World war one

[ralphwiggum 6]

in other words, i guess you give credit, or in this case take away one, reflecting upon how others did?

certainly not all veterans are angels, and equally, not all veterans are devils. if someone has to make a very precise definition of which one ot be honored and which to be not, good luck.

I give credit depending on the overall result. If they did something good for the country then I have reason to be thankful. If they on the other hand did something bad for the country then I can through sympathy and understanding stretch to the point that I don't resent them - but hardly be thankful.

yet you are questioning why americans celebrate not one but two holidays for veterans....it's relative denoir. as much as you would love to think that US is the craptacular system, there are people here who think otherwise.

Quote[/b] ]Norway we let go after a democratic referendum.

Quote[/b] ]And third, you're forgetting my plan to remedy the situation by liberating both Finland and Norway

liberate Finland? bah! you just said they were let go through a democratic referendum! this showa what a dictator you are!

Quote[/b] ] First of all no, becuase it was a different country with a different agenda. Second, my service had nothing to do with their failures.

different agenda, but same result(loss), and you claimed that for vietnam, there is nothing to be proud of, and used it as an example of US's actions that is generally not to be proud of. i'm pointing out that Swedish military itself has less than glorious past, based on a few incidents.

[ralphwiggum 6]

I think its a natural step for countries like America to have Veteran Day like traditions. Over the course of modern history, the US has been extremely involved with military actions. War, and soldiers, are a part of America more so than for example Sweden. In a country where most people know or have a relative in the military (or one that has served) it kinda makes sense.

i'd say just about any country in the world would go through same thing. scandinavian nations might have less reasons to celebrate, but more or less, most nations have some sort of veteran's day.

[USSoldier11B 0]

Quote[/b] ]You'll have to explain something to me. Now I fully understand about feeling gratitude to those that that defended your country in its hour of need.

I don't however understand the automatic gratitude that you Americans seem to have to all ex-soldiers - no matter what they faught for and what they achieved. For instance Vietnam where they shot up a remote country, killed many civilians, got killed by the lot and ran off with the tail between their legs. Now I'm aware that it wasn't the individual soldiers' fault, but not blaming them hardly equals to feeling gratitude.

Am I for instance by American rules supposed to feel gratitude to for instance those that fought Sweden's last war with the Russians - a war that we started and lost - and ended up losing Finland.

Or why not take it to a bit more extreme point: Are modern day Germans supposed to be grateful to the Nazi butchers that killed millions and ultimately destroyed Germany as well?

This is not meant as criticism - I'm just trying to figure out a part of your culture that seems very strange to me.

Americans tend to respect those who serve their country. It is an honor and a sacred duty. I swear Denoir, sometimes you remind me Data or Mr. Spock. Germans should respect the soldiers that fought in WWII like the Wermacht. I'm sure the average non-Schutzstaffel grunt only fought because he was told to. Otherwise, no, I would not be proud if I were a German. I resent it very much if you are comparing the U.S. military in any way to the Nazi legions. I also suggest you brush up on your Vietnam conflict history.

[denoir 0]

yet you are questioning why americans celebrate not one but two holidays for veterans....it's relative denoir. as much as you would love to think that US is the craptacular system, there are people here who think otherwise.

WTF? Where did I say anything to that effect?

1. I have not said anything about having one or two or fifty holidays.

2. I have not said anything about US military campaigns in general. On the contrary I said that there were some good ones and some bad ones.

Quote[/b] ]i'm pointing out that Swedish military itself has less than glorious past, based on a few incidents.

No, it was me pointing out to you an example of Swedish military action that I wasn't proud of.

USSoldier:

Quote[/b] ]

Americans tend to respect those who serve their country. It is an honor and a sacred duty.

Regardless of what they do.... Right... I'm not sure if your beliefs are more close to Goebbels-style propaganda or "Yes comrade party secretary". I just don't get it. How can a country that prides itself with individualism go for such totalitarian dogma? Don't you see what utter propaganda bullshit you are being taught? This, the pledge of allegiance, the "we support our troops" etc etc

That's hardcore Soviet-style brainwashing of the masses. You seriously don't see anything wrong with that?

Quote[/b] ] I resent it very much if you are comparing the U.S. military in any way to the Nazi legions.

And where did I do that? But sure why not. They bombed civilians, you bombed civilians. Of course they did other stuff that you didn't do, but there are certainly some comparisons that can be made (they had two legs, you have two legs).

Quote[/b] ]

I also suggest you brush up on your Vietnam conflict history.

Exactly where was I wrong:

Quote[/b] ]

1) Most didn't voluneteer - they were drafted.

2) They didn't get the job done.

