The Iraq thread 3

[walker 0]

Hi Albert Schweizer

An intresting work of fiction but this is a fact based thread  please keep to facts.

As I keep saying TBA has not been recieving a pure intelligence feed. The intelligence is routed through The Office of Special Plans.

Read things to get it straight Rumsfeld never asked Tennet to give them fake intel. Instead TBA set up The Office of Special Plans.

The CIA, Pentagon and other intelligence feeds then send their reports to The Office of Special Plans. The Office of Special Plans then cherry pick the bits TBA want to hear. The Office of Special Plans then write the kind of Intelligence reports TBA want to see.

It is called plausable deniability. It would work but for one thing TBA set up the Office of Special Plans.

If you all want to know how all this came about you have to ask about The Office of Special Plans. They are the smoking gun.  Get a few of those people infront of a Grand Jurry and watch the heads roll.

Kind Regards Walker

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Walker, some points that TBA came foward with just leave a great great space for assumptions: Movie a must see 10MB downloadable too

[denoir 0]

Movie a must see 10MB downloadable too

LMAO Good one.

"..apparently the Rocket Propelled Grenade is the Iraqi equivalent of.. Aloha"  

[ralphwiggum 6]

this image is from the NATO meeting in Prague about 1 yr ago. I think they are pretty much in the same position, but has no idea waht to do for sure.

[bn880 5]

Movie a must see 10MB downloadable too

LMAO Good one.

"..apparently the Rocket Propelled Grenade is the Iraqi equivalent of.. Aloha"

Actually I heard on US or Canadian News that a vast number of Americans now get their news from shows such as Jon's. And let me tell you, it's a blast to watch. (they also get more of their news from the Internet (incl. forums) rather than CNN, NBC etc.)

[walker 0]

Hi all

Nobel Peace prize winner Archbishop Desmond Tutu says Bush and Blair should apologize for their mistaken and immoral war on Iraq.

Quote[/b] ]An immoral war was thus waged and the world is a great deal less safe place than before. There are many more who resent the powerful who can throw their weight about so callously and with so much impunity.

http://argument.independent.co.uk/podium/story.jsp?story=492055

Quote[/b] ]President Bush and Prime Minister Blair would recover considerable credibility and respect if they were able to say "Yes, we made a mistake".

When will the statement of apology to the Iraqi people and famlies of the Dead Coalition soldiers be made? My guess is when they are both thrown from office.

As the US and UK administrations have not come up with the proof of WMD.

It does not matter if the administrations lied (straight criminal behavior)

Or were stupid (criminal negligence)

Both are resignation matters in a true democracy and if an employee dont resign it is up the employers to sack them.

Kind Regards Walker

[miles teg 1]

Walker, some points that TBA came foward with just leave a great great space for assumptions: Movie a must see 10MB downloadable too

LOL!!! That was helarious. The scary thing however is that a good percentage of Americans TOTALLY believe all that stuff he says about how Iraq was so dangerous and how it was an essential part of the war on terror to protect us from that MADMAN.

Even though the White House has openly admitted that they could not find tangible links between Al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's regime, many Americans still believe those links existed. It's really quite remarkable how the White House only needs to make statements that the war in Iraq is an essential part of the war on terror, to cause Americans to make the logical conclusion that Saddam Hussein was working with Al-Qaeda.

To add to this jump in logic, the news and military talk about all the foreign Al-Qaeda people operating in Iraq. I've heard many of my fellow Americans say, "LOOK SEE, AL-QAEDA WAS IN IRAQ". They don't realize that Al-Qaeda is in Iraq now in large numbers because Saddam is gone and American troops (aka-targets for Al-Qaeda and similar Jihadis) are there.

So they buy the line that we are there because we're hunting down all those damn terrorists in Iraq without realizing that we are creating new terrorists just by being there as an occupation force in predominantly Muslim and Arab nation.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[walker 0]

Hi all

Federal prosecutor sues Ashcroft

Lawsuit alleges Justice Dept. interfered with terrorism case.

