Us orchestrated 9/11?

[denoir 0]

Denoir

Quote[/b] ]On a straight line to Bush's bedroom which it would reach in 10 minutes. And the pilots had been given orders to shoot down hostile commercial airliners.

So it doesn't add up.

They were also going towards a lot of international airports.  I'm sure if they had violated the restricted area around the white house they would of been shot down.  But there's also the possibility that they were trying to land at an airport.

Yes, they probably could of found them, and yes they probably did have a decent shot at the airliner.  But they, probably, didn't shoot it because they wanted to give it a chance to get to an airport.