Sweden decides

[denoir 0]

Read and weep

Crime statistics in sweden are done per reported crime, not per conviction. So everybody who has ever been charged with a crime is included in the statistics, regardless of what happens to them or if they are convicted or freed.

That has got nothing to do with criminal youths.

Are you reading impared? All reported crimes are registered, regardless if it is youth, adults, seniors or children that are comitting them. The statistics are based per crime, not per criminal. Therefor youth criminals are included in the statistics.

[iNeo 0]

Are you reading impared? All reported crimes are registered, regardless if it is youth, adults, seniors or children that are comitting them. The statistics are based per crime, not per criminal. Therefor youth criminals are included in the statistics.

The thing is that just because they weren't arrested it doesn't mean that the crimes never happened. That's why statistics doesn't tell you the whole story.

[denoir 0]

Are you reading impared? All reported crimes are registered, regardless if it is youth, adults, seniors or children that are comitting them. The statistics are based per crime, not per criminal. Therefor youth criminals are included in the statistics.

The thing is that just because they weren't arrested it doesn't mean that the crimes never happened. That's why statistics doesn't tell you the whole story.

And why would there be any difference between Swedish youth criminals and immigrant youth criminals that get away?

Do you think that immigrants are better "criminal masterminds" so that they get away more often than Swedes?

Do you have any, whatsoever data to support that? Or do you admit that it is a completely baseless accusation?

[iNeo 0]

And why would there be any difference between Swedish youth criminals and immigrant youth criminals that get away?

Do you think that immigrants are better "criminal masterminds" so that they get away more often than Swedes?

Do you have any, whatsoever data to support that? Or do you admit that it is a completely baseless accusation?

I'm not saying there would be a diffrence concerning getting away... I'm saying that immigrated youths in general do more crimes or other BS than Swedes. In Stockholm.

I haven't got any data or statistics but hell it's not hard to see when you're out on the weekends.

[denoir 0]

And why would there be any difference between Swedish youth criminals and immigrant youth criminals that get away?

Do you think that immigrants are better "criminal masterminds" so that they get away more often than Swedes?

Do you have any, whatsoever data to support that? Or do you admit that it is a completely baseless accusation?

I'm not saying there would be a diffrence concerning getting away... I'm saying that immigrated youths in general do more crimes or other BS than Swedes. In Stockholm.

If they did then it would be visible in the statistics. Unless they're getting away with it more often than Swedish youth criminals do.

Quote[/b] ]I haven't got any data or statistics but hell it's not hard to see when you're out on the weekends.

All of my friends are pro Euro. Does that mean that the Yes side will win with 100% to 0? You can't take your specific personal experiences and make them into a general principle.

[iNeo 0]

If they did then it would be visible in the statistics. Unless they're getting away with it more often than Swedish youth criminals do.

I'm saying that Swedes don't have to get away as much cause they don't do as much crimes. Now that sounds like a prejudice but it's of course a generalization.

Quote[/b] ]I haven't got any data or statistics but hell it's not hard to see when you're out on the weekends.

All of my friends are pro Euro. Does that mean that the Yes side will win with 100% to 0? You can't take your specific personal experiences and make them into a general principle.

I'm not saying the criminal youths are 100% immigrants and the criminal Swedes are 0%. And it's not just my own experiences.

Send a blonde Swedish kid into an immigrant dense suburb of Stockholm and let him strafe around for an hour on a Friday or Saturday night. Afterwards ask him how much money and what mobile phone he was robbed on.

Not an unusual situation: A Swedish 15-year-old drives around on his new ~2000€ scooter (moped you know) and suddenly a weekend night he gets stopped and/or beaten up and his scooter stolen. And not by other Swedes for sure.

A Swede in my class said he was alone on the subway one night and a gang of immigrants boarded the same "wagon". They talked shit about some Swedish people and then one of them pointed at him and said "They were like you. Swede-whores." Something like that, I don't exactly remember what he said that they said but they called him a "svennehora" when he wasn't even talking to them.

Etc etc.

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

Ok, back on topic, Euro.

