The Iraq thread 3

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]And who said that their are no non-iraqi fighters in the Fallujah area......

Nobody from what I recall.

A foreign fighter cell doesn`t equall to an army of them that held the "Fallujah citizens hostage" as per Kimmitt sensational claim.

I don`t understand what`s your big fuss about it.Yes there are foreign fighter cells in Iraq,nowhere close to US officials speculated numbers,and nothing close to holding the brunt of the resistance against the occupation.

[Scorpio 0]

Iran denies reports of troop masses.

Ahh well. At least that's over with. I would have really gotten pissed off if they stepped into the country.

[quicksand 0]

Telling the truth...

(I recomand everyone to read the entire article,very intresting things are revealed)

Poll of Iraqis Reveals Anger Toward U.S.

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON - President Bush (news - web sites) is fond of telling Americans they have liberated Iraq (news - web sites) and that the country's future generations will be thankful. The current generation, however, overwhelmingly views U.S. forces as occupiers and wishes they would just leave, according to a poll commissioned by the administration.

The poll, requested by the Coalition Provisional Authority last month but not released to the American public, found more than half of Iraqis surveyed believed both that they'd be safer without U.S. forces and that all Americans behave like the military prison guards pictured in the Abu Ghraib abuse photos.

The survey, obtained by The Associated Press, also found radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is surging in popularity as he leads an insurrection against U.S.-led forces, but would still be a distant finisher in an election for Iraqi president.

"If you are sitting here as part of the coalition, it (the poll) is pretty grim," said Donald Hamilton, a career foreign service officer who is working for Ambassador Paul Bremer's interim government and helps oversee the CPA's polling of Iraqis.

"While you have to be saddened that our intentions have been misunderstood by a lot of Iraqis, the truth of the matter is they have a strong inclination toward the things that have the potential to bring democracy here," he said in a telephone interview Tuesday from Baghdad.

Hamilton noted the poll found 63 percent of Iraqis believed conditions will improve when an Iraqi interim government takes over June 30, and 62 percent believed it was "very likely" the Iraqi police and Army will maintain security without U.S. forces.

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said: "Let's face it. That's the goal, to build those up to the point where they can take charge in Iraq and they can maintain security in Iraq."

The poll was conducted by Iraqis in face-to-face interviews in six cities with people representative of the country's various factions. Its results conflict with the generally upbeat assessments the administration continues to give Americans. Just last week, Bush predicted future generations of Iraqis "will come to America and say, thank goodness America stood the line and was strong and did not falter in the face of the violence of a few."

The current generation seems eager for Americans to leave, the poll found.

The coalition's confidence rating in May stood at 11 percent, down from 47 percent in November, while coalition forces had just 10 percent support. Ninety-two percent of the Iraqis said they considered coalition troops occupiers, while just 2 percent called them liberators.

Nearly half of Iraqis said they felt unsafe in their neighborhoods. And 55 percent of Iraqis reported they'd feel safer if U.S. troops immediately left, nearly double the 28 percent who felt that way in January. Forty-one percent said Americans should leave immediately, and 45 percent said they preferred for U.S. forces to leave as soon as a permanent Iraqi government is installed.

Frustration over security was made worse this spring by revelations of sexual and physical abuse of Iraqis by U.S. guards at the Abu Ghraib prison.

The poll, taken in mid-May shortly after the controversy began, found 71 percent of Iraqis said they were surprised by the humiliating photos and tales of abuse at the hands of Americans, but 54 percent said they believed all Americans behave like the guards.

Anger at Americans was evident in other aspects of the poll, including a rapid rise in popularity for al-Sadr, the Muslim cleric who has been leading insurgents fighting U.S.-led coalition forces.

The poll reported that 81 percent of Iraqis said they had an improved opinion of al-Sadr in May from three months earlier, and 64 percent said the acts of his insurgents had made Iraq more unified.