Once again The White House

Quote[/b] ]exaggerated results in the war on terrorism.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4285619/

As a result a terrorism case is jepordised.

Someone blows the whistle on The White House.

And once again The White House risks the life of an intelligence asset to do a bit of retaliation for somone whistle blowing on them. Any one see a pattern here?

Quote[/b] ]Convertino also accused Justice officials of intentionally divulging the name of one of his confidential terrorism informants to retaliate against him.

This is just plain wrong.

Fuming Walker

[miles teg 1]

Yeah I just saw that story. That is CRAZY!!! That guy who is suing is a FREAKING FEDERAL PROSECUTOR in terrorism cases. That's REALLY REALLY bad when the FBI's lead prosecutor is suing the FBI.

That just goes to show how screwed up the FBI is under Ashcroft.

Under his direction they've been doing all kinds of crazy things that are directly challenging the constitution such as forcing hospitals to give up records of abortions for example. I got an email about this but I'm still waiting to confirm it.

Here's a link to the organization spread this information:

http://prochoiceaction.org/campaig....91ZaXHW

If this is true this I believe is in direct violation of state and federal laws concerning the privacy of medical records and is a form of intimidation to doctors and clinics conducting abortions as well as to the patients who now can be classified as God knows what on some FBI files. Also who knows what information the FBI in all its self-righteousness, they may choose to "accidentally" leak to anti-abortion activists who then will take the law into their own hands Texas style.

Anyhoo...

Back to that story.... it's just nuts. If that isn't a good reason to get rid of this awful Bush administration, I don't know what is. It's just another symptom of how screwed up this administration is.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4287332/

Quote[/b] ]

FORT LEWIS, Wash. - A Stryker Brigade combat team closed in on the town of Salia. The target was an insurgent leader, Mohammad Mustafa. “Mustafa himself is probably armed and probably has several bodyguards,†said Col. Robert Brown.

But as real as it appears — this is not Iraq.

It’s a U.S. Army training facility at Fort Lewis, Wash., where troops are getting a hard lesson in the cultural realities and attitudes they’ll find in Iraq. It’s training so authentic that there are Iraqi nationals brought in to face the U.S. troops. “They teach us the cultural awareness that if you have role players from the United States, you just don’t get it,†Brown said.

In one scenario, the Iraqis are outraged that American troops have invaded their town. An interpreter tells a soldier, “You guys made a big mistake today. You guys surprised us when you came to our town.†The soldier replied, “Right. I understand.â€

Then, a car bomb explodes, killing several civilians, further inciting the mob.

One soldier said: “It’s only training — but the tension is real.†Another added, “We don’t have enough combat power if they mass on us.â€

Though it all they’re learning how to exert force without posing a threat. It calls for extreme discipline in the face of chaos. Capt. Chris Bachl said: “They’re stressed and had to really evaluate the rules of engagement and determine whether they shoot or don’t shoot.â€

[walker 0]

Hi RalphWiggum

Glad to hear they are doing this. They have needed that cutural and language training since the off.

Kind Regards Walker

[ralphwiggum 6]

This is the image i was looking for along with the one posted above.(from March 11, 2003)

Quote[/b] ]Rumsfeld leaves the White House in a light snow after briefing President Bush Tuesday.

Look at how he is alone and not looking up. perhaps an unsuspecting feeling of fear when the war went wrong overwhelmed him and it manifested itself?

from http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/11/sprj.irq.rumsfeld.worry.list.ap/

[theavonlady 2]

Look at how he is alone and not looking up. perhaps an unsuspecting feeling of fear when the war went wrong overwhelmed him and it manifested itself?

Maybe he's just suffering from incontinence.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]Five American soldiers have been accused of driving a 19-year-old Iraqi civilian to his death in the Tigris river in one of the main centres of resistance to the occupation.