3) They killed a lot of civilians.

Look, my point is very simple: If they have done a good thing for their country then by all means be thankful. If they on the other hand did something that was bad for the country then there is not only silly to give them your gratitude but it is destructive as you will be rewarding failure.

[ozanzac 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Americans tend to respect those who serve their country. It is an honor and a sacred duty.

Regardless of what they do.... Right... I'm not sure if your beliefs are more close to Goebbels-style propaganda or "Yes comrade party secretary". I just don't get it. How can a country that prides itself with individualism go for such totalitarian dogma? Don't you see what utter propaganda bullshit you are being taught? This, the pledge of allegiance, the "we support our troops" etc etc

That's hardcore Soviet-style brainwashing of the masses. You seriously don't see anything wrong with that?

Denoir, things like veterans day/rememberance day/ ANZAC day simply don't concentrate on why the soldiers were fighting, but more on what the soldiers sacrificed during times of conflict.

The rememeberence part isn't to recount the government or the policy of the time. It is simply to honour those who survived, remind the youth not to forget the struggles that the soldiers endured, and most importantly remember those who gave the ultimate sacrifice. For Australians, the glory gained on the battlefield during WWI was the first time Australians were a truly united people. Before this, Australians had yet to see anywhere to gain national pride. The soldiers gave us that sense of pride to be an Australian. This was not pumped into the public by the government, but through various forms of media, be it news of the time, poetry of the era or in film.

The main point of days like rememberance is to simply honour the soldiers, the airmen, and the sailors. They were'nt just soldiers, they were fathers, brothers, uncles, cousins, neighbours, nephews and husbands. For a small country population wise like Australia, Everyone personally knew or was related to someone who at least fought in the three major conflicts of our nations history, and everyone knew of at least one fellow countrymen who died during the war. To not acknowlege their sacrifice would be a crime.

The "we support our troops" is definantly not propoganda. You might not support the cause, but to not support the troops is to turn your back on the nations husbands, brothers e.t.c., is criminal. (Though to flout that you do support the troops with bumper stickers e.t.c., us over the top)

Where do you think bikie gangs stemmed from? They were returned soldiers from Vietnam who had been given the cold shoulder and abused on the docks when they came home. The governments of the time deflected the political heat towards the soldiers, yet the soldiers were not responsible for the war. The soldiers were citizens before the war. Yet were not treated so after.

What would be seriously wrong would be to repeat the mistake of not supporting our boys. We don't congratulate them for how many people they killed or how many lives they potentially destroyed on rememberence day. They were fighting a war, whether they (or anyone for that matter) liked it or not, and a part of any war is death.

Rememberance day is to remember those who died, and never forget their sacrifice. Thats why the minutes of silence on the eleveth hour, of the eleventh day, of the eleventh month, is there. To remember, and never forget. Rememberence day is not a celebration of hapiness, far from it.

Having national pride dies not stem from propoganda. Do you have pride in your nation Denoir? Where does it stem from? Propoganda? If it does. I agree with you, that is bullshit.

[Lt_Phoenix 0]

Quote[/b] ]as you said, even Sweden made some bad moves and had to let go of Norway

Finland. Norway we let go after a democratic referendum. Findland we lost after picking a fight with our arch enemy Russia - a fight that we lost badly.

Actually, Sweden almost went to war with Norway in 1905, when Norway wanted independence. Germany and Britain, which were the big superpowers then (along with France and Russia), intervened. Bismarck and his British counterpart (can't seem to remember who) thought that if Sweden and Norway went to war, Britain and Germany would get dragged in to a war in Europe prematurely. The German Schlieffen-plan called for a big military build up before they could go to war. Because France and Britain also were building up their forces, the plan was to be executed no later than 1916.

[Tamme 0]

And third, you're forgetting my plan to remedy the situation by liberating both Finland and Norway  

Noooooooooo!! We don't need liberating. We fought a civil war and two wars against the russkies to finally stand on our own two feet. You swedes can't even play ice-hockey. And your plans would interfere with my plans to liberate Finland from the Social Democrats and the SAK (Central Organisation of Finnish Trade Unions). Then at last the power would belong to The National Coalition Party. (Kokoomus)

[ralphwiggum 6]

yet you are questioning why americans celebrate not one but two holidays for veterans....it's relative denoir. as much as you would love to think that US is the craptacular system, there are people here who think otherwise.

WTF? Where did I say anything to that effect?

1. I have not said anything about having one or two or fifty holidays.

2. I have not said anything about US military campaigns in general. On the contrary I said that there were some good ones and some bad ones.

i guess you are missing the point. i was saying that as much as you think it's wierd that people honor veterans, there are people here who think otherwise.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]i'm pointing out that Swedish military itself has less than glorious past, based on a few incidents.