However, only 2 percent said they would support al-Sadr for president, even less than the 3 percent who expressed support for the deposed Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).

The coalition's Iraq polling of 1,093 adults selected randomly in six cities — Baghdad, Basra, Mosul, Diwaniyah, Hillah and Baquba — was taken May 14-23 and had a margin of potential sampling error of plus or minus 4 percentage points. Crucial details on the methodology of the coalition's polling were not provided, including how samples were drawn.

 

The most recent independent polling by Gallup found more than half of Iraqis want U.S. and British troops to leave the country within the next few months.

An Oxford International poll taken in February found a higher level of optimism than more recent polling taken after months of bombings and other violence. Still, only a quarter of those polled by Oxford said they had confidence in coalition forces to meet their needs, far behind Iraqi religious leaders, police and soldiers.

Hold a damn friggin minute,last I checked USA was under democracy that values the truth,so why is it hidden from public is such a blunt way?

I can not forget how they were braging in January with every opourtunity they had how Iraqis were happier then an year ago and the poll was analized on CNN every 60 minutes or so..

If I were an American I would feel outraged by my gouverment double standards and their premeditated tactic of hiding vital facts from the population!

[theavonlady 2]

If I were an American I would feel outraged by my gouverment double standards and their premeditated tactic of hiding vital facts from the population!

What was hidden?

[quicksand 0]

If I were an American I would feel outraged by my gouverment double standards and their premeditated tactic of hiding vital facts from the population!

What was hidden?

Quote[/b] ]The poll, requested by the Coalition Provisional Authority last month but not released to the American public

[SGTKOPP 0]

dont believe everything u see or hear in the news trust me i know

[theavonlady 2]

If I were an American I would feel outraged by my gouverment double standards and their premeditated tactic of hiding vital facts from the population!

What was hidden?

Quote[/b] ]The poll, requested by the Coalition Provisional Authority last month but not released to the American public

Thanks.

edit: What do you people think would happen if the US were to pull out of Iraq tomorrow?

[EiZei 0]

edit: What do you people think would happen if the US were to pull out of Iraq tomorrow?

Mad max goes middle-east?

[theavonlady 2]

edit: What do you people think would happen if the US were to pull out of Iraq tomorrow?

Mad max goes middle-east?

You mean they'd get crucified?

[quicksand 0]

This is about facts,not about "hearing it in the news"

American citizens voted and are entitled to a transparent democratic gouvernment which will not hold vital information from their grasp for their personal devious intrests.With the risk of repeating myself this is a radical change from January polls which were extensively publicised and unfortunatly even now when they turn the TV on this is what they see:

"Future generations of Iraqis will come to America and say, thank goodness America stood the line and was strong and did not falter in the face of the violence of a few." -Bush

Quote[/b] ]What do you people think would happen if the US were to pull out of Iraq tomorrow?

There is another solution to this crisis.Bush goes in front of the TV and fully appologies for starting this miserable war which was the product of his cabinet fully knowing that Iraq was never a real threat,appologies for the tens of thousands of Iraqis killed during and after the war and promises full compensation for each and every one of them,declares a fix date for US millitary to leave and promises to be subjected to an independent trial for starting an illegal war.

I guarantee you this will stop atleast 80% of the resistance which has the roots from the continuos frustrations suffered by Iraqis,policemans are helping with inteligence,ordinary Iraqis are tiping them when they see US convoys and even the Shi`ites who had most to win from Saddam ousting  are fighting.

Of course this is as probable as US forces leaving tomorrow but no one should dare say there is no other solution.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]There is another solution to this crisis.Bush goes in front of the TV and fully appologies for starting this miserable war which was the product of his cabinet fully knowing that Iraq was never a real threat,appologies for the tens of thousands of Iraqis killed during and after the war and promises full compensation for each and every one of them,declares a fix date for US millitary to leave and promises to be subjected to an independent trial for starting an illegal war.

