Next time you think sci-fi, think again

[Baron von Beer 0]

*edited* Posted WRT Hubble replacement but was mistaken... newest satellite observatory does not view in visible light spectrum as Hubble does, thought it did. (Spitzer Telescope)

Here are some images it took, thought they were pretty wild. Says none of them are visible in optical light.

http://www.nasa.gov/multime....tf.html

[USSoldier11B 0]

Personally I think the plan for going to Mars and colonizing the moon is assenine. I'm a Republican and a Bush supporter but I think it's severly a waste of time. It will continue to be until and if humanity makes a breakthrough in the speed of space travel. THe lack of organic matter and the absence of tectonic activity pretty much rules out any reason to go to the rock planets. (No tectonic activity means that mineral veins do not form like on earth.) Aside from mining I can't see any reason to colonize an inhospitable rock. The U.S. needs to spend this money on the education system instead.

[Apollo 0]

I am all for space colonization and exploration ,but in these pioneering fase i find it uninterresting to colonize a planet with humans already.IMO ,we should at first further develop Robotics ,then we should send robots all around space to explore ,and also land robots on planets to explore it.Well thats were doing now wit the mars rovers and other space sonde's.It's just ,should we find a very interresting resource to refine on Mars ,then we shouldn't some people to refine it ,but robots.They can easiliy work in the enviroment compared to human beings.Only in later states ,say in 100 or 200 years the infrastructure on Mars will be in place to support human live en masss on hte planet.

[denoir 0]

Personally I think the plan for going to Mars and colonizing the moon is assenine. I'm a Republican and a Bush supporter but I think it's severly a waste of time. It will continue to be until and if humanity makes a breakthrough in the speed of space travel.

How do you think that the breakthrough will happen? That something will fall from the sky? Engineering projects are incemental. Without doing anything our technology won't evolve. Had the steam engine not been invented, we would not have nuclear plants today.

Quote[/b] ]

The U.S. needs to spend this money on the education system instead.

Nah, it won't happen. They'll just waste the money on another useless war on a non-working missile defense system.

Why do we need to explore and colonize other planets? It's really simple - on the long run there's not enough space on earth. The growth of our spieces is exponential and we have a limited area to populate and limited resources.

If anybody should understand the value of exploration, it should be Americans. What would have happened if queen Isabella had decided not to finance Columbus idea? It was a very risky, expensive business with the most likely effect that Columbus would have dropped off the face of the earth. Still, he got his money and discovered America. And that would have also not happened had people not started thousands of years before to build boats and through the centuries improve on that technology.

Colonizing the moon and going to Mars are not something that will give results that will change humanity today. It is however a natural and necessary step. The things we learn and the technology we develop will be the foundation for future more serious and extensive projects.

Let's go back in history again. Europe became a superpower through colonialization and trade that came as a result of exploration. One of the more remarkable projects that went on for over two centuries was the East India Company. It was a combination of a state and privately funded enterprise that went to India, traded and then sold the goods in Europe. In their work, they more exploring than in any other epoch of the human history. It's work had a deep impact on the development of the western civilization. It also acted as a domestic catalyst for science, philosophy and art. Why am I bringing this up? Because every one of the EIC expeditions was more expensive (relative their economy) than each Apollo mission to the moon! It also was far more dangerous and took more time. An expedition to India and back took several years. Many ships went under. Yet, they didn't give up but went on with a project that fundamentally changed our civilization.

These are all long-term projects. You personally won't benefit from it, but your descendants will. And in the end, what do you think history will remember as an relevant event: Humans stepping onto another planet or that you had lower taxes for a while? You tell me what's more worth in the long run.

[denoir 0]

Russia to Mars by 2014?

Quote[/b] ]

In an echo of the Cold War space race, Russia said Thursday that it had the know-how to relaunch its space exploration programs, a day after Washington laid out ambitious plans to return to the Moon and press on to Mars."We have many initiatives from researchers on organizing expeditions to the Moon and Mars," said Nikolai Moiseyev, a deputy director of the Russian Rosaviakosmos space agency.

"Before the end of the year, we intend to develop a federal space program until 2015 and it is possible that such projects would be included," the ITAR-TASS news agency quoted him as saying.

