The Iraq thread 3

[DracoPaladore 0]

I dont see how that new Iraq flag looks like an Isreali flag.  The bottom looks alot like a part of the Swedish flag  

I think its mainly the colours, the white and the blue put together and the half moon thingy against the white background like the Jewish Star of David against the white background.

But thats only what I've heard. Personally, I think the old one looked better.

[Schoeler 0]

That's the thing, its more important to them for them to be right and to be able to gloat than it is to have a stable Iraq or to save lives. It's okay that people are dying because it gives them a reason to criticize America. it's gone way beyond simply disagreeing with the war to just plain ugliness.

I would never wish failure upon anyone's military to the detriment of the soldiers and the nation they were trying to stabilize just so that I could be in a position to gloat.

[bn880 5]

No it is not more important to me at least, what is important are several things: stable and safe Iraq, under proper Iraqi representation, and that Bush and his supporters lose big time on this illegal war. Whether all of the things conflict with each other, not really what most people consider.

And personally I think the 'you' does not include US citizens who were against the war, and not only citizens...

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]That's the thing, its more important to them for them to be right and to be able to gloat than it is to have a stable Iraq or to save lives.  It's okay that people are dying because it gives them a reason to criticize America.  it's gone way beyond simply disagreeing with the war to just plain ugliness.

I would never wish failure upon anyone's military to the detriment of the soldiers and the nation they were trying to stabilize just so that I could be in a position to gloat

Pointing out the failures does not equal wishing it to fail. And the failures are always pointed out as...well failures.

Accusations such as people wanting it all to go to hell are even lower than the insults TBA and their followers threw in the direction of those opposing the war. It's a disgusting accusation and you should be ashamed of sinking so low.

What you are suggesting - i.e that people that opposed the war would like more civilian deaths so that they could show how right they were - is despicable.

I feel much less contempt for the Bushites and their insults than I do for you right now. Shame on you Schoeler.

[MLF 0]

Quote[/b] ]That's the thing, its more important to them for them to be right and to be able to gloat than it is to have a stable Iraq or to save lives.  It's okay that people are dying because it gives them a reason to criticize America.  it's gone way beyond simply disagreeing with the war to just plain ugliness.

I would never wish failure upon anyone's military to the detriment of the soldiers and the nation they were trying to stabilize just so that I could be in a position to gloat

Pointing out the failures does not equal wishing it to fail. And the failures are always pointed out as...well failures.

Accusations such as people wanting it all to go to hell are even lower than the insults TBA and their followers threw in the direction of those opposing the war. It's a disgusting accusation and you should be ashamed of sinking so low.

What you are suggesting - i.e that people that opposed the war would like more civilian deaths so that they could show how right they were - is despicable.

I feel much less contempt for the Bushites and their insults than I do for you right now. Shame on you Schoeler.

But people saying that they want Bush to fail in Iraqi is linked to the deaths of Soldiers and Civies along with the country going down the shitter, you can't have one without the other.

Im no Bush fan, well i don't like him at all but i know he won't be here next year (unless he cheats again).

[bn880 5]

Then look at it this way, people who were against the war always have something to look forward to: if shit is going bad and civilians die etc. they can laugh at Bush and his policy. If stuff goes well for Iraqi population they can be happy for them.

[MLF 0]

Yes because i always look forward to civilians dieing, o and btw looks like the Pics of the British soldiers pissing on those iraqi's are fake.

[denoir 0]

But people saying that they want Bush to fail in Iraqi is linked to the deaths of Soldiers and Civies along with the country going down the shitter, you can't have one without the other.

I can only speak for myself, but I have never said that I want Bush to fail. What I want is to shove every failure down his throat so that he won't do such a mistake again in the near future. And that goes for the 85% Americans that supported the war. They should be shown every little bit of it over and over again so that they next time think twice before they support another war adventure.

Bush is failing, that is a fact and that's what he was warned about. What people want and wish for has no consequence on the actual failure, that believe it or not is happening all on its own. What is important is to show this failure so that the same mistakes won't happen again.

[booradley60 0]

*nevermind*

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I don't want to get into it again, but complaining about people who point out how things are going was not what I did.  I am just saying that people who obviously get pleasure from pointing out American failures need to get therapy and are also angering the Americans.