Please stop saying that tens of thousands of Iraqis have died because that is not truth but a big (worst case) estimate.

Then will can sing and dance with Saddam & co.. Futhermore, we can restore Saddam to his rightful position because he was just a poor innocent man that was attacked by the evil americans and british......

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Please stop saying that tens of thousands of Iraqis have died because that is not truth but a big (worst case) estimate.

So proove me wrong.Amensty International estimates atleast 10.000 civillians killed before the Fallujah siege.This coming from morgue numbers and with no numbers for some provinces.

I also noted that muslim tradition calls for a swift burial so many of the dead haven`t even reached the morgue.

Quote[/b] ]Then will can sing and dance with Saddam & co.. Futhermore, we can restore Saddam to his rightful position because he was just a poor innocent man that was attacked by the evil americans and british......

Hope you realise that this type of comments doesn`t worth waisting anyones breath,instead of providing a well thought contra argument you choose to use a typical cheap sarcastic tone that has no real basis and nothing on topic.

Quote[/b] ]...evil americans and british

Cheap to the final straw..

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]There is another solution to this crisis.Bush goes in front of the TV and fully appologies for starting this miserable war which was the product of his cabinet fully knowing that Iraq was never a real threat,appologies for the tens of thousands of Iraqis killed during and after the war and promises full compensation for each and every one of them,declares a fix date for US millitary to leave and promises to be subjected to an independent trial for starting an illegal war.

Please stop saying that tens of thousands of Iraqis have died because that is not truth but a big (worst case) estimate.

Then will can sing and dance with Saddam & co.. Futhermore, we can restore Saddam to his rightful position because he was just a poor innocent man that was attacked by the evil americans and british......

Thousands of Iraqis have died.

Thousands of Iraqis have died.

Thousands of Iraqis have died.

as a result of the invasion by United States, England, Australia, Poland and friends.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]So proove me wrong.Amensty International estimates atleast 10.000 civillians killed before the Fallujah siege.This coming from morgue numbers and with no numbers for some provinces.

It does not mean they are right, right (estimate)? You put tens which is highly unlikely.

Quote[/b] ]

Thousands of Iraqis have died.

Thousands of Iraqis have died.

Thousands of Iraqis have died.

as a result of the invasion by United States, England, Australia, Poland and friends.

Repeat thousands of Iraqis/others have died +100 times has a result of Saddam rule (including the 90s).

Quote[/b] ]

Hope you realise that this type of comments doesn`t worth waisting anyones breath,instead of providing a well thought contra argument you choose to use a typical cheap sarcastic tone that has no real basis and nothing on topic.

You called it a illegal war, right? So, would not Saddam be back in control because he was unrightly booted from his position since it was a illegal war?

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Repeat thousands of Iraqis/others have died +100 times has a result of Saddam rule (including the 90s).

Remember still on whose side he was during the worst carnage..

Quote[/b] ]

You called it a illegal war, right? So, would not Saddam be back in control because he was unrightly booted from his position since it was a illegal war?

Talk about pulling a strawman.

[billybob2002 0]

Anyway, positive story time about iraqis helping saving a life and courage.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,122864,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

Two Sides to the Picture in Iraq

Wednesday, June 16, 2004

By David Asman

With all the stories of Iraqi soldiers refusing to fight, you may have missed this story buried deep inside the news cycle.

Two weeks ago, U.S. Marines and members of the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps (search) were on a joint patrol near Fallujah when they were ambushed from the rear.

As a Marine was cut down, his Iraqi partners closed ranks around the downed Marine and began returning fire.

They did not try to run away from the line of fire. They stayed with their Marine and with bullets and RPGs flying all around them, the Iraqis pulled the wounded Marine behind a wall, where a Navy corpsman began to treat the Marine.

The Iraqis rejoined the fight and the enemy was dispatched.

The Iraqis received two Navy-Marine Corps Commendation Medals and three Navy-Marine Corps Achievement Medals, each of which included combat "Vs†for valor.

