you want to follow the path of naive absolute morality, then you should ask yourself this:

If it was OK for the US to by force overthrow the government of Iraq and in the process killing thousands of civillians, why is it not OK for the Iraqi resistance fighters to do the same?

You say "Mercy and pity are not in their vocabulary" - is it in the US vocabulary? Is it in the vocabulary of any fighting force?

[PiNs_Da_Smoka 0]

Maybe someone should tell the soldiers in Iraq who still think that they are there because of 9/11. And that´s what a lot of them still think, by the way.

Hmm, i thought we were here to "fight terrorism" and "liberate" the iraqi people.... *sarcasm included*

-Insert circus music here-

[theavonlady 2]

Hope all's well, Pins.

Tell us some war stories while we're huddled around the campfire.

[PiNs_Da_Smoka 0]

* PiNs reads the giant OPSEC sign in front of his face*

Sorry avon, but i can't.

[hellfish6 7]

When are you coming home?

[WhoCares 0]

When are you coming home?

a) Another info, he is not allowed to give,

b) due to reinforcing by extending duty cycles probably even unknown to his division staff

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Yeah pins, We hope you are well and remain a mentally stable character (well you never realy were ) Anyhow, tell us if you need shaving cream, moscito-spray, some flipflops, a new digital camera...

[ralphwiggum 6]

When are you coming home?

a) Another info, he is not allowed to give,

depends. such info is not that secret.

Quote[/b] ]b) due to reinforcing by extending duty cycles probably even unknown to his division staff

most likely though. one of my classmate's brother is heading to Iraq, and a neighbor of mine is going there too. and we all think that they will stay there longer.

[ralphwiggum 6]

nice to see you again Pins!

[WhoCares 0]

When are you coming home?

a) Another info, he is not allowed to give,

depends. such info is not that secret.

You might try to derive a bit of that info from these two slides:

Rotation Plan 1 and Rotation Plan 2

However, this info is from before the 'bloody April', in which the cycle extension was decided...

What we get out of those slides is, that Pins Brigade is temp. assigned to the 1st ID (slide 1), which should be out of Iraq until october (slide 2).

On the other hand, if we disregard slide 1 and just look for the emblem of the 2nd ID on slide 2, then it would be still october '04    This abroach would also be supported by this ORBAT, where Pins unit is part of TF Olympia. This TF is based in Fire Base Glory / Camp Marez, Airport Mosul, previously occupied by the 101st Airborne, for which the 2nd ID units were the replacement according to slide 2.

Could anybody follow this???