I don't need to disconnect how I feel about Americans from how I feel about our current foreign policy because our current policy is getting my fellow Americans killed.  I don't think a disconnect would be appropriate or possible for me so long as people continue dying and I don't get any joy from seeing this nation or its policies fail simply because it affords me the opportunity to point out how right I was from the beginning.  i think the larger issues of war, death, prosperity for the Iraqi people outweigh personal gratification and ego stroking and I refuse to partcipate in or coutnenance anyone who uses this as an opportunity to stroke their ego.

I don't need to be reminded that this war was a mistake by certain people here over and over and over again, especially when that reminder comes in a pernicious form.  The nightly news and the images of bodies both American and Iraqi are reminder enough.  While I feel that reasoned and informed debate on this subject should be welcomed and is helpful, I think that gloating and America bashing are petty and juvenile forms of behavior that have no place in this forum.  That isn't censorship, it is simple propriety and decorum.  I'm not trying to silence you, all I'm saying is please show a little sensitivity in your criticism.

You are totally right that flaming isnt a accurate basis for a proper discussion.

But see it this way. A war (as we germans know it) isnt a minor thing. People are not talking about a bad fiscal policy here but about WAR, Dying iraqis, and the risk of a destabilised and already very dangerous part of the world. That people loose their objectivity and forget their bad manners is simply an indicator that this has been a sincere error with terrible consequences. Our warnings have been ignored. We were "insulted" as cowards instead of careful and disagreeing partners. If this war stirs up already so many emotions in silly europe, what do you think the consequences are there gonna be for the arab world. Their heads are boiling and this war was totally counterproductive for the war against teror. And the rigidity to admit a minor mistake is another bad feature of your administration that will make things to turn worse in the future. From my point of view I can only tell you: war causes haterage, that is the way it is so dont be surprised about of lack of objectivity, cause the first thing that goes down the drain in a war is objectivity.

Are you seriously surprised that the american forces (as humane as they are) are now totally demonised? I dont know how many arabs live in your neighbourhood but here they are more than just concerned, they are angry. Not because the US brought down Saddam, but because of the arrogance with which we westerners try to show them what HAS to be the right way. If you dont understand that war stirs up emotions and kills objective discussion then you havent quite understood what war means!

You, having lots of relatives in germany, should maybe research in this area a liittle more and you will see that your totally justified arguments, your objevtive perception, are worth nothing once family members have died. Ask yourself why the roadmap in the middle east, as logical as it may be, doesnt succeed! Because people are out of the minds! Full stop

[quicksand 0]

Back from holliday,so...

Quote[/b] ]You were the one claiming your article is the accurate one.

so in other words, you don't lay claim that yours is accurate too right? you are only claming that my version is not as accurate. but it doesn't say how accurate yours is either.

Re-read my posts again.I won`t bother pointing you out your own mistakes when you are clearly incapable of reading my posts properly.

And who was the person telling me that there are days between the articles(which was bs),so the CNN article is definetely more accurate..Oh it was you...

Quote[/b] ]I answered it with my reply that i quote right now. the integrity of a media outlet is dependent upon the source it quotes. instead of asking same question(of denial) again and again, read my statement. you are basically asking same question repeatedly instead of actually discussing the issue.

here's the reason in shorter format if you cannot understand

1)AJ reports the news based on information

2)but the information was NOT a correct one.

3)that would mean that the AJ did not do enough to capture integrity of the article it publishes.

Aren`t you getting tired of trying to avoid my questions?

I`ve asked you as simple as possible.WHY DID YOU SAY AL-JAZEERA STATED IRAQ IS THE MOST DANGEROUS WAR IN ALL TIMES AND COMPARED IT WITH OTHER WARS which was a pure lie.Why did you lied Ralph,care to tell?

2)Why was CPJ article not accurate when they were clearly referring to the present and to active journalist.Read my posts Ralph,read them well,I can`t be arsed to point them out to you when you are comfortably avoiding them.

Quote[/b] ]the choice of words are quite dependent upon the person whether or not you like it. someone from a group will have tendency to use certain words or statement structure. are you denying that there is cultural influence on choice of words?