There's something I really want to complain about: opinion polls. They've gone insane - they're polling several times a day. IMO this should not be allowed because it:

1) Influences the decision of people

2) Isn't reliable

All of my boyfriends are pro Euro. Does that mean that the Yes side will win with 100% to 0?

I belive that is because they simply lack the experience in predicting these kind of results. In regular elections every fourth year they usually have fairly similar result to the outcome. That is because they know what groups they generally miss. Eg they usually have to add a little to "Vänsterpartiet" when they release a poll, because for some reason they have trouble finding enough of it's sympathizers when doing those opinion polls.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm not saying the criminal youths are 100% immigrants and the criminal Swedes are 0%. And it's not just my own experiences.

Send a blonde Swedish kid into an immigrant dense suburb of Stockholm and let him strafe around for an hour on a Friday or Saturday night. Afterwards ask him how much money and what mobile phone he was robbed on.

Not an unusual situation: A Swedish 15-year-old drives around on his new ~2000€ scooter (moped you know) and suddenly a weekend night he gets stopped and/or beaten up and his scooter stolen. And not by other Swedes for sure.

A Swede in my class said he was alone on the subway one night and a gang of immigrants boarded the same "wagon". They talked shit about some Swedish people and then one of them pointed at him and said "They were like you. Swede-whores." Something like that, I don't exactly remember what he said that they said but they called him a "svennehora" when he wasn't even talking to them.

Etc etc.

As I said, you should look into nationaldemokraterna. They share your sentiment and love for unfounded accusations. The statistics tells the real numbers and you choose to ignore them because of some prejudices that you have. You are truly nationaldemokrat material.

ps. They say that they are not racists, too.

[iNeo 0]

Things have changed, it's not like when you grew up.

Naive.

There are schools where the national anthem is forbidden on the last day of school.

I used to have great respect for you.

Calling me a racist. Screw you.

[ralphwiggum 6]

yes, the good old 'scenario argument'

how about this?

Quote[/b] ]Not an unusual situation: An Arabic 16-year-old drives and suddenly he gets stopped and/or beaten up and his money and car is stolen. And not by other Arabs for sure.

sounds familiar?

Quote[/b] ]A Swede in my class said he was alone on the subway one night and a gang of immigrants boarded the same "wagon". They talked shit about some Swedish people and then one of them pointed at him and said "They were like you. Swede-whores." Something like that, I don't exactly remember what he said that they said but they called him a "svennehora" when he wasn't even talking to them.

How about this?

Quote[/b] ]CZ 75B has been very accurate for me and consistent. therefore it is the best pistol in the world without any doubt.

your quoted comment is called over generalization.

[denoir 0]

never mind. not worth the time

[iNeo 0]

yes, the good old 'scenario argument'

What do you know about what it's like.

One problem with the internet communuication is that you easily forget who you have on the other side. In this case a 17 year old kid.

That's why I see a side of this that you will never do. But you just don't want to know about that, you just keep denying. Cause you grew up in another environment.

[ralphwiggum 6]

What do you know. No one of you will ever know what it's like. (Directed to ralph)

so i guess you are now claming that the scenario described above is a frequent happening in Sweden?

i'd like to know, if that is true, whether the Swedish gov't is purposely manipulating data to make it look like such instances are not a major problem in sweden.

your 'scenario' happens, but that doesn't mean it is a general incident. you are claming as if those are a generally frequent occurence, which is not.

how about this argument?

Quote[/b] ]On march 1932, a Jewish drunkard vandalized 3 shops in the center of Berlin shopping district. Therefore the gov't will now impose traveling limit for Jewish population.

see the problem? the quoted example is there to show that over-generalization is not a representation of all facts.

[denoir 0]

One problem with the internet communuication is that you easily forget who you have on the other side. In this case a 17 year old kid.

That's why I see a side of this that you will never do. But you just don't want to know about that, you just keep denying. Cause you grew up in another environment.

We live in the same city.

No, but you know what it is: They're teenagers too. It's just a question of the type of expression. You talk trash about immigrant kids on an internet forum and they talk trash about Swedish kids in the subway. No real difference.