No, it was me pointing out to you an example of Swedish military action that I wasn't proud of.

yes, and you are the part of the same institution. why take a part of something when you are not proud of it? it's not exactly same as watching Matrix, but still, by refusing to participate, you will be able to not lend your talent to it.

and we all know IKEA does better job of world domination than your military

p.s. i know, i know, i need to cut it with IKEA jokes.

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]it's not exactly same as watching Matrix, but still, by refusing to participate, you will be able to not lend your talent to it.

The difference of course being that he cannot influence the Matrix movie by seeing it, but he CAN influence the military by being a part of it... More so than not being a part of it.

[denoir 0]

i guess you are missing the point. i was saying that as much as you think it's wierd that people honor veterans, there are people here who think otherwise.

Yes and that's why we are debating it, right?  

Now I have no problem with sympathy for what the soldiers went through during various wars, but gratitude? For failures that hurt your country?

The only reason I can see for that is a government driven propaganda machine. Why else would you be thanking people that contributed to doing something bad to your country? Apart from reducing blame for bad things, it serves no purpose. And it's a clear pattern that I see. The flag waving, the "united we stand" crap, the pledge of allegiance and of course you have to assure everybody how you "support the troops" - otherwise people will think you are a bad comarade.. sorry.. patriot.

And for some reason or another I think that America has always been plagued by this. Perhaps becuase in reality you have such a diverse society that some cartoon version of a unified image is drawn. I don't know. What I know is that two other systems that used similar mass demagoguery were the Communist and the Nazi propaganda machines. It smells rather fake, pretty totalitarian and very dogmatic. Now, if you like it that way becuase you have been brain-washed or by choice, that's fine. I just have a hard time reconciliating this with the legendary American individualism. Everybody repeating a mantra about how you love your country and how you support your troops (for whatever cause) seems to me kind of incompatible with that principle.

Quote[/b] ]Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

-Hermann Goering

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]i'm pointing out that Swedish military itself has less than glorious past, based on a few incidents.

No, it was me pointing out to you an example of Swedish military action that I wasn't proud of.

yes, and you are the part of the same institution. why take a part of something when you are not proud of it?

Well, first of all it's not the same institution as we have changed constitutions, kings and military organization since then. But that doesn't matter. Everything has good and bad parts. So does the Swedish military. We have things we are proud of (pillaging Denmark for instance) and some things we are less proud of (getting pillaged by Denmark for instance). We celebrate those that occupied most of Germany and we don't talk about those that lost it. Just because a system has bad parts doesn't mean you should denounce the entire system. You just have to focus on remembering the positive parts and learn from the negative parts. This leads of course nowhere if you insist that all parts are equally good. That means that you will be doing the same mistakes again.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Okay, Denoir. I'll file a petition to rename Veterans Day to "Veterans Who Participated in Successful and Internationally Sanctioned Actions Day". Just sort of rolls off the tongue. Of course, by that rationale, I shouldn't be appreciative of the soldiers who died or were wounded in American defeats, namely: Corregidor, Wake Island, Pearl Harbor, Kasserine Pass, Bunker Hill, Chosin Reservoir, Pusan, etc, etc. I mean, they didn't help America out at all- they just got themselves killed and accomplished nothing. Oh, and of course the soldiers of the 8th Air Force should not be thanked for their service during WWII, as a large number of German civilians died during bombing raids.

I thought I made this sufficiently clear, but I guess I did not. Veterans Day honors the willingness of veterans to serve and sacrifice for their country, and by proxy for their fellow citizens. If you interpret that as wholesale embrasure of some fascist military dogma, well, that's your own ultra-leftist ideology talking. If anything, Veterans Day is one of the most anti-war holidays we have; it reminds us that war is not an endeavor to be entered into lightly, because the cost comes in the blood of our countrymen. Anyhow, I don't especially feel like defending a perfectly benign tradition to someone who amuses himself with nitpicking.

[The Frenchman 0]

@ Nov. 13 2003,16:28)]If anything, Veterans Day is one of the most anti-war holidays we have;

What about Memorial Day?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ Nov. 13 2003,16:28)]If anything, Veterans Day is one of the most anti-war holidays we have;

What about Memorial Day?

@ Nov. 13 2003,16:28)]one of

[denoir 0]

@ Nov. 12 2003,22:28)]Okay, Denoir. I'll file a petition to rename Veterans Day to "Veterans Who Participated in Successful and Internationally Sanctioned Actions Day". Just sort of rolls off the tongue.