"Well just to bog things down, Anglo-US is not an ethnic term. As far as i can see its simply an extension of the habit that some have for annoyingly referring to the UK or Britain as 'england'. Nowadays (and perhaps always) English is more a linguistic group than an ethnic one and the 'Anglos' are not some homogeneous 'blonde haired blue eyed' ethnic group (and never have been). US simply refers to the USA and anglo to the UK, presumably seen as some sort of 'english empire'. No different than Franco-US, Russo-US or Sino-US except that the UK is constituted of more parts than England alone (Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland) and so 'anglo' is technically incorrect."

That about said it all.Why can`t you admit that you were wrong when you stated Al-Jazeera uses racist terms when it`s obviously not the truth,are you suffering from ego problems?

Quote[/b] ]then why did YOU ask me to define 'small majority'?

Because from your post you cleary had no idea.You said I was the one claiming a majority of US troops are thugs when it was not true as others pointed out.

Quote[/b] ]i think i'll pull a quicksand here won't pollute this forum by quoting some moron who made the comment in the above link:

How about pulling a Ralph?First I`ll stop reading your posts then I`ll delete words from your sentences and use them to give a totally false picture of yourself and after I`ll post links to articles and bash them for something they didn`t say,fair enough?

It was a discussion between forum members.He brought to my attention that more then 50% of US millitary are abusing Iraqis,so I intrigued asked him more info as I had no idea from where he knew that.Clear?

[theavonlady 2]

How about pulling a Ralph?First I`ll stop reading your posts then I`ll delete words from your statements and use them to give a totally false picture of yourself and after I`ll post link to articles and bash them for something they didn`t say

I would call that wiggumming.

[quicksand 0]

This is far worst then I could have ever expected

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON, May 1 — An Army Reserve general whose soldiers were photographed as they abused Iraqi prisoners said Saturday that she knew nothing about the abuse until weeks after it occurred and that she was "sickened" by the pictures. She said the prison cellblock where the abuse occurred was under the tight control of Army military intelligence officers who may have encouraged the abuse.

The suggestion by Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski that the reservists acted at the behest of military intelligence officers appears largely supported in a still-classified Army report on prison conditions in Iraq that documented many of the worst abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison, west of Baghdad, including the sexual humiliation of prisoners.

The New Yorker magazine said in its new edition that the report by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba found that reservist military police at the prison were urged by Army military officers and C.I.A. agents to "set physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses."

According to the New Yorker article, the Army report offered accounts of rampant and gruesome abuse from October to December of 2003 that included the sexual assault of an Iraqi detainee with a chemical light stick or broomstick.

While reports of abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American and British soldiers have come to light in the last several days, the report cited by The New Yorker indicates a far more wide-ranging and systematic pattern of cruelties than previously reported.

General Karpinski was formally admonished in January and "quietly suspended" from commanding the 800th Military Police Brigade, the New Yorker article reports. while under investigation.

In a phone interview from her home in South Carolina in which she offered her first public comments about the growing international furor over the abuse of the Iraq detainees, General Karpinski said the special high-security cellblock at Abu Ghraib had been under the direct control of Army intelligence officers, not the reservists under her command.

She said that while the reservists involved in the abuses were "bad people" who deserved punishment, she suspected that they were acting with the encouragement, if not at the direction, of military intelligence units that ran the special cellblock used for interrogation. She said that C.I.A. employees often joined in the interrogations at the prison, although she said she did not know if they had unrestricted access to the cellblock.

According to the New Yorker article, by the investigative journalist Seymour M. Hersh, one of the soldiers under investigation, Staff Sgt. Ivan L. Frederick II, an Army reservist who is a prison guard in civilian life, may have reinforced General Karpinski's contention in e-mails to family and friends while serving at the prison.

In a letter earlier this year, Sergeant Frederick wrote, "I questioned some of the things that I saw." He described "such things as leaving inmates in their cell with no clothes or in female underpants, handcuffing them to the door of their cell." He added, "The answer I got was, `This is how military intelligence wants it done.' "

Prisoners were beaten and threatened with rape, electrocution and dog attacks, witnesses told Army investigators, according to the report obtained by The New Yorker. Much of the abuse was sexual, with prisoners often kept naked and forced to perform simulated and real sex acts, witnesses testified. Mr. Hersh notes that such degradations, while deeply offensive in any culture, are particularly humiliating to Arabs because Islamic law and culture so strongly condemn nudity and homosexuality.