Zeidun Fadhil and his cousin Marwan Fadhil were allegedly taken to a remote spot on the shore and ordered into the river at gunpoint. When they refused, the soldiers were said to have forced them into the river. Zeidun, who could not swim, drowned in the strong current. His cousin survived to tell the story.

A lawyer for the family of the dead man said US soldiers in Samarra told the family there would be a full investigation, and that a military investigator had interviewed the surviving cousin as a witness. Nazar Fadhil, the dead man's uncle and the family lawyer, said the US military had ordered Zeidun's body to be exhumed for an autopsy. He said the family was awaiting the arrival of a forensic pathologist. He also said that the US army had offered the family compensation, but that they had refused it.

Zeidun - full name Zeidun Mamun Fadhil al-Samarai - had become engaged three weeks before his death, and was saving for his wedding. The Independent was shown a letter from his mother, Widad, to President George Bush and to Tony Blair in which she demands a full inquiry into her son's death.

Samarra, a Sunni city and one of the main centres of Iraqi resistance to the American occupation, is seething with anger over the alleged circumstances of his drowning.

The incident happened on the night of 3 January. Zeidun and Marwan, were returning to their home town of Samarra from Baghdad with goods to sell in the back of their pick-up truck: paving stones, clocks and watches. It was a trip they had made many times.

The road south to Baghdad is dangerous because the large numbers of American convoys travelling on it are targeted by insurgents, but Zeidun needed the money for his forthcoming wedding.

They arrived late, close to curfew, and were stopped by an American patrol. After searching the pick-up truck the Americans let the cousins go. But then, according to Marwan, one of the American armoured vehicles followed them, stopped them a second time and ordered the cousins into the back of their vehicle. It was then, Marwan said, that the five soldiers drove him and Zeidun to a deserted spot on the banks of the Tigris, near a dam outside Samarra, and ordered them into the river.

There was a powerful current because water was being let out of the dam, and at first the two young men refused.

The soldiers then pointed their guns at the two men, Marwan alleged, and pushed them into the river. Marwan, who can swim, managed to reach a tree trunk. Zeidun did not get that far. His family did not find his body until 12 days later.

When they found the pair's abandoned truck, it and the goods inside had been crushed. The family has photographs of the damage. The truck looked as if it had been driven over by a heavy vehicle, and the family accusesthe Americans of deliberately driving an armoured vehicle over it, though there are no witnesses to support this.

It is by no means clear that Zeidun Fadhil was intended to die. It is possible he was the victim of an elaborate punishment designed to humiliate the two young men - a punishment that went horribly wrong. Marwan alleged the American soldiers were laughing as they pushed them into the river.

Samarra is part of the so-called "Sunni Triangle", the area including Baghdad which has mounted the strongest Iraqi resistance to the American occupation. US soldiers stationed in Samarra have faced an almost daily onslaught of grenade and roadside bomb attacks.

It appears that the two Fadhil cousins were stopped by the American patrol on the streets soon after curfew began. Zeidun's family insists that he and his cousin arrived in Samarra beforehand, but that they were delayed when their truck was searched by the reconstituted Iraqi army, which is now manning checkpoints for the Americans at the entrances to restive towns such as Samarra.

If the allegations about Zeidun's death are true, it is possible that he and Marwan Fadhil were the victims of American soldiers - worn-down, angry soldiers, who wanted to teach a couple of Iraqis a lesson. If so, it was a lesson that went disastrously wrong.

Zeidun's mother, in her letter to President Bush and Mr Blair, said: "We found his jacket in the river. We shall keep it as a souvenir of the justice my son got from the American soldiers. They came to Iraq under the slogans of democracy and human rights, but in cold blood they wedded my son to death even as he was preparing for his marriage.

"I ask you to open an inquiry. Whatever you do will not bring my son back to life. But maybe this will stop the pain of the other mothers in my country."

The US authorities would not comment on the case yesterday.

Source: Independent

[Balschoiw 0]

I already posted that some pages ago Ace

[Acecombat 0]

Ah ok sorry.

Is this for real though ?