You're twisting my words again. I never said anything about Veteran's day or Memorial day. I said about explicitly thanking the souldiers that participated in wars that made your country worse. It's common sense. I give you a car, you say "thank you". I kick you in the balls, and you don't thank me.

Quote[/b] ]Of course, by that rationale, I shouldn't be appreciative of the soldiers who died or were wounded in American defeats, namely: Corregidor, Wake Island, Pearl Harbor, Kasserine Pass, Bunker Hill, Chosin Reservoir, Pusan, etc, etc. I mean, they didn't help America out at all- they just got themselves killed and accomplished nothing.

Absolutely. No more than some desk-clerk who was sitting in Montana during the war.

Quote[/b] ]Oh, and of course the soldiers of the 8th Air Force should not be thanked for their service during WWII, as a large number of German civilians died during bombing raids.

That's fairly irrelevant as it is their contribution to your country we are talking about, not how much they hurt people in other countries.

Quote[/b] ]I thought I made this sufficiently clear, but I guess I did not. Veterans Day honors the willingness of veterans to serve and sacrifice for their country, and by proxy for their fellow citizens.

Yeah, but you went way beyond that. You talked about explicitly thanking them and showing your gratitude.

Quote[/b] ]If you interpret that as wholesale embrasure of some fascist military dogma, well, that's your own ultra-leftist ideology talking.

Actually it's more Soviet-style dogma. Very ultra-leftist style as you are defending the collective of the state at the cost of individual evaluation. I'm very amused that you don't see it. I suppose that when you grow up with it, it's difficult to objectivly analyze it.

Here's a tip for you that might bring you some clarity: Take an American platitude and a Soviet/Communist platitude and make the following replacmentes:

patriot = faithful member of the communist party/comrade

nation = state

god = communist party

constitution = manifest

"Heroes of the State Day honors the willingness of the heroes of the Soviet Union to serve and sacrifice for the state, the communist party and the peopler of the Soviet Union".

"A true patriot would never question the unity of this nation"

"A true communist would never question the unity of the state"

"It is patriotic to serve one's country"

"A good communist serves the state"

Do you want me to compare your pledge of allegiance to the Soviet one? (The words "under God" were added in the US becuase the pledge was nearly identical to the Soviet one and they did not like that)

Children swearing an oath each morning to be loyal to the state/nation.... Don't you think there's something wrong with that picture?

See what I'm getting at? The gratitude you feel towards veterans - even those that have made things worse for you - are a part of the same indoctrination.

Why don't you introduce a memorial day for the police officers of your country. They serve the society and fight outnumbered and outgunned. And they get a lousy pay.

[denoir 0]

Anyhow, has anybody here seen the documentary series about WW2 called "A World at War"?

If you havn't, I recommend you do. It's a 30+ parts BBC production that very much covers the war. It was done in the 70's when a lot of important WW2 figures were still alive and they were all interviewed. Excellent production - it doesn't feel at all outdated.

If you get a chance, see it - it's damn good.

[Major Fubar 0]

My great-grandfather fought in WW1, at the landing at Gallipoli. He survived, and lived up until he was over 90 years old.

It's sad that there are so few WW1 veterans still alive to march in parades these days, but lets hope their families will continue the tradition.

IMHO, WW1 was probably the most hellish war to fight in, especially in the trenches.

Motorhead sum it up in their song 1916:

Quote[/b] ]

16 years old when I went to war,

To fight for a land fit for heroes,

God on my side, and a gun in my hand,

Chasing my days down to zero,

And I marched and I fought and I bled and I died,

And I never did get any older,

But I knew at the time that a year in the line,

Is a long enough life for a soldier,

We all volunteered, and we wrote down our names,

And we added two years to our ages,

Eager for life and ahead of the game,

Ready for history's pages,

And we brawled and we fought and we whored 'til we stood,

Ten thousand shoulder to shoulder,

A thirst for the Hun, we were food for the gun,

And that's what you are when you're soldiers,

I heard my friend cry, and he sank to his knees,

Coughing blood as he screamed for his mother,

And I fell by his side, and that's how we died,

Clinging like kids to each other,

And I lay in the mud and the guts and the blood,

And I wept as his body grew colder,

And I called for my mother and she never came,

Though it wasn't my fault and I wasn't to blame,

The day not half over and ten thousand slain,

And now there's nobody remembers our names,

And that's how it is for a soldier.

[Stag 0]

I give credit depending on the overall result. If they did something good for the country then I have reason to be thankful. If they on the other hand did something bad for the country then I can through sympathy and understanding stretch to the point that I don't resent them - but hardly be thankful.