General Karpinski said she was speaking out because she believed that military commanders were trying to shift the blame exclusively to her and other reservists and away from intelligence officers still at work in Iraq.

"We're disposable," she said of the military's attitude toward reservists. "Why would they want the active-duty people to take the blame? They want to put this on the M.P.'s and hope that this thing goes away. Well, it's not going to go away."

The Army's public affairs office at the Pentagon referred calls about her comments to military commanders in Iraq.

General Karpinski said in the interview that the special cellblock, known as 1A, was one of about two dozen cellblocks in the large prison complex and was essentially off limits to soldiers who were not part of the interrogations, including virtually all of the military police under her command at Abu Ghraib.

General Karpinski said in the interview that the special cellblock, known as 1A, was one of about two dozen cellblocks in the large prison complex and was essentially off limits to soldiers who were not part of the interrogations, including virtually all of the military police under her command at Abu Ghraib.

She said repeatedly in the interview that she was not defending the actions of the reservists who took part in the brutality, who were part of her command. She said that when she was first presented with the photographs of the abuse in January, they "sickened me."

"I put my head down because I really thought I was going to throw up," she said. "It was awful. My immediate reaction was: these are bad people, because their faces revealed how much pleasure they felt at this."

But she said the context of the brutality had been lost, noting that the six Army reservists charged in the case represented were only a tiny fraction of the nearly 3,400 reservists under her command in Iraq, and that Abu Ghraib was one of 16 prisons and other incarceration centers around Iraq that she oversaw.

"The suggestion that this was done with my knowledge and continued with my knowledge is so far from the truth," she said of the abuse." I wasn't aware of any of this. I'm horrified by this."

She said she was also alarmed that little attention has been paid to the Army military intelligence unit that controlled Cellblock 1A, where her soldiers guarded the Iraqi detainees between interrogations.

She estimated that the floor space of the two-story cellblock was only about 60 feet by 20 feet, and that military intelligence officers were in and out of the cellblock "24 hours a day," often to escort prisoners to and from an interrogation center away from the prison cells.

"They were in there at 2 in the morning, they were there at 4 in the afternoon," said General Karpinski, who arrived in Iraq last June and was the only woman to hold a command in the war zone. "This was no 9-to-5 job."

She said that C.I.A. employees often participated in the interrogations at Abu Ghraib, one of Iraq's most notorious prisons during the rule of Saddam Hussein.

General Karpinski noted that one of the photographs of abused prisoners also showed the legs of 16 American soldiers — the photograph was cropped so that their upper bodies could not be seen — "and that tells you that clearly other people were participating, because I didn't have 16 people assigned to that cellblock."

The photographs of American soldiers smiling, laughing and signaling "thumbs up" as Iraqi detainees were forced into sexually humiliating positions provoked outrage just as the American military was trying to pacify a rising insurgency and gain the trust of more Iraqis before turning over sovereignty to a new government on June 30.

General Karpinski, who has returned home to South Carolina and her civilian life as a business consultant, said she visited Abu Ghraib as often as twice a week last fall and had repeatedly instructed military police officers under her command to treat prisoners humanely and in accord with international human rights agreements.

"I can speak some Arabic," said General Karpinski, a New Jersey native who spent almost a decade as an active duty soldier before joining the Army Reserve in 1987. "I'm not fluent, but when I went to any of my prison facilities, I would make it a point to try to talk to the detainees."

But she said she did not visit Cellblock 1A, in keeping with the wishes of military intelligence officers who, she said, worried that unnecessary visits might interfere with their interrogations of Iraqis.

She acknowledged that she "probably should have been more aggressive" about visiting the interrogation cellblock, especially after military intelligence officers at the prison went "to great lengths to try to exclude the I.C.R.C. from access to that interrogation wing."

She was referring to the International Committee of the Red Cross, which has been given access over time to Iraqi detainees at the prison.