[Balschoiw 0]

As more and more reports like this come in I´m afraid yes.

'British Troops Kicked and Punched Iraqi PoWs' - Report

Quote[/b] ]The soldier told the Sun the Iraqi prisoners were kicked or punched or put into another position, before being taken away for interrogation.

The prisoners begged for mercy and their screams were so loud they kept soldiers in nearby barracks awake, he said.

The soldier said the Iraqi who died had been unable to keep doing the stress positions and had been dumped in a toilet, where he was later found dead.

He told the newspaper he saw him with his hood off and said he had a black eye, broken nose and that it looked like his jaw had been dislocated.

“While that was going on the other prisoners were kept in stress positions, still in blindfolds in the cell house,†the solider told the Sun.

“That was when the beating was going on. Some of the lads were just coming up, booting them in the stomach and punching them.

“It was bang .. bang .. bang; kick .. punch ,, bang. The moans, groans and yells were going for ages.2

Soldiers from the Queen’s Lancashire Regiment have been questioned in Iraq and back in Britain by the Royal Military Police (RMP) since allegations that an Iraqi prisoner was beaten to death, emerged last week.

Still going up the spiral:

Ten Iraqis dead in suicide attack on base

Quote[/b] ]A hail of gunfire from the troops stopped two explosives-laden lorries from entering a Polish military camp south of Baghdad, but triggered the blasts.

The dead included the two drivers and Iraqi civilians in the neighbourhood, coalition officials said. More than 64 people were injured, including at least 32 Iraqis, 12 Filipinos, ten Poles, ten Hungarians and an American.

[Balschoiw 0]

It looks like someone wants to get his ass out of Iraq as soon as possible. If it gets too hot , declare "public" elections before Iraquis smell the toast completely and back out while asking UN troops for help. What a soar person is that Bush ?

U.S.: Iraq deadline fixed

Quote[/b] ]"I hope we will be able to help break the impasse and steer things in the right direction," Annan said of the plan

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/soldiers_armor_040217-1.html

Quote[/b] ]First Sgt. Timothy Beydler oversaw the process and the careful packaging of the thick steel plates for shipping to Iraq. Each piece, he said, is designated for a specific spot on a specific vehicle. "I know when we're sending out missions and these soldiers are going out on the convoy that they're going to have this extra protection," he said, adding, "Our intent is to bring everyone home in one piece."

seems like private sector(or application thereof) is useful

[miles teg 1]

Yeah my old unit is also looking into this... the problem is that its too late because their vehicles have already shipped to Iraq.   The Army needs to seriously look into cheap, but effective solutions for armoring trucks and humvees.

Until then I'm sending my old unit info on using chicken wire, sandbags, scrap iron, ect... to help protect their vehicles.  The problem is that I'm not sure if chicken-wire will detonate the RPG rockets used in Iraq.  During past wars, it was said that chicken wire would either detonate the war head or sometimes defuse the piezo-electric fuze on its tip and thus make it bounce harmlessly off the vehicle.  

But from what I understand, ANYTHING that detonates an RPG away from a light armored vehicle can reduce the severity of the dammage and perhaps even penetration of the vehicle's armor. However if the vehicle is unarmored, it'll still blow through it.

At any rate sandbags are always good and I've told the guys in my unit to buy as many old PASGT vests as possible that they can find on the internet (often for as cheap as $40) becuase they can sit on those and put them beneath their feet and legs (and up against doors) to help absorb shrapnel.

I warned them against trying to use wood because it doesn't work well and the splinters can cause horrific dammage in an explosion.  (Although the Israelies successfully used sandwich armor with wood sandwiched between thin steel plates during the creation of their nation and the fighting against their Arab neighbors during that time).

Anyone else here have any ideas of cheap and simple home-made armor for vehicles or any URL's for info on how to properly weld such panels to military vehicles?    

Also does anyone know of any web sites that have info on how to make spaced armor ideal for stopping older model RPG-7 warheads?

