Sweden decides

[iNeo 0]

I know I didn't calculate in a way that resulted in a unit but it did result in something that showed that the crime rate was higher...

Remember I meant the youths that may not have been convicted but are criminals or on the very edge to criminals. Say what you want, statistics don't give you the real truth.

Your generalizations target unfairly the 2993 contributing members of the society that have not violated any laws. At the worst point in 1992 there were 8 criminals / 1000 immigrants. That still leaves 992 perfectly normal members of society per 1000 immigrants.

Sry but WHEN did I generalize 99.8% of the adult immigrants? I said crime rate is higher amongst immigrated youths. Youths. I didn't say that everyone of them are criminals. My mate's parents are Yugoslavian and another one's are from Chile. The one from Chile is blonde and green-eyed, looks Swedish - and has been robbed about 4 times the past year, all times by other immigrants that most likely thought he was a Swede.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]I know I didn't calculate in a way that resulted in a unit but it did result in something that showed that the crime rate was higher...

Remember I meant the youths that may not have been convicted but are criminals or on the very edge to criminals. Say what you want, statistics don't give you the real truth.

 

let's be honest. comparing crime rates among different groups of people is a tough job. While Swedish youths might not appear on records as criminals, the reports only detail those who were caught.

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

The election could be delayed or put off because of this

[theavonlady 2]

The election could be delayed or put off because of this

.......... or even this!

(Good morning, SD. )

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

The election could be delayed or put off because of this

.......... or even this!

(Good morning, SD. )

hehe what an awkward moment this is

[denoir 0]

I know I didn't calculate in a way that resulted in a unit but it did result in something that showed that the crime rate was higher...

Remember I meant the youths that may not have been convicted but are criminals or on the very edge to criminals. Say what you want, statistics don't give you the real truth.

Your generalizations target unfairly the 2993 contributing members of the society that have not violated any laws. At the worst point in 1992 there were 8 criminals / 1000 immigrants. That still leaves 992 perfectly normal members of society per 1000 immigrants.

Sry but WHEN did I generalize 99.8% of the adult immigrants? I said crime rate is higher amongst immigrated youths. Youths. I didn't say that everyone of them are criminals. My mate's parents are Yugoslavian and another one's are from Chile. The one from Chile is blonde and green-eyed, looks Swedish - and has been robbed about 4 times the past year, all times by other immigrants that most likely thought he was a Swede.

LOL. Your logic qualifies you to vote for nationaldemokraterna. So country statistics are not reliable, but your personal experiences are?

So tell me, how many people have your Yugoslav and your Chilean friend robbed?

The crime rates among immigrants are higher but not relative their socio-economic status. Crime rates among poorer people are higher, regardless if they are Swedish or immigrants. And the social and economic status of immigrants is on average worse than the social and economic status of native Swedes. And for that is a bad integration policy to blame.

[Bluesman 0]

This was a thread about EURO not about immigration politics, they arent even related.Never forget that a MAJORITY of those immigrants in fact are Nordic, Baltic. Also make the distinction of immigrant and refugee. They arent the same.

It is also dangerous to make collective statements since it involves far too many. Like saying "non EU". Anyone heard of Chinese or Indian criminals here? They cant be too many.

BM

[GoOB 0]

iNEO, are you takeing the difficult backround most immigrants come from into consideration? Many come here and cant get jobs, heck even doctors become taxi drivers. Not to mention many of these people come from countries wich have been torn by war and organized crime for a long long time.

[Longinius 1]

"Stockholm? Stockholm is much better now than it was several years ago. Rinkeby & other very immigrant dense suburbs have gotten a lot better. Malmö on the other hand has still problems."

Yes, Malmö has indeed got problems. Mostly caused be segregation and poor integration.

Its easy for the government to let immigrants in, place them in a neighborhood with other immigrants and then just forget about them. In reality, this of course causes problems.

Like Denoir said, I dont think immigrants per say are more criminally inclined than Swedes. One must however consider that many are poor, they dont feel accepted and they sometimes have a very traumatic history / background.

It is however a fact that many recent immigrants from eastern countries have come here with the pure intent of comitting crimes. And THAT is scary.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

And as for EU immigrants, Sweden being the second poorest country in the EU, does not have much appeal for immigration for EU citizens.

That is wrong. Even your fellow citizens disagree with you

GDP / capita in the EU:

Swedish site

More info: http://www.scb.se/statistik/ek0105/ek0105dia2eng.asp

----------

As for the appeal of poor countries for EU entry, that is wrong as well. It doesn't matter how rich/poor an EU country is, once you are in and have acquired a permit/asylum/citizenship( ), then you can roam the EU more or less freely, especially between countries that have signed the Schengen (sp?) treaty.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

So surprise surprise it turns out Sweden is as divided and unsure as any other corner of europe about the dream of european unity

I imagine it will make a difference in the UK whether Sweden votes yay or nay even though most people here probably didnt know Sweden was due to be voting on this issue at least until the stabbing of Anna Lindh.