General Karpinski's lawyer, Neal A. Puckett, a former military trial judge, said he believed that she was being made a scapegoat for others in the military, especially for military intelligence officers who knew what was going on in Cellblock 1A.

He said General Karpinski had repeatedly insisted that troops under her command in Iraq receive instruction in proper treatment of detainees, but that despite her best efforts, some reservists joined in the abuse at Abu Ghraib. "All you can do is give training, give guidance and assume that your soldiers are going to follow orders and are not going to become sick bastards," he said.

After the first allegations of abuse circulated earlier this year, Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior American commander in Iraq, ordered sweeping inquiries into whether any commanders — including General Karpinski — should be held responsible. He also ordered a review of policies and procedures at all of the prisons controlled by occupation forces in Iraq.

nytimes.com(requires registering)

This is going to be the bigest scandal of the year.At first it appeared that the soldiers were acting on their own but as I said before facts came in, it was unlikely that the most well guarded prison in Iraq could be the place of such gruseome tortures without higher officials knowing.

In any case such double standards are sickening. There we had TBA accusing Saddam`s regime for inhumanity and especially noting the Mukhabarat for how it treated their prisoners and their tortures techniques and now it has come to light that CIA agents are doing something just as disgusting.

Note also that Abu Gharib is holding POW`s and political detainees.The persons who were tortured are most likely guilty of nothing more then fighting for their country and serving it.Before people start digging up excuses(as impossible as it may seem) how would you feel if your country soldiers would be captured and treated this way?

[MLF 0]

This is far worst then I could have ever expected

This is going to be the bigest scandal of the year.At first it appeared that the soldiers were acting on their own but as I said before facts came in, it was unlikely that the most well guarded prison in Iraq could be the place of such gruseome tortures without higher officials knowing.

In any case such double standards are sickening. There we had TBA accusing Saddam`s regime for inhumanity and especially noting the Mukhabarat for how it treated their prisoners and their tortures techniques and now it has come to light that CIA agents are doing something just as disgusting.

Note also that Abu Gharib is holding POW`s and political detainees.The persons who were tortured are most likely guilty of nothing more then fighting for their country and serving it.Before people start digging up excuses(as impossible as it may seem) how would you feel if your country soldiers would be captured and treated this way?

If you find this distgusting and are shocked that this is happenening, then you are right at the shocked bit, im shocked that the Army Reserves were doing this, i find the pictures distgusting, but i am not supprised the CIA is in on this, they have been doing this kind of think for decades, its just the way the world works, your own countries version of the CIA probally does the same thing to extract information. im not not saying it's right just that im not supprised to see this happening.

Interesting fact, 60% of all Prisoners in the prison where actually innocent and actually have done nothing wrong, but seeing as this wing was under the control of the CIA and other unknown organisations then im guessing that they are the creme de la creme of the so called "bad guys", yea from your point of view they are fighting for there country but from the Coalitions point of view, they are mortering US positions, firing RPG's at convoys, killing contractors/truck drivers, bombing iraqi civilians who work for the police/army and just ordinary Joe iraqi, fighting among civilian crowds so as you can see there are always two sides to it.

[quicksand 0]

In contrast:

Japanese Hostages defend their captors

Quote[/b] ]Despite having been held at gunpoint, threatened with knives and held captive for nine days, two Japanese men who were kidnapped in Iraq expressed sympathy for their captors yesterday, calling them soldiers and resistance fighters.

Noriaki Imai, 18, an aid volunteer, and Soichiro Koriyama, 32, a photojournalist, said they were kidnapped at a petrol station near Falluja after taking a detour from the highway to Baghdad.

"Masked men put us in a car," said Mr Imai, who had graduated from high school two months before."The soldiers blindfolded us and forced us to keep our heads down."

The two, along with a volunteer aid worker, Nahoko Takato, were kidnapped by a previously unknown group which demanded Japan withdraw its troops from Iraq in return for their safety. In a grim video aired repeatedly on Japanese television, the kidnappers manhandled the three at gunpoint and pointed knives at their throats.

The two men said they were treated relatively well most of the time. Mr Imai said the abductors told them to act afraid and to cry during the video, but added that they were rough with them while the cameras were on "and so it was really frightening".

"When they realised we weren't spies, their attitude toward us changed," he said. "A man who called himself 'General' said he was sorry."