There is of course a problem with ghetto building, but at least in Stockholm it's getting better. I've been to Rinkeby and Alby hundreds of times and I've never had any problem whatsoever. On the contrary, I think that Rinkeby is quite charming in its own way as a truly multicultural center.

The issue isn't really about nationality but about socio-economic layers. If you put a lot of people in one single area, don't give them a fair chance at getting jobs and discourage integration in the society then of course that area will have a higher crime rate. And that's regardless if you put immigrants or Swedes.

The key is integration. It's not about if we should recieve more or less immigrants but what chance we give them to integrate into our society.

And lack of integration in certain areas leads to segregation and it becomes "us" vs "them". And that leads to categorical statemets like yours "they're much more prone to crime than we are".

[iNeo 0]

How many times do I have to say that I don't think all immigrants commit crimes. I'm not over-generalizing, and I'm not saying we should kick them all outta the country. But I'm generalizing, wtf else am I supposed to do? Find out about every single crime that has been made by youths the last year in Stockholm and type them down for ya? One thing I'm not doing is exaggerating, that's what you do. You twist and exaggerate everything I post. And call me a racist. Fuck that.

This was an answer to ralph's post again.

[ralphwiggum 6]

for such task of general information, you can rely on gov't data, which proves that there is no difference in crime rate between immigrants and non-immigrants.

and yet, you go on and try to argue on basis of over-generalization

[iNeo 0]

We live in the same city.

But the situation wasn't the same between Swedes and immigrants.

No, but you know what it is: They're teenagers too. It's just a question of the type of expression. You talk trash about immigrant kids on an internet forum and they talk trash about Swedish kids in the subway. No real difference.

They had no reason to call him a "Swede-whore".

At age 15 I was chased by a gang of immigrants together with my friends. You kinda don't feel safe when they start bitching and you know they wear butterflies (knives)..

There is of course a problem with ghetto building [...]

I agree.

I've been to Rinkeby and Alby hundreds of times and I've never had any problem whatsoever.

Of course not. You're 20+ etc.

The key is integration. It's not about if we should recieve more or less immigrants but what chance we give them to integrate into our society.

Key is integration yes. But we shouldn't receive more immigrants as we need to take care of the immigrants that are already here (get rid of the "ghettos") and the unoccupied Swedes too. More unemployment isn't good for Sweden and it isn't good for those that come here and don't get a job, is it?

[Bordoy 0]

Economics:

The best parallel is Finland which has a similar economy to the Swedish. They've done better than Sweden and are pleased with the Euro.

Like i said what about Germanys economical situation?

That's why a posted about Finland, as a counter point to your example.

The economy is in the world is basically bad wherever you look. Determining how bad is very complex and to determine why one country is doing slightly better or worse compared to another is more or less impossible. The Euro is a long-term project. Call me in 50 years and I'll tell you how it turned out

At best the economy in Sweden will get abit better. At worst people may be losing jobs and losing money I would rather not take this chance.

[denoir 0]

We live in the same city.

But the situation wasn't the same between Swedes and immigrants.

I'm talking about today.

Quote[/b] ]

No, but you know what it is: They're teenagers too. It's just a question of the type of expression. You talk trash about immigrant kids on an internet forum and they talk trash about Swedish kids in the subway. No real difference.

They had no reason to call him a "Swede-whore".

Just as you have no reason to claim that thousands of perfectly well-behaving immigrant kids are more prone to crime. No reason at all, which is shown by the statistics.

Perhaps they had bat experiences with some Swedish gang and over-generalized, just as you do.

Quote[/b] ]

I've been to Rinkeby and Alby hundreds of times and I've never had any problem whatsoever.

Of course not. You're 20+ etc.

So you say that it is a youth-related problem only. I don't mean to sound insensitive or condescending, but kids fight and brawl. What's new? Nobody said being a teenager was easy. You'll get through it, as will your immigrant "adversaries". As long as it isn't a nation wide problem in the adult population, it's not really a problem.

Quote[/b] ]Key is integration yes. But we shouldn't receive more immigrants as we need to take care of the immigrants that are already here (get rid of the "ghettos") and the unoccupied Swedes too. More unemployment isn't good for Sweden and it isn't good for those that come here and don't get a job, is it?