Finland. Norway we let go after a democratic referendum. Findland we lost after picking a fight with our arch enemy Russia - a fight that we lost badly.

So you feel no gratitude to the bog-standard soldier who went off to fight the war with Russia and died, because (probably through no fault of his own) he lost? He didn't start the war, he only took part on Sweden's behalf.

What must you feel about his comrades that went to fight but actually survived?

Do you believe they didn't do their damndest to fulfil their duty despite the situation their leaders got them into? Did that Man hurt Sweden? Not the platoon, Not the Company, Battalion or Regiment involved, or the "Great Commanders," but just some poor sod who was there because his country expected it of him?

It's men like that the days are there to commemorate.

[Stag 0]

Actually it's more Soviet-style dogma. Very ultra-leftist style as you are defending the collective of the state at the cost of individual evaluation. I'm very amused that you don't see it. I suppose that when you grow up with it, it's difficult to objectivly analyze it.

Here's a tip for you that might bring you some clarity: Take an American platitude and a Soviet/Communist platitude and make the following replacmentes:

patriot = faithful member of the communist party/comrade

nation = state

god = communist party

constitution = manifest

"Heroes of the State Day honors the willingness of the heroes of the Soviet Union to serve and sacrifice for the state, the communist party and the peopler of the Soviet Union".

"A true patriot would never question the unity of this nation"

"A true communist would never question the unity of the state"

"It is patriotic to serve one's country"

"A good communist serves the state"

Do you want me to compare your pledge of allegiance to the Soviet one? (The words "under God" were added in the US becuase the pledge was nearly identical to the Soviet one and they did not like that)

Children swearing an oath each morning to be loyal to the state/nation.... Don't you think there's something wrong with that picture?

See what I'm getting at? The gratitude you feel towards veterans - even those that have made things worse for you - are a part of the same indoctrination.

Why don't you introduce a memorial day for the police officers of your country. They serve the society and fight outnumbered and outgunned. And they get a lousy pay.  

On the contrary; with your attitude I could have seen you having a long career in the NKVD; You could start by manning the Maxim gun behind one of the Red Army's human wave assaults and gunning down those that are pushed back; they are after all running from the enemy, therefore losing, and by your logic, harming The Country.

Rememberance Day or Veteran's day has screw all to do with any nation's Manefesto/Constitution/Whatever. It's about the Individuals. The Unknown Soldier. Remember him?

(Edited for clarification and spelling)

[Major Fubar 0]

Honouring soldiers who served and diued for your country, and dogmatic support of your countries actions, are two totally different issues IMHO.

I always observe Anzac day and Remembrance day here (Australia). My father served in Vietnam, and my great-grandfather fought at Galipoli. But even if I didn't have veterans in my direct family, I would still feel a debt of gratitude to those who served my country in the military. This is no way means I condone every military action Australia has been involved in...I am strongly oppsed to our involvement in the recent Gulf action, and we should never have been involved in Vietnam. (I am always offended, though, by this stereotype that soldiers who served in vietnam were a bunch of babykilling, raping monsters. Everyone who spat on a returned Vietnam vet should be ashamed of themselves...at the very least, they should be ashamed of themselves for being too stupid to differentiate the soldiers from the government who gave the orders)

To me, though, that in no way diminishes the bravery and honour of those who risked (and gave) their lives in service of my country. There is a far cry from honouring returned serviceman and glorifying war.

As for nationalism: I love my country, but I don't dogmatically believe in every decison our leaders make. Most Australians are the same...in fact, I would dare to guess that most people the world over are the same. There is nothing wrong with a sense of national pride, so long as it doesn't cloud your judgement of right and wrong.

[ralphwiggum 6]

i think fubar said what i wanted to say.

Quote[/b] ]And for some reason or another I think that America has always been plagued by this. Perhaps becuase in reality you have such a diverse society that some cartoon version of a unified image is drawn. I don't know. What I know is that two other systems that used similar mass demagoguery were the Communist and the Nazi propaganda machines.

i think you are making an argument of choice. you choose two hated regimes(ok, maybe not communism ) and since they have something similar to what US has, it must be same. but you are disregarding 200 other nations that have military marches and similar days.

Quote[/b] ]The only reason I can see for that is a government driven propaganda machine. Why else would you be thanking people that contributed to doing something bad to your country? Apart from reducing blame for bad things, it serves no purpose. And it's a clear pattern that I see. The flag waving, the "united we stand" crap, the pledge of allegiance and of course you have to assure everybody how you "support the troops" - otherwise people will think you are a bad comarade.. sorry.. patriot.

i think this casts lights into your reasoning lines. you equate everything that has to do with gov't of US to be equal to TBA, which in fact isn't. as fubar said, nationalism and respect for those soldiers are not the same.