On Wednesday, US President George W. Bush unveiled ambitious plans for the United States to return to the Moon as early as 2015, saying a lunar base would serve as a jumping-off point for manned missions to Mars and "across our solar system."

During the Cold War, Washington and Moscow competed fiercely in space exploration, and many Russians are still intensely proud of Soviet achievements in that field.

The Soviet Union scored a major victory on April 12, 1961, when Yury Gagarin became the first man in space. The Americans struck back eight years later, when Neil Armstrong became the first man to step on the Moon on July

Moscow's space programs had to be considerably scaled back in 1991, when the Soviet Union fell apart and state financing dried up. But as Washington outlined its plans this week, officials here emphasized that though Russia may be short of financial resources for ambitious space programs, it could hold its own in the field of technology and skills.

An official with the institute that developed the Soviet "Lunokhod" (Moonwalker) robot said that scientists have maintained their research and development efforts and could quickly resume construction.

"If Russia decides to revive its lunar program, we would need a year to create a prototype of a new Lunokhod and two to three years to construct the apparatus," Roald Kremnyev, deputy director of the Lavochkin institute, told.

"Russia can overtake USA," an anchorwoman on state television said Thursday, echoing comments the previous day by a top Russian space official who said that Moscow is capable of placing a man on Mars within 10 years at one tenth of the cost of reported US plans.

"Technically, the first flight to Mars could be made in 2014. It would cost around 15 billion dollars (11.7 billion euros) to do it, compared with the American estimate for their project of 150 billion dollars," said Leonid Gorshkov, chief designer with Energia, the Russian space constructor.

And an unnamed official at Energia on Thursday suggested that the United States and Russia should join forces in Mars exploration.

"It would be much more profitable to pool efforts in a manned flight to Mars and the planetary development instead of holding the project independently," the Interfax news agency quoted him as saying.

Russia and the United States have been cooperating in work aboard the International Space Station since it was launched in 1998. After the US grounded its shuttle program following the 2003 Columbia disaster Russian rockets were left as the only way to ferry people and supplies to and from the ISS.

Following Bush's speech, NASA chief Sean O'Keefe spoke by phone with his counterpart at Rosaviakosmos to assure him that the Americans had no intention of withdrawing from the ISS.

"O'Keefe said that there was no talk of NASA withdrawing from the ICC," the Russian agency's spokesman told RIA Novosti.

Following US, Russia Revives Space Program [PRAVDA]

Basically there has been a lot of talk now from Russian officials about seriously restarting its space exploration program. The question is of course if they are serious or if it's just a knee-jerk reaction from Bush's announcement. Talk is cheap, but the Russians have always been a very serious player in space, so one should not dismiss this too easily.

[m21man 0]

The Space Race version 2.0?

[Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0]

What would have happened if queen Isabella had decided not to finance Columbus idea? It was a very risky, expensive business with the most likely effect that Columbus would have dropped off the face of the earth.

I thought they allready knew that the earth was round at that time?

[theavonlady 2]

THEY'VE FOUND LIFE ON MARS!

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

THEY'VE FOUND LIFE ON MARS!        

wow!! But look what you see if you zoom the picture.

Those marsians really have a grate sense of balance.

[denoir 0]

What would have happened if queen Isabella had decided not to finance Columbus idea? It was a very risky, expensive business with the most likely effect that Columbus would have dropped off the face of the earth.

I thought they allready knew that the earth was round at that time?

The scientist knew, but the church maintained at the time that the earth was flat. Don't you know the story of Columbus and the egg

Ralph:

Quote[/b] ]oh that's just f!@#ing great! kill off Hubble for that?

Apparently it was out of safety concerns, and not because of Bush's plan. Funny thing: in the end the Russians may be tasked to bring it down. You see, they can't let it crash because there is a 1:700 chance that it will hit a populated area. NASA hasn't got the technology for an automatic docking, so they can't send a robot either. The Russians do however so in the end it it could be a Russian robot that docks with the Hubble and forces it down in a controlled crash.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]The Space Race version 2.0?

It's comming.The Chinese are constantly pushing themselfs to get on speed with the rest of the world in the space race ,they are somewhat behind now but they will catch up soon and probably surpass the U.S ,Europe and Russia in advancement speed in some time.So if the U.S ,Europe and Russia want to keep their technological edge over China then they better invest a lot in Space programs again.

