World war one

[Stag 0]

Basically what Denoir is trying to say (I think) is that you can be grateful towards individuals for the efforts, but collective gratitude (towards all veterans) no matter how the war went seems a bit iffy. If this is infact what he is saying, then I must agree.

Translated to every day terms, if my company engages in an activity, tries its best but fails, then I wouldnt expect gratitude to be directed towards all employees. In fact, I would be insulted if my performance had been adequate, but everybody recieved the gratitude of management/clients/share holder even though some failed miserably, resulting in the over all project failing.

As a soldier, who in a war managed to still do the job and be proffesional, I doubt I would look fondly on the fact that babykillers, junkies and total crackpots recieved the same respect and gratitude just because they were there. While, at the same time, someone who was working from back home and contributed more to the effort from behind a desk recieved no gratitude because he or she wasnt there.

Well, this is a red-letter day; I almost agree with something you have to say.

I'm under no illusions that the majority of people who join the Armed Forces in times of relative peace do it out of Patriotic fervor, or the will to help their countrymen or humanity. I'm just thankful that the forces are there. Anybody who thinks that life would be far better without the military existing is certifiable.

I also believe that soldier is worthy of respect, UNTIL it has been proven otherwise, even if he took part in a total disaster. In this case I definitely believe innocent until proven guilty. But if that irritates some Veterans, so be it. I would rather think the best of our military than believe it's composed of insane drug-snorting incompetent baby killers, which I'm sure would annoy them a lot more. I'm thanking the Unknown Soldier, not the Known War Criminal.

[Major Fubar 0]

Denoir, I'm afraid I just don't get your stance. You shouldn't be grateful to, or honour, soldiers if they were involved in failed campaigns?

So, by that logic, a fireman who runs into a burning house to save people, but through no fault of his own is driven back by the fire and fails, deserves no thanks or merit? How about a paramedic performing CPR on a patient who dies anyway?

[denoir 0]

Denoir, I'm afraid I just don't get your stance. You shouldn't be grateful to, or honour, soldiers if they were involved in failed campaigns?

They can have my sympathy and understanding for what they went through, but not gratitude since they failed. I'm already pushing it beyond reason by not blaming them. Thanking them for doing a bad job is just insane.

You can't have it both ways. Either you thank them collectivly when they do a good job and blame them collectively when they do a bad job or you just look at individual achievements. You can't be grateful to a WW2 veteran that was guarding a hen-house in Montana while at the same time again thanking him for some failed war. Make up your mind: collective credit/blame or individual credit/blame.

The only other alternative is to say that military personel are above any criticism. And that connects it back to the government propaganda Soviet-style part.

Quote[/b] ]So, by that logic, a fireman who runs into a burning house to save people, but through no fault of his own is driven back by the fire and fails, deserves no thanks or merit? How about a paramedic performing CPR on a patient who dies anyway?

Again, we're talking about collective gratitude no matter of the result, not individual achievements. A military failure is a collective failure of the military organization. It's wrong to honor them collectively when they screwed up collectively.

As for your fireman example a more proper one would be this: Firemen rush in to your burning house to save your family. They fireman responsible to connecting the water hose forgets it and because of that the rescue attempt fails and your family burns to death. Would you be thanking the firemen or cursing their bloody incompetence?

[Major Fubar 0]

OK, I see your logic more clearly now, but I don't necessarily agree with it.

In the example you give, of course, if my family died due to the incompetence of an individual fireman, I would feel resentment towards the whole fire department - that's human nature. It doesn't mean it's warranted. In general, despite the occasional screw up, the fire department do a vital job, risking their lives to keep us and our property safe. So, apart from the example you give (where my feelings and judgement would be impaired by emotion rather than logic), yes, I would feel gratitude to the fire department in general.

I feel a debt of gratitude to our troops, past and present. I also feel a similar debt of gratitude to police, firemen, paramedics, emergency services volunteers, doctors, nurses and everyone else who contributes to this country by defending or saving lives. These same people could easily have chosen a better paying and/or safer career...if they did, what state would the country be in? I guess what I'm saying, is that I'm grateful that they are there, that they do the job they do.

This doesn't mean that I unilaterally suport the actions of any of these organisations: the military have made blunders and poor coices; sections of the police force are rife with corruption; a small percentage of doctors are dangerously incomptent or take kickbacks from drug companies. But, as a whole, all of these groups perform vital functions, and generally perform them well. And for that, I am grateful.