Any info I can send to my friends would be enormously useful because the military isn't telling them crap about such things.

What I'll probably have to recommend is that they "commandeer" or purchase some steel plates from Iraqis

But somehow I don't think the Army is going to let them weld a car door ripped off of some Iraqi's car (and filled scrap metal), to the doors already on their vehicles.  

So hopefully they can scrounge up some "military looking" thick metal panels that'll help limit dammage from road side bombs.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[denoir 0]

The most interesting thing going on now in Iraq is the political process. The most recent debate has been about the type of the elections.

The US wanted a system based on indirect voting through city councils. The Shia of course noticed that the city councils are controled by US loyal personell and demanded direct elections. That would give the Shia majority the power transforming the country into a more fundamentalist religious direction.

The Sunni are trying to prevent that at any cost that doesn't include siding with the US (who they really hate). So they're caught in between and not at all happy about it. It's not a coincidence that most of the attacks in Iraq on US troops occur in Sunni populated areas.

Then we have the Kurds who control northern Iraq. Personally they don't have anything against the US, but their goals are entirely incompatible with what the occupation powers want. They want to break free and form their own country, something that the US would never allow. So they're half-openly hoping that the whole election process will fail and that Iraq will break up.

I don't want to get started on the external pressure involved, not only from the US, but also from Turkey and Iran...

[EiZei 0]

Oh yes, almost every turkish person I have seen goes ballistic upon hearing the word kurd, one can only imagine what would happen if there was a independent kurdish nation right next door suddenly.

[Balschoiw 0]

Kurds will get no souveregnity no matter what. They are terrorists now....

Quote[/b] ]The US said that coalition forces now consider the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) and “affiliates†in north Iraq to be terrorist organizations. This indicates the CPA will support the use of coalition troops against PKK enclaves in northern Iraq, a policy decision long sought by the Turkish government. Paul Bremer, civilian head of the CPA in Baghdad gave this official statement: "President Bush has committed to end the use of Iraq as a terrorist haven. There is no place for terrorism or terrorist organizations in the new Iraq." Bremer also mentioned as PKK "affiliates" the Kurdistan Freedom and Democracy Congress (KADEK) and the Kurdistan People's Congress (aka “Kongra Gelâ€). Turkey has been pressuring the US for an open and unequivocal declaration that the PKK in Iraq is a “terrorist organization.†The US had already called the PKK terrorists, but the situation in northern Iraq was, in Turkey’s view, “politically unsettled.†Some have suggested  that coalition troops and Turkish forces were sharing intelligence about PKK activities in Iraq. Turkey and the US discussed sharing Special Forces and liaison officers if Turkish peacekeepers deployed into Iraq. That did not occur due to Iraqi objections to the presence of large Turkish forces beyond the Iraqi-Turkish northern border region.

And here the opposite side:

Iraqi Kurds reject call to disband militia

Quote[/b] ]SULAIMANIYA: Kurdish leaders in the northern autonomous area are refusing to disband their military forces, the peshmerga, and are pushing for a veto over any deployment of the Iraqi army in their region.

Kurdish officials are proposing that the 50,000-60,000 fighters controlled by the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and the Kurdistan Democratic party, both of which have a seat on the Iraqi governing council, should be transformed into a regional self-defence force similar to the US national guard.

Yes use them for fighting and betray them once again USA. What now ? Want to fight the Kurds ?

This is soo odd as some guys here at forums including me have warned of such developement over 1.5 years ago. And the US are willingly getting into it. Just sick.

[brgnorway 0]

Yes, I've always warned against this situation escalating too.

Seems the problem of power fractions are too complex for US to handle, however this made me laugh though

Quote[/b] ]Turkish peacekeepers deployed into Iraq

Turkish peacekeepers? As ambigous as when US declared the kurds to be "freedom fighters" during Desert Storm. Guess what - not long after the war Turkey didn't like that designation anymore and US turned and called the same kurds "terrorists" .

[ralphwiggum 6]

bg, you are back again