Mr Koriyama said he believed the abductors were not terrorists. "They were resistance fighters, defending themselves against US troops."

They did not regret their actions. "As a journalist, it is sometimes important to go to dangerous places," Mr Koriyama said. Mr Imai felt it was important to "see the situation there with my own eyes".

Mr Koriyama also questioned the Japanese government's policy on Iraq. "I wonder if the humanitarian aid Japan is giving is what the Iraqi people really want."

Officials announced this week that the men were being charged about 800,000 yen (Å4,000) each to cover their return to Japan.

I have a hard time deciding who to belive.Kimmitt "ICDC performing extraordinarily in Fallujah" or the innocent hostages who were abducted and for many days didn`t know if they were gonna get to see another day.Once again:the brutal Iraqis indeed...

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]your own countries version of the CIA probally does the same thing to extract information

No MLF, I can assure you our BND doesn´t do such things. I put my hand into fire for this.

Quote[/b] ]Interesting fact, 60% of all Prisoners in the prison where actually innocent and actually have done nothing wrong, but seeing as this wing was under the control of the CIA and other unknown organisations then im guessing that they are the creme de la creme of the so called "bad guys",

Source ? Proof ?

Even if they were "bad guys", does this mean you can do everything with them ? Is that what you are trying to say MLF ?

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]If you find this distgusting and are shocked that this is happenening, then you are right at the shocked bit, im shocked that the Army Reserves were doing this, i find the pictures distgusting, but i am not supprised the CIA is in on this, they have been doing this kind of think for decades, its just the way the world works, your own countries version of the CIA probally does the same thing to extract information. im not not saying it's right just that im not supprised to see this happening.

No,contrary to your opinion obligating prisoners to perform homosexual sex,mutillating them,and having an album photo of you laughing at the tortured prisoners is not how the world works..

Also,in the entire history of my country intelligence organisation(SRI),I`ve never heared of something coming loosely close to what the CIA agents did in the Abu Gharib prison.

[MLF 0]

Quote[/b] ]If you find this distgusting and are shocked that this is happenening, then you are right at the shocked bit, im shocked that the Army Reserves were doing this, i find the pictures distgusting, but i am not supprised the CIA is in on this, they have been doing this kind of think for decades, its just the way the world works, your own countries version of the CIA probally does the same thing to extract information. im not not saying it's right just that im not supprised to see this happening.

No,contrary to your opinion obligating prisoners to perform homosexual sex,mutillating them,and having an album photo of you laughing at the tortured prisoners  is not how the world works..

As you keep pointing out to thers quicksand read the post, The reserves were the one who did the acts on the pictures, under the direction of those who were in charge, they were "softening up" the prisoners and yes this how things are done by the CIA and other organisations that are at this higher a level, they dont ask them nicely to tell them all they know.

Quote[/b] ]Also,in the entire history of my country intelligence organisation(SRI),I`ve never heared of something coming loosely close to what the CIA agents did in Abu Gharib prison

So you have intimate knowledge of every opperation and interrigation that the SRi have participated in? You don't get to see it on the news because its classified and you don't get stupid yokals taking pitchers of it with two thumbs up.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]your own countries version of the CIA probally does the same thing to extract information

No MLF, I can assure you our BND doesn´t do such things. I put my hand into fire for this.

Quote[/b] ]Interesting fact, 60% of all Prisoners in the prison where actually innocent and actually have done nothing wrong, but seeing as this wing was under the control of the CIA and other unknown organisations then im guessing that they are the creme de la creme of the so called "bad guys",

Source ? Proof ?

Even if they were "bad guys", does this mean you can do everything with them ? Is that what you are trying to say MLF ?

I never said it was acceptable, i even said that in my post that it was not right, way to edit to scew my opinion all i said was that i was not shocked its happening. the 60% im not to sure on it, it was either on the radio or on bbc news website, i was not at home so i nvr posted it.

On the intelligence, i dunno how much you know about ur intelligence service, i was making the generalisation that Most of the world's secret services usually use horrible ways of extracting infomation from there subjects

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]As you keep pointing out to thers quicksand read the post, The reserves were the one who did the acts on the pictures, under the direction of those who were in charge, they were "softening up" the prisoners and yes this how things are done by the CIA and other organisations that are at this higher a level, they dont ask them nicely to tell them all they know.