Quote[/b] ]Just because a system has bad parts doesn't mean you should denounce the entire system. You just have to focus on remembering the positive parts and learn from the negative parts. This leads of course nowhere if you insist that all parts are equally good. That means that you will be doing the same mistakes again.

there you go. you must admit that US although not absolute, just like any other nations in the world, has good and bad parts. so give US a break, will ya?

from reply to Tex's post

Quote[/b] ]Why don't you introduce a memorial day for the police officers of your country?

cause it' state related. veteran's day is federal holiday, and state LEOs are state level employees. US don't have federal LEO system that controls every aspect of law enforcement. I don't remember FBI handing out speeding tickets.

[denoir 0]

So you feel no gratitude to  the bog-standard soldier who went off to fight the war with Russia and died, because (probably through no fault of his own) he lost? He didn't start the war, he only took part on Sweden's behalf.

Of course I don't feel gratitude - they screwed up. The military did a piss-poor job. I have nothing to be thankful for. I don't blame the individual soldiers but overall they were in a military campaign that was a disaster for Sweden. What do I have to be grateful for?

"Thank you very much for losing Finland. A job well done!"  

Or do you think that the military is absolved from any responsibility? You don't think that there should be any consequences for their actions?

Quote[/b] ]

On the contrary; with your attitude I could have seen you having a long career in the NKVD; You could start by manning the Maxim gun behind one of the Red Army's human wave assaults and gunning down those that are pushed back; they are after all running from the enemy, therefore losing, and by your logic, harming The Country.

Not at all - we're talking about public credit. And in the Soviet Union everybody that died for the state was a hero to be honored. They didn't tell people that they executed people for cowardice. Hell no, even those that were killed by their own were celeberated for making the ultimate sacrifice for the state.

And that's the general attitude that I'm talking about - that you give somebody total absolution just because he served the state/nation.

Quote[/b] ]

(I am always offended, though, by this stereotype that soldiers who served in vietnam were a bunch of babykilling, raping monsters. Everyone who spat on a returned Vietnam vet should be ashamed of themselves...at the very least, they should be ashamed of themselves for being too stupid to differentiate the soldiers from the government who gave the orders)

It was not the government that geve the orders. It was the military - those that you honor that gave the orders. The government only made the decision to start the war. The practical mattes (such as napalming villages) are left to the military - those that you wish to honor. And most important - they lost the fight. As for the whole "babykillers" thing - while it is an unfair generalization (as every generalization is), I can understand it. It's the same principle as saying "fucking murderer" if you (back then) saw a member of the SS or a member of the Gestapo. That individual might have been innocent, but they were part of a machine that did brutal killings. Now I'm not comparing the Vietnam war to what the Nazis did - I'm just illustrating that it's the same principle. And sure, the soldiers that just did their job as they were ordered to got a bad deal. You can respect that. But as I said - it's a far way from feeling sympathy for their sacrifice to actually feeling gratitude.

I can understand sympathy for veterans of failed wars "You took it in the ass for the team, I respect that sacrifice", but hardly "Thank you for defending this great country".

I don't have a problem at all with remembrance day - on the contrary, I think it is good to remember the cost of war. I do however object against thanking people that made no difference to my life or made it worse.

Let me ask all of you this, just for fun - do you feel gratitude to Jessica Lynch?

Quote[/b] ]

i think you are making an argument of choice. you choose two hated regimes(ok, maybe not communism ) and since they have something similar to what US has, it must be same. but you are disregarding 200 other nations that have military marches and similar days.

As I said, I don't have a problem with the days, I have a problem with the dogmatic political corectness that goes along with them. It's when all good patriots/comrades are expected to thank the veterans/heroes of the soviet union, collectivly, like sheep without any individual reflection of who they are thanking and for what. As for other countries, I have not seen any similar attitude in Europe (perhaps France, but still in a bit more subtle way). Why did I bring up USA? I didn't, I responded to Tex' post about him thanking all veterans he knew.

America is interesting as it's supposed to be the exact opposite of the Soviet union, but that in reality you can see how they have a lot in common - at least in style. Now of course there are huge differences between the two systems etc.

Quote[/b] ]

i think this casts lights into your reasoning lines. you equate everything that has to do with gov't of US to be equal to TBA, which in fact isn't. as fubar said, nationalism and respect for those soldiers are not the same.

It's not just TBA. There's a much longer tradition of that style that traces back to a period after WW1. Now 11/9 and TBA has brought this to hysterical levels (and therfor it is hard to not notice). Plus with America today bing the only superpower and the strongest industrial country in the world, it's difficult not to give it extra attention.