It's a bit more complex than that. First of all there are lots of areas where there are workforce shortages. We need teachers, nurses, doctors etc. Secondly, we have a humanitarian responsibility to help refugees. They are in a lot more trouble than the trouble we get by helping them. And third, on a more general note, I'm a firm believer of open societies. I think it is inappropriate and wrong to ban people from entering your country because they are of another skin color or nationality.

[denoir 0]

At best the economy in Sweden will get abit better. At worst people may be losing jobs and losing money I would rather not take this chance.

People are already losing jobs and losing money. Yes, the Eurozone is in dire straits, but so are we. Fortunately it looks like the global economy has started turning. By the time we enter in 2006, things will probably be much better.

[iNeo 0]

We live in the same city.

But the situation wasn't the same between Swedes and immigrants.

I'm talking about today.

I really don't think the immigrant youths have a problem with adult Swedes, at least not in a way that they start fights without a reason.

Just as you have no reason to claim that  thousands of perfectly well-behaving immigrant kids are more prone to crime. No reason at all, which is shown by the statistics.

Perhaps they had bat experiences with some Swedish gang and over-generalized, just as you do.

!

I'm telling you that I'm not saying that every single immigrant youth is a F'ing criminal! I'm saying the crime rate is higher, how many times do I have to repeat that.

So you say that it is a youth-related problem only. I don't mean to sound insensitive or condescending, but kids fight and brawl. What's new? Nobody said being a teenager was easy. You'll get through it, as will your immigrant "adversaries". As long as it isn't a nation wide problem in the adult population, it's not really a problem.

It's a part of the life as a teenager I wouldn't want to miss. But you can't deny that serious violence amongst youths is a problem.

First of all there are lots of areas where there are workforce shortages. We need teachers, nurses, doctors etc.

We already have unoccupied immigrants. Let's give them these jobs if they are qualified or it will be hard to have them here. Let them give room to qualified immigrants that can earn their own money and both give to and take from the country instead of just taking.

Secondly, we have a humanitarian responsibility to help refugees. They are in a lot more trouble than the trouble we get by helping them.

I think it's time for Finland and other countries to receive some. We can't take them all.

I think it is inappropriate and wrong to ban people from entering your country because they are of another skin color or nationality.

Those are not the reasons. They have got to be able to take care of themselves after 2-3 years. Living on social service after 10 years isn't okay. It can't continue this way, you heard it from that English man earlier this year who had made lots of research.

[Gollum1 0]

Secondly, we have a humanitarian responsibility to help refugees. They are in a lot more trouble than the trouble we get by helping them.

I think it's time for Finland and other countries to receive some. We can't take them all.

As a Finn, I agree. Finland receives a ridiculously low number of refugees each year. I would gladly welcome a lot more people (My country is going to have a crisis on its hands as large parts of the work force, the thousands born right after WW2, are retiring.)

And the Far Right in Finland think they have something to complain about, what a joke! Finns outnumber refugees 300:1

What are the corresponding numbers in Sweden?

[Bordoy 0]

You can take some of the Asylum seekers from our country if you want, if not all. I agree with u INeo but its abit hard to unserstand and read all that at the same time.

[EiZei 0]

Secondly, we have a humanitarian responsibility to help refugees. They are in a lot more trouble than the trouble we get by helping them.

I think it's time for Finland and other countries to receive some. We can't take them all.

As a Finn, I agree. Finland receives a ridiculously low number of refugees each year. I would gladly welcome a lot more people (My country is going to have a crisis on its hands as large parts of the work force, the thousands born right after WW2, are retiring.)

And the Far Right in Finland think they have something to complain about, what a joke! Finns outnumber refugees 300:1

What are the corresponding numbers in Sweden?

No chance of getting big amounts of immigrants when this kind of people get into parliament easily.

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

What are the corresponding numbers in Sweden?

No chance of getting big amounts of immigrants when this kind of people get into parliament easily.

Don't forget Bert  

It was a couple of years ago but still...