[Ironsight 1]

It's comming.The Chinese are constantly pushing themselfs to get on speed with the rest of the world in the space race ,they are somewhat behind now but they will catch up soon and probably surpass the U.S ,Europe and Russia in advancement speed in some time.So if the U.S ,Europe and Russia want to keep their technological edge over China then they better invest a lot in Space programs again.

Don't forget India they have plans for men in space.

You're right it's going to be a race again but who will run out of money first?

[Apollo 0]

But then ,Mars it's gravital pull is way lower than that on earth i think (about 6 times less?) ,I bet if you jump on mars while running you could jump over 50 metersJust a guess really ,but i'm sure the gravital pull is way lower than on eart.

I thought the notion of there having been water once on Mars was already widely accepted by scientists though.Anyway i'm not for manned missions ,i do'nt see their use.What does these men have to do there apart from making the point that a man has stood on that planet.We should send out much much more rovers ,but not just to Mars but to other interresting places like Jupiters or Saturns moon's.Though AFAIK some spacecraft with rover is already going for Titan or Europe ,not sure wich one of the two.

Europa seens to be the most interresting one IMO.The planets almost 100% covered in Ice ,however scientists are of the oppinion that beneath the layer of ice there are a number of Oceans wich could have the highest potential for extraterrestial life in our solar system.

Titan is very intereting for various reasons.It's the only moon with an mature atmosphere in the whole solarsystem. (5 other moons have low atmospheres) It is believed that it has water in ice form ,and that the moons core is still active.

from a website:

Quote[/b] ]The Cassini probe, scheduled to reach Saturn in 2004, will map Titan's surface with radar and drop a smaller subprobe named Huygens into Titan's atmosphere at 8.1 degrees North, 208.7 degrees longitude. The Huygens probe may even survive impact with Titan's surface long enough to send back data on conditions there.

[R. Gerschwarzenge 0]

But then ,Mars it's gravital pull is way lower than that on earth i think (about 6 times less?) ,I bet if you jump on mars while running you could jump over 50 metersJust a guess really ,but i'm sure the gravital pull is way lower than on eart.

Mars has a gravity of 0.38g.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]You're right it's going to be a race again but who will run out of money first?

I think Russia and then the U.S .

Once China and India are developed to Western standards ,wich isn't all that far away ,country's like India and China will have much more funds at hand (way more taxpayers) that the U.S and Russia.If the Eu mature's to a point where all European country's lump toghether their funds for a joint space programm ,then i could see it competing to China and India.

It may surprize people that I rather put China and India forward as winners of the next space race ,however these country's are destined to become the worlds most important superpowers within 20 years.

[Apollo 0]

0.38G? I know the gravity on earth is  9.80665 m/s2 ,but how it translate's to G ,i guess earth is 1G?Then mars its gravity would be 40% of that of earth meaning a ball thrown on earth doing 2 meters in distance on earth that ball would do 5 meters on Mars? Seems reasonable if you consider the size of Mars.

One thing is for sure ,if humanbeing is ever to colonize space en mass ,then it will have to redefine a lot of sports if they want to play it on other planets/moons.  

Like putting the basket in Basketball 10 meters high. (who said white men cant jump?)

[denoir 0]

mars: 3.8 m/s^2

[Apollo 0]

Right ,1/6th of earth is actually the gravitation of the moon i think.And Mars is afcourse a lot bigger than the Moon.

I'm very interrested in the Cassini project,and it's due to arrive near Titan this year.

[denoir 0]

Yeah, that's going to be very interesting. All we know about Titan for now is that it has a dense cloud layer of organic goo, which we can't see through. Good prequisites for life

[Apollo 0]

Yeah ,and Cassini will drop a probe named Huyghens in the Atmosphere wich may survive the drop on the surfice given that it's not to hostile.

Quote[/b] ]The Huygens probe

The Huygens probe, supplied by the European Space Agency (ESA) and named after the Dutch 17th century astronomer Christiaan Huygens, will scrutinize the clouds, atmosphere, and surface of Saturn's moon Titan. It is designed to enter and brake in Titan's atmosphere and parachute a fully instrumented robotic laboratory down to the surface. The Huygens probe system consists of the probe itself, which will descend to Titan, and the probe support equipment (PSE), which will remain attached to the orbiting spacecraft. The PSE includes the electronics necessary to track the probe, to recover the data gathered during its descent, and to process and deliver the data to the orbiter, from which it will be transmitted or "downlinked" to the ground.