If yes then the UK will look more isolated and there will be increased pressure on Blair from the pro euros to start preparing for a referendum. If no then the euro skeptics will feel encouraged and Gordon Brown will probably breath a sigh of relief. But really a British euro entry looks like a far off prospect at the moment, of course we have the '5 economic tests' which everyone knows is mostly a bullshit stalling tactic whilst waiting for the right time politically.

ill be awaiting the result with interest...

[iNeo 0]

Quote[/b] ]I know I didn't calculate in a way that resulted in a unit but it did result in something that showed that the crime rate was higher...

Remember I meant the youths that may not have been convicted but are criminals or on the very edge to criminals. Say what you want, statistics don't give you the real truth.

 

What I've been saying is based on what I know, not statistics. Denoir brought up statistics and I used them to prove my own point, but I still reckon statistics don't tell you all. It's not like the youths get arrested and end up in statistics like adults.

LOL. Your logic qualifies you to vote for nationaldemokraterna.

There it came. Was waiting for something like that. They are racists and some of them nazists, I'm not. Don't do that shit

So country statistics are not reliable, but your personal experiences are?  

They don't have statistics on the youths, or if they do I don't know about them. And like I said when quoting Ralph, they don't end up in statistics like adults do.

So tell me, how many people have your Yugoslav and your Chilean friend robbed?

None. That was my point - that not all are like that, that I'm not generalizing. Why do you think they are my friends.

Crime rates among poorer people are higher, regardless if they are Swedish or immigrants. And the social and economic status of immigrants is on average worse than the social and economic status of native Swedes. And for that is a bad integration policy to blame.

I'm not blaming the immigrants, I told you I reckoned the social democrates have a F'ed up immigration policy and you agreed with me. But it shouldn't affect us. If we can't handle them we shouldn't let them in.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]I know I didn't calculate in a way that resulted in a unit but it did result in something that showed that the crime rate was higher...

Remember I meant the youths that may not have been convicted but are criminals or on the very edge to criminals. Say what you want, statistics don't give you the real truth.

 

What I've been saying is based on what I know, not statistics. Denoir brought up statistics and I used them to prove my own point, but I still reckon statistics don't tell you all. It's not like the youths get arrested and end up in statistics like adults.

but in the end, you claimed that denoir's statistic proves denoir's argument to be false, but how can something be used to prove another thing when the data itself is false?

[Bluesman 0]

I thinks this immigration debate illustrates the tone in the EURO debate here. Both sides bring in totally irrelevant debates into what should be a simple question. Should we or should'nt we change the Crown to Euro.

The EURO campaign has been among the worst election campaigns i've seen. And I've seen quite a few.

BM

[iNeo 0]

Quote[/b] ]I know I didn't calculate in a way that resulted in a unit but it did result in something that showed that the crime rate was higher...

Remember I meant the youths that may not have been convicted but are criminals or on the very edge to criminals. Say what you want, statistics don't give you the real truth.

 

What I've been saying is based on what I know, not statistics. Denoir brought up statistics and I used them to prove my own point, but I still reckon statistics don't tell you all. It's not like the youths get arrested and end up in statistics like adults.

but in the end, you claimed that denoir's statistic proves denoir's argument to be false, but how can something be used to prove another thing when the data itself is false?

If you only read. I didn't say they were false, I said they don't give you the whole truth as they only show the statistics of convicted adults, and I was talking about youths (convicted or not). Then I used his statistics to prove that even amongst adults my statement was correct.

[ralphwiggum 6]

If you only read. I didn't say they were false, I said they don't give you the whole truth as they only show the statistics of convicted adults, and I was talking about youths (convicted or not). Then I used his statistics to prove that even amongst adults my statement was correct.

and there is the problem. you are trying to infer something from a data that is not directly related.

A record pertaining to that of adults is not same as those of youths.

furthermore, your statistical inference from adult population did not go through statistical examinations to prove its validity.

[iNeo 0]

and there is the problem. you are trying to infer something from a data that is not directly related.

A record pertaining to that of adults is not same as those of youths.

Did you read our posts? I was talking about youths, denoir showed statistics of adult convicts, and I used them to prove that even amongst adults I was correct (not much of a margin but nontheless I was right). I didn't say those statistics applied for the youths.

furthermore, your statistical inference from adult population did not go through statistical examinations to prove its validity.

Read the posts. Denoir provided the statistics, not me. I don't remember where he got them from but they were to prove his point but I showed they didn't.

[denoir 0]

furthermore, your statistical inference from adult population did not go through statistical examinations to prove its validity.

Read the posts. Denoir provided the statistics, not me. I don't remember where he got them from but they were to prove his point but I showed they didn't.