One of the Iraqis spoke of the incident:

“I feel very, very bad the Marine was shot because they are like my brothers now, but I'm ready to go out again. I'm always ready."

Lord knows whether this example of bravery represents the current situation better than examples of cowardice. But fair and balanced, there are two sides to the picture in Iraq, one of which is positive and heroic.

And that's the Observer.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Remember still on whose side he was during the worst carnage..

the west not just the united states. I guess they saw him has lesser of two evils.

[theavonlady 2]

Of general interest: The Iraq Stock Exchange.

[billybob2002 0]

http://countrystudies.us/iraq/83.htm

^^^^

linky on Iraq relationship during Saddam "better" years (bs)...

US was one of the last countries to have "friendly" ties with Saddam.

[Balschoiw 0]

Sabotage halts Iraqi oil exports

Quote[/b] ]Iraqi oil exports have ground to a halt after twin sabotage attacks this week on two key pipelines feeding vital crude terminals in the south.

An Iraqi oil official told Reuters on Wednesday it was unclear when exports, which were running at more than 1.6 million barrels per day (bpd), would resume.

"There are no exports from Basra oil terminal or Khor al-Amaya and it is unclear when they will restart," he said by telephone from Baghdad.

"Both pipelines feeding the terminals have been destroyed."

The attack was the second incident since May 8, when saboteurs blew up Iraq's southern export network, cutting Basra Light exports to one million bpd for nearly two weeks before repairs were completed.

This time round, the damage appears to be more serious.

Iraq was exporting virtually all of its 1.6 million bpd of Basra Light from the key Basra Oil Terminal, while a few tankers were loading at the nearby Khor al-Amaya port.

The official said the two sabotaged pipelines, one 42-inch and the other 48-inch, fed crude from storage tanks to terminals at Basra and Khor al-Amaya.

The official said one line was blown up late on Monday and the other was attacked at around noon on Tuesday.

Benchmark U.S. crude prices for July delivery rose 21 cents to $37.40 a barrel on Wednesday, rebounding from a session low of $37.11, on news the attacks had halted exports from the major pipelines.

Iraq's crude flows from its northern Kirkuk oilfields were also stopped on Tuesday due to sabotage on a pipeline.

Iraqi police said on Wednesday that gunmen killed Ghazi Talabani, a senior official in Iraq's North Oil Company, dealing another blow to the industry.

They know where it hurts.

And this is something that has to be talked about taking into account the recent incidents and change of line in military habits, like Abu Ghraib and others.

Abu Ghraib abuse threatens U.N. vote to renew immunity

Quote[/b] ]The United States faces an embarrassing international debate over the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - and a possible diplomatic defeat - at the United Nations as American officials try to protect U.S. troops in Iraq and elsewhere from prosecution in the International Criminal Court.

The Bush administration, a fierce opponent of the court, wants the U.N. Security Council to renew a resolution, first adopted two years ago, that exempts troops in U.N.-mandated missions from investigation or prosecution by the court.

...

Anger at the United States has been compounded by disclosure of internal Bush administration legal memos offering narrow definitions of what constitutes torture and suggesting that U.S. forces could operate outside the bounds of the international laws of war, rights groups say.

The latest one-year renewal of the resolution expires at the end of June, which coincidentally is the date when American occupation authorities hand over political power in Iraq to a new interim Iraqi administration.

A failure by the United States to gain the renewal could represent one of the first tangible international repercussions of the scandal, which top U.S. officials admit has badly damaged American credibility and moral authority overseas.

About 45 nations have demanded a public debate on the resolution.

"I would expect 25, 30, 35 member states to speak about Abu Ghraib at the public debate," a council diplomat said yesterday. These include representatives of the European Union, the diplomat said

...

China's ambassador to the United Nations, Wang Guangya, citing the prison-abuse scandal, said in late May that the renewal would send "a very bad signal at this time."