From your own words CIA is conducting illegal operations,that were denied by US gouverments for tens of years.

Do you know that all POWs are protected by Geneva convention signed by all countries,and has specific rules about interrogations,explcitly stating they are to be treated well and under no circumstances should they be tortured.

From nytimes.com article,CIA officers intesely supervised the torturing operations,the questioned cell block being owned by them.

Quote[/b] ]they dont ask them nicely to tell them all they know.

So let`s all just screw the Geneva convention and torture away,as it appears only one side(hint) sticked to it in the treatment of prisoners anyway.

Quote[/b] ]So you have intimate knowledge of every opperation and interrigation that the SRi have participated in? You don't get to see it on the news because its classified and you don't get stupid yokals taking pitchers of it with two thumbs up.

I do know there was a terrible scandal about a man claiming he recived a few punches from officers.

I don`t have inmate knowledge for all interrogations,but from the unclassified documents after the revolution there is nothing that suggests such horendous techniques even in the communism days.

[Balschoiw 0]

As for the sympathy for the the kidnappers. Stockholm syndrome anyone ?

Quote[/b] ]The Stockholm syndrome is a psychological state in which the victims of a kidnapping, or persons detained against their free will - prisoners - develop a relationship with their captor(s). This solidarity can sometimes become a real complicity, with prisoners actually helping the captors to achieve their goals or to escape police.

The syndrome has been named this way after the famous bank robbery of Kreditbanken at Norrmalmstorg, Stockholm which lasted from August 23 to August 28, 1973. (See Norrmalmstorg robbery.) In this case the victims kept on defending their captors even after their 6 days physical detention was over. They showed a reticent behaviour in the following legal procedures too. The term was coined by the criminologist and psychologist Nils Bejerot, who assisted the police during the robbery, and referred to the syndrome in a news broadcast. It was then picked up by many psychologists worldwide.

Famous cases regarded airplane hostages and kidnapped people, such as Patricia Hearst, who after having been a hostage of a politically engaged military organisation (the Symbionese Liberation Army, or SLA), joined it several months after she was freed.

It´s always hard to judge if this psychological phenomenon affects someone or not but it could be.

[denoir 0]

What Gen. Karpinski is telling certainly sounds possible, but on the other hand she has every reason to lie. So one should be cautious with directly believing her statements.

I would however not be surprised if she in fact is telling the truth. My guess would be that the interrogators gained their 'skill' in Afghanistan. Back then it was a lot about anger and revenge so they would have no problem justifying such methods to themselves. And now they have moved to Iraq but kept their habits. That's my theory anyway.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]As for the sympathy for the the kidnappers. Stockholm syndrome anyone ?

Thought about it,but I also know the syndrome is extremly ambiguus and hard to locate.Moreover in this kind of a situation the men in question are not common criminals,hijackers etc. but the other side in a war,and the Japanese were somewhat neutral.

A times reporter was also kidnapped for a short while and stated that the Resistance fighters were clear that if he is able to proove he is not a spy he will be freed.

Quote[/b] ]What Gen. Karpinski is telling certainly sounds possible, but on the other hand she has every reason to lie. So one should be cautious with directly believing her statements.

I agree that a cautious factor should be kept.It also worth noting that she is not the only one with this story.Seargent Frederick also said that CIA wanted it done so as other soldiers.

[quicksand 0]

Another hit from Resistance fighters(not what you would expect)

U.S hostage freed

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.S. hostage Thomas Hamill is free three weeks after television pictures showed him being driven away by armed men following an attack on a convoy in Iraq, the U.S. military said Sunday.

IMO its connected with the end of the siege of Fallujah as a show of good will.

And this

Fallujah celebrates

Quote[/b] ]FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - Soldiers who fought under Saddam Hussein rubbed shoulders with anti-American fighters in Falluja Sunday following a pullback deal with U.S. troops that drew fire from some of Iraq's new leaders.

Thousands of people who fled their homes in the city during a month-long siege of insurgents streamed back in, as U.S. Marines lifted more roadblocks and handed over more positions around Falluja to ex-soldiers led by Major General Jasim Mohamed Saleh, a former officer in Saddam's feared Republican Guard.