What are you talking about?. The statistics did prove my point. This was my post before I presented the statistics:

And the "immigrants and crime" issue is a very exaggerated issue. In a previous discussion about this in this forum, I dug up some statistics for Sweden from Brottsförebyggande R?det. Statistically there's only a very small difference in crimes comitted by immigrants compared to crimes comitted by Swedes.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Did you read our posts? I was talking about youths, denoir showed statistics of adult convicts, and I used them to prove that even amongst adults I was correct (not much of a margin but nontheless I was right). I didn't say those statistics applied for the youths.

1. was rigorous statistical inference used? no. thus we cannot conclude that there is difference between crime rate of immigrants and non-immigrants.

Quote[/b] ]

furthermore, your statistical inference from adult population did not go through statistical examinations to prove its validity.

Read the posts. Denoir provided the statistics, not me. I don't remember where he got them from but they were to prove his point but I showed they didn't.

as denoir said above, it did prove his point. the difference was not statistically significant, thus denoir's point is correct.

[iNeo 0]

So no one of us were wrong about that thing then.

But I wasn't talking about the adults and you know that so drop it.

1. was rigorous statistical inference used? no. thus we cannot conclude that there is difference between crime rate of immigrants and non-immigrants.

It was still denoir that brought the statistics so get off my face about that..

[denoir 0]

So no one of us were wrong about that thing then.

But I wasn't talking about the adults and you know that so drop it.

1. was rigorous statistical inference used? no. thus we cannot conclude that there is difference between crime rate of immigrants and non-immigrants.

It was still denoir that brought the statistics so get off my face about that..

I really don't want to debate this anymore but:

[*] You first calculated something based on the statistics that I presented and claimed that it proved your point. Then a couple of words later you said that statistics doesn't prove anything.

This is a contradiction and that was what Ralph pointed out.

[*] The statistics are per crime, not per criminal. So it is the whole population, kids as well as adults.

[*] (Also pointed out by Ralph) The difference is so small that it lacks statistical significance because the error margin is larger than the actual difference.

[iNeo 0]

I really don't want to debate this anymore but:

[*] You first calculated something based on the statistics that I presented and claimed that it proved your point. Then a couple of words later you said that statistics doesn't prove anything.

This is a contradiction and that was what Ralph pointed out.

What the hell. I've already explained that, I still reckon they don't tell you the whole truth but I used your statistics to show that your point was false or misguiding, cause you said that immigrants stand for 14% of the crimes in Sweden - but there aren't as many immigrants as Swedes in Sweden, so I converted to a weird unit (if that's what enhet is called in mathematic English) which showed that crime rate was (marginally) higher amongst immigrants.

[*] The statistics are per crime, not per criminal. So it is the whole population, kids as well as adults.

How many of the criminal, or on the edge to criminal, kids are convicted? Not many.

[*] (Also pointed out by Ralph) The difference is so small that it lacks statistical significance because the error margin is larger than the actual difference.

sigh. Read above... and all my other posts.

[denoir 0]

I really don't want to debate this anymore but:

[*] You first calculated something based on the statistics that I presented and claimed that it proved your point. Then a couple of words later you said that statistics doesn't prove anything.

This is a contradiction and that was what Ralph pointed out.

What the hell. I've already explained that, I still reckon they don't tell you the whole truth but I used your statistics to show that your point was false or misguiding, cause you said that immigrants stand for 14% of the crimes in Sweden - but there aren't as many immigrants as Swedes in Sweden, so I converted to a weird unit (if that's what enhet is called in mathematic English) which showed that crime rate was (marginally) higher amongst immigrants.

You're still not getting it. You cant say:

A is true because of B. and then say

B is false.

Quote[/b] ]

[*] The statistics are per crime, not per criminal. So it is the whole population, kids as well as adults.

How many of the criminal, or on the edge to criminal, kids are convicted? Not many.

Read and weep

Crime statistics in sweden are done per reported crime, not per conviction. So everybody who has ever been charged with a crime is included in the statistics, regardless of what happens to them or if they are convicted or freed.

[denoir 0]

Ok, back on topic, Euro.

There's something I really want to complain about: opinion polls. They've gone insane - they're polling several times a day. IMO this should not be allowed because it:

1) Influences the decision of people

2) Isn't reliable

[iNeo 0]

You're still not getting it. You cant say:

A is true because of B. and then say

B is false.

You're still not getting it.

I'm saying:

You're claiming A is true because B is true. [b being stats.]

I'm saying if B is true, C is true.

But B isn't true [because it's not relevant when we're talking youths].

Therefore none of A and C is true.

Read and weep

Crime statistics in sweden are done per reported crime, not per conviction. So everybody who has ever been charged with a crime is included in the statistics, regardless of what happens to them or if they are convicted or freed.

That has got nothing to do with criminal youths.