The probe will remain dormant throughout the 6.7-year interplanetary cruise, except for bi-annual health checks. These checkouts follow preprogrammed descent scenario sequences as closely as possible, and the results are relayed to Earth for examination by system and payload experts.

Prior to the probe's separation from the orbiter, a final health check will be performed. The "coast" timer will be loaded with the precise time necessary to turn on the probe systems (15 minutes before the encounter with Titan's atmosphere), and then the probe will separate from the orbiter and coast to Titan for 22 days with no systems active except for its wake-up timer.

The main mission phase will be the parachute descent through Titan's atmosphere. The batteries and all other resources are sized for a Huygens mission duration of 153 minutes, corresponding to a maximum descent time of 2.5 hours plus at least 3 additional minutes (and possibly a half hour or more) on Titan's surface. The probe's radio link will be activated early in the descent phase, and the orbiter will "listen" to the probe for the next 3 hours, which includes the descent plus 30 minutes after impact. Not long after the end of this three-hour communication window, Cassini's high-gain antenna (HGA) will be turned away from Titan and toward Earth.

btw. another thought: Why sending a much colonists trough space on a long yourny just to make a small outpost on a planet/moon while you could send robots that construct a infertilization clinic on that planet/moon that produce's human's itself?

[denoir 0]

Why sending a much colonists trough space on a long yourny just to make a small outpost on a planet/moon while you could send robots that construct a infertilization clinic on that planet/moon that produce's human's itself?

Robots don't have wombs and are no good at child care.

[Apollo 0]

Well we don't have the technoligy yet for artificial wombs ,nor do we have the robotics technoligy or the propulsion technoligy to bring all this stuff far in a respectable time.However in the (not so distant) future it's conceivable that we will have this technoligy.Definatly robotics and genetic's will see a hughe evolution trough the 21th century IMO ,were already in the starting fase of that evolution.

Just look at it this way.the total amount of cargo that is nessecary to interstellary a small amount of people with life support and all is pretty big ,definatly compared to that of small robot's and a few cell's.Unless Humanbeing is going to discover a propulsion technoligy faster than light it won't do much colonization by people beyond our own solarsystem.I do not doubt that a number of moons and planets within our solarsystem will be inhabited by a good number of colonizers brought their from earth as it relativly not that far.But in interstellar travel ,robots can travel multiple decade's trough space withought much need ,transporting people is a way harder due to nessecaty of advanced ,heavy ,and energy consuming life support module's.

Probably a very small amount of human's could be transported to far away solar system's ,however if they want to inhabit a planet the size of Earth in a short term then bringing in colonists won't make much differance ,the people have to be created there.

But deffinatly economical operations in space will be IMO done purely roboticly.Robots are way more flexible in space than we are ,that gives them a hughe advantage.And more cost efficiant to.

And when it comes to like building colonies in Mars ,i doubt that any human labour will be used to build infrastructure there.

And just the exploration of space ,why use humans for that if A small robot can do it to?

[Acecombat 0]

Irans also launching it owns satellite , does that count?

Jeez it shits me up the wall so much money here and they bloody rulers sodding it off on themselves , with this much money we could have made or buyed our own stuff and worked on it .... ... but thats wishful thinking....

[FSPilot 0]

The Space Race version 2.0?

Only this time it'll hopefully be one of those races where you and your friend (Russia in this situation) have your legs tied in a potato-sack and you have to hobble your way to the moon.

I don't see why everyone's complaining about money here. IIRC NASA isn't getting any new money for this project. They're being tasked to reallocate 11 billion or some dollars to do this. It'll probably take more money than that, but even then I don't see NASA getting a check for this.

[Ironsight 1]

Jeez it shits me up the wall so much money here and they bloody rulers sodding it off on themselves , with this much money we could have made or buyed our own stuff and worked on it ....  ... but thats wishful thinking....

Agree, rulers only need them to get re-ellected, take George Bush after Iraq he needs his nice dreams to get re-ellected!