There are plenty of wrong things with Sweden, which I'd be very happy to discuss, but I don't think anybody is interested.

Quote[/b] ]there you go.  you must admit that US although not absolute, just like any other nations in the world, has good and bad parts. so give US a break, will ya?

I think that every country is entiteled to a system of their own. I'm just trying to gain some cultural understanding. Because I see this as more or less blind following of dogma, I would like to get insight about how Americans feel about it and if they can explain their beliefs. I'm not trying to change your mind - I'm just saying how the whole thing looks from my corner.

[Stag 0]

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Quote (Wardog @ Nov. 13 2003,00:44)

So you feel no gratitude to the bog-standard soldier who went off to fight the war with Russia and died, because (probably through no fault of his own) he lost? He didn't start the war, he only took part on Sweden's behalf.

Of course I don't feel gratitude – they screwed up.

Trying to put across the concept in the Context of Sweden obviously isn’t working; okay, lets zoom in.

If I remember correctly, was it not yourself that came back from manoeuvres in summer spitting blood because one of the Officers on your side screwed up? I don’t remember the actual details but from your joy I can imagine that his actions would have had dire consequences. A defeat? By your logic, it’s irrelevant how well your own unit did, LOSER! You deserve no recognition for being where you were. You should have stayed home with the majority of your countrymen.

Quote[/b] ]The military did a piss-poor job. I have nothing to be thankful for. I don't blame the individual soldiers but overall they were in a military campaign that was a disaster for Sweden. What do I have to be grateful for?

How about for them being there in the first place, putting their lives on the line? Veteran’s Day and Remembrance Sunday is about those individual soldiers.

Quote[/b] ]Or do you think that the military is absolved from any responsibility? You don't think that there should be any consequences for their actions?

For the individual soldier the consequences are maiming, death, periods of deprivation, and the possibility of their families dissolving while they are away. And those consequences are very real for winner or loser alike.

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On the contrary; with your attitude I could have seen you having a long career in the NKVD; You could start by manning the Maxim gun behind one of the Red Army's human wave assaults and gunning down those that are pushed back; they are after all running from the enemy, therefore losing, and by your logic, harming The Country.

Not at all - we're talking about public credit. And in the Soviet Union everybody that died for the state was a hero to be honoured.

Riiiight. That’s why, in some cases they also arrested the families of soldiers who just had the misfortune to be caught up in an impossible situation

?

Quote[/b] ]They didn't tell people that they executed people for cowardice. Hell no, even those that were killed by their own were celebrated for making the ultimate sacrifice for the state.

And that's the general attitude that I'm talking about - that you give somebody total absolution just because he served the state/nation.

I don’t give them absolution, I give them my gratitude. For putting up with military life, for stepping forward when they were needed, for not staying home, or pissing off to some other country to avoid the draft.

Quote[/b] ]It was not the government that geve the orders. It was the military - those that you honor that gave the orders

No it isn't.

Quote[/b] ]It's the same principle as saying "fucking murderer" if you (back then) saw a member of the SS or a member of the Gestapo.

Actually, if you examine your own stand, you will see that it is yourself that's making this kind of generalisation. If a soldier took part in an unsuccessful action, He's a loser. It doesn't matter that the man personally did; if he came home with a VC, or whatever the award is in Sweden, He LOST.

BTW; In the case of the SS or the Gestapo, I'd say the generalisation was fair. the only one I know of that deserved any respect was that man which was interviewed on that series you mentioned; "The World At War." For you that haven't seen it, he was an SS guard who refused to follow his orders. But even he was a member of an organisation whose main criteria for joining was that you be a member of the Nazi party.

Quote[/b] ]I don't have a problem at all with remembrance day - on the contrary, I think it is good to remember the cost of war. I do however object against thanking people that made no difference to my life or made it worse.

"Guys, we may lose this one. better stay at home and stick your head in the sand."

Quote[/b] ]Let me ask all of you this, just for fun - do you feel gratitude to Jessica Lynch?

She went to war when her country asked her to. Is she responsible for the initial rush of Total Bullshit that followed her rescue? Will her book set the record straight? I don't begrudge her the opportunity that fell into her lap, if that's what you mean.

Quote[/b] ]As I said, I don't have a problem with the days, I have a problem with the dogmatic political corectness that goes along with them. It's when all good patriots/comrades are expected to thank the veterans/heroes of the soviet union, collectivly, like sheep without any individual reflection of who they are thanking and for what. As for other countries, I have not seen any similar attitude in Europe (perhaps France, but still in a bit more subtle way).

So the Veterans should be Guilty until proven innocent?