Kurds, Shi'ite Muslims and other Iraqis who suffered under Saddam's oppression criticized the U.S. military for cutting a deal that U.S. commanders say is an experiment that has, for now, averted an all-out assault on the city of 300,000.

"If this collapses we are absolutely prepared to do this by force of arms," one senior U.S. officer said. He reiterated U.S. demands that fighters turn over heavy weapons, expel foreign militants and turn in the killers of four American contractors whose grisly, televised deaths sparked the crisis a month ago.

Saleh has a few days to prove his worth, Marines say.

Sporadic U.S. shelling backed up their insistence that they will go on attacking pockets of resistance, which seem to be concentrated in the north of the town, 50 km (30 miles) west of Baghdad in the "Sunni Triangle" heartlands of Iraq's Sunni Muslim minority, which dominated the country under Saddam.

Saleh told Reuters in an interview there were no foreign fighters in Falluja. Meanwhile, some of his several hundred uniformed troops looked on as masked gunmen celebrated "victory" over the Americans.

U.S. officers admit they know little of Saleh's background and concede some of his newly raised force may well be drawn from the ranks of men they fought throughout April.

"We don't know who these people are," one senior U.S. official in Iraq said.

AL I stand corrected.They ARE that stupid..

[WhoCares 0]

Quote[/b] ]your own countries version of the CIA probally does the same thing to extract information

No MLF, I can assure you our BND doesn´t do such things. I put my hand into fire for this.

Remember the Kripo Frankfurt/Main, where the Polizeipraesident (Head of the local police) permitted threatening a kidnapper with physical pain, if he does not disclose where he kept the kidnapped boy? This is already the starting point for officially sanctioned torture and it was just normal police.

We can argue about the neccessary circumstances where the BND or MAD would use torture, but I wouldn't totally exclude it.

Probably we see us tonight at the CiA-Server. There you can put your virtual hand in one of those campfires

[MLF 0]

Quote[/b] ]As you keep pointing out to thers quicksand read the post, The reserves were the one who did the acts on the pictures, under the direction of those who were in charge, they were "softening up" the prisoners and yes this how things are done by the CIA and other organisations that are at this higher a level, they dont ask them nicely to tell them all they know.

From your own words CIA is conducting illegal operations,that were denied by US gouverments for tens of years.

Do you know that all POWs are protected by Geneva convention signed by all countries,and has specific rules about interrogations,explcitly stating they are to be treated well and under no circumstances should they be tortured.

From nytimes.com article,CIA officers intesely supervised the torturing operations,the questioned cell block being owned by them.

Quote[/b] ]they dont ask them nicely to tell them all they know.

So let`s all just screw the Geneva convention and torture away,as it appears only one side(hint) sticked to it in the treatment of prisoners anyway.

Quote[/b] ]So you have intimate knowledge of every opperation and interrigation that the SRi have participated in? You don't get to see it on the news because its classified and you don't get stupid yokals taking pitchers of it with two thumbs up.

I do know there was a terrible scandal about a man claiming he recived a few punches from officers.

I don`t have inmate knowledge for all interrogations,but from the unclassified documents after the revolution there is nothing that suggests such horendous techniques even in the communism days.

Yes the CIA has done many terrible things and yes geneva convention states all the fairness of war, but it comes down to all means neccesary when it comes to the extraction of information from detainess, IM NOT SAYING IT'S RIGHT but it happens and tbh there aint much you can do about, these Reserves will be punished, branded for life with a dishonerable discharge but the CIA officers probally wont be punished.

lol the fact that they killed one of the italians, they held knifes to there throats etc etc, did they allow red cross rep's to visit them?

I doubt a punch was the worst thing that happened to them, IIRC most detainees from the former communist Russia could not tell there story after being detaine if you catch my drift.

Remeber Quicksand take your own advice and read my post and comprehend it, I'm not saying i think it's right nor am i defending the actions of those who performed these said action, i'm merely stating that it happens around the world and the only reason your hearing about it is that some yokals took pictures, to repeat i'm not justifying it just merely saying it happens and there aint nothing you can do to stop it.