...

The United States has yet to conclude an agreement with the new Iraqi authorities that would protect American soldiers from prosecution by Iraqi courts.

I guess it is the time that Bush joins the party.

What is he afraid of so much ?

That soldiers at ICC report that they were ordered to torture from up high ? Or to protect his soldiers like he claims

Bush hasn´t shown much respect for veterans lately, has he ?

Uh well you be the judge

And I hope the US public gets this in the mainstream media:

9/11 panel sees no link between al-Qaida, Iraq

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON -- Bluntly contradicting the Bush administration, the commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks reported today there was "no credible evidence" that Saddam Hussein had ties with al-Qaida.

Maybe someone should tell the soldiers in Iraq who still think that they are there because of 9/11. And that´s what a lot of them still think, by the way.

Reporting back.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Maybe someone should tell the soldiers in Iraq who still think that they are there because of 9/11. And that´s what a lot of them still think, by the way.

So, you been to Iraq? How was it? Read minds? Tell my future, plz....

[EiZei 0]

http://countrystudies.us/iraq/83.htm

^^^^

linky on Iraq relationship during Saddam "better" years (bs)...

US was one of the last countries to have "friendly" ties with Saddam.

Quote[/b] ]

This website contains the on-line versions of books previously published in hard copy by the Federal Research Division of the Library of Congress as part of the Country Studies/Area Handbook Series sponsored by the U.S. Department of the Army between 1986 and 1998.

Hell, they used the helicopters US sold in 1983 to spread chemical weapons..

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Anyway, it was not just the US that had a "friendly" relationship from the west. Some had a longer relationship....

Quote[/b] ]Hell, they used the helicopters US sold in 1983 to spread chemical weapons..

The US cannot control how Iraq uses the helicopters. Furthermore, name the western country that gave a hell of lot more military (jets-missiles-helos-etc.) equipment than the US? Also, what ex-soviet country accounted for 50% of arms sales in the 80s?

Answer for top three arms suppliers in the 80s. (http://www.sipri.se/):

1. Russia

2. China

3. France

and 11. United States

[denoir 0]

It does not mean they are right, right (estimate)? You put tens which is highly unlikely.

Not at all. There were two major organized projects for finding that data. One was by associated press (AP) which looked through records of half of Iraq's hospitals. They counted about 4,000 people. These were however only people that had actually died in the hospitals i.e it was a count of the mortally wounded and that only in half of the hospitals. They did not look at morgue records or similar.

The second organized attempt is the Iraqi body count project that base their results only on things reported in the media. They report around 10,000 dead.

Both the AP and IBC numbers are very incomplete. The AP numbers only include those that actually died inside half of Iraq's hospitals and the IBC numbers only include the deaths specifically reported in the media.

Both projects also only cover civilian deaths. At least 2-3 armored divisions were wiped out and equally many infantry divisions. And that's tens of thousands of men, right there.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Not at all. There were two major organized projects for finding that data. One was by associated press (AP) which looked through records of half of Iraq's hospitals. They counted about 4,000 people. These were however only people that had actually died in the hospitals i.e it was a count of the mortally wounded and that only in half of the hospitals. They did not look at morgue records or similar.

The second organized attempt is the Iraqi body count project that base their results only on things reported in the media. They report around 10,000 dead.

Both the AP and IBC numbers are very incomplete. The AP numbers only include those that actually died inside half of Iraq's hospitals and the IBC numbers only include the deaths specifically reported in the media.

Both projects also only cover civilian deaths. At least 2-3 armored divisions were wiped out and equally many infantry divisions. And that's tens of thousands of men, right there.

Sure, thousands of civils have died. I do not count the Iraqi military deaths with the civils because that would greatly increase the number. Also, do the insurgents get counted in the civilian toll? That can increase the total too. Furthermore, like I have said tens of thousand of civilians killed is not likely.