I don't particularly care about the attitude of the USA and it's reasons for honouring Veterans one way or another. I know why I believe War Veterans are worthy of gratitude and respect. Anybody, and that includes you Denoir who is willing to fill a gap in the line when the consequences are at the least a substandard lifestyle, and at worst an agonising death deserves the thanks of his countrymen. Win or lose, the effort counts for something.

[denoir 0]

If I remember correctly, was it not yourself that came back from manoeuvres in summer spitting blood because one of the Officers on your side screwed up? I don?t remember the actual details but from your joy I can imagine that his actions would have had dire consequences. A defeat? By your logic, it?s irrelevant how well your own unit did, LOSER! You deserve no recognition for being where you were. You should have stayed home with the majority of your countrymen.

Excellent example, I'm glad you brought it up. What do you think my COs said after the excercise?

"Well done chaps. It was a complete failure but I know you did your best"

Not bloody likely. We all got chewed up. We were all part of those manoeuvres and the failure of them reflected upon all of us. And what do you think my civilans friends said? Exactly what I would have said "Well, at least you didn't fuck up." or "Nice way to spend my tax money".

And that's exactly what it was - a complete waste of tax money (apart from the responsible for the fuckup hopefully learning from the failure). I don't want or deserve any credit for being involved in a failed excercise. While a unit under my command performed exemplary, it did not matter because the whole thing was a failure.

It's very simple - just as you give credit to the veterans of WW2 regardless of if they guarded a hen-house in Montana or stormed the Adler's nest using their bare hands, you also associate failure collectivly.

Quote[/b] ]How about for them being there in the first place, putting their lives on the line? Veteran?s Day and Remembrance Sunday is about those individual soldiers.

Absolutely, that's understanding and sympathy for what they went through, but harldy gratitude if the overall result of their actions was a failure.

Quote[/b] ]Riiiight. That?s why, in some cases they also arrested the families of soldiers who just had the misfortune to be caught up in an impossible situation?

That was mostly officers and political brass. But sure. I'm not saying that USA equals the Soviet Union. I'm just drawing a clear parallel about mandatory political correctness in both systems.

Quote[/b] ]I don?t give them absolution, I give them my gratitude. For putting up with military life, for stepping forward when they were needed, for not staying home, or pissing off to some other country to avoid the draft.

Again, gratitude implies that you have them to thank for something. If their contribution made things worse, then it's a bit odd thanking them for it. Right?  

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Quote[/b] ]It was not the government that geve the orders. It was the military - those that you honor that gave the orders

No it isn't.

So, the generals, the colonels etc that made the decisions are not considered to be veterans?

Quote[/b] ] It doesn't matter that the man personally did; if he came home with a VC, or whatever the award is in Sweden, He LOST.

Personal achievements are another matter. We're talking about collective gratitude directed to everybody who at one point wore a uniform. Regardless of what he did. And my point is that if you are assigning credit collectivly then you also have to take into consideration what that collective effor led to.

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"Guys, we may lose this one. better stay at home and stick your head in the sand."

No, more like: "Do a good job and we'll throw you a parade." Implied that if they don't do a good job, you don't throw them a parade.

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I know why I believe War Veterans are worthy of gratitude and respect. Anybody, and that includes you Denoir who is willing to fill a gap in the line when the consequences are at the least a substandard lifestyle, and at worst an agonising death deserves the thanks of his countrymen. Win or lose, the effort counts for something.

I'm doing it all for selfish reasons. Including Kosovo where I went out of curiosity - to get an interesting experience. Plus I got a decent pay. I don't want any gratitude, nor do I deserve any

As for military service, I see it the same way as taxes. It's just another exchange between you as an individual and the society. And I don't see many people recieving thanks just because they pay their taxes.  

[Longinius 1]

Basically what Denoir is trying to say (I think) is that you can be grateful towards individuals for the efforts, but collective gratitude (towards all veterans) no matter how the war went seems a bit iffy. If this is infact what he is saying, then I must agree.

Translated to every day terms, if my company engages in an activity, tries its best but fails, then I wouldnt expect gratitude to be directed towards all employees. In fact, I would be insulted if my performance had been adequate, but everybody recieved the gratitude of management/clients/share holder even though some failed miserably, resulting in the over all project failing.

As a soldier, who in a war managed to still do the job and be proffesional, I doubt I would look fondly on the fact that babykillers, junkies and total crackpots recieved the same respect and gratitude just because they were there. While, at the same time, someone who was working from back home and contributed more to the effort from behind a desk recieved no gratitude because he or she wasnt there.

[EiZei 0]

"Thank you very much for losing Finland. A job well done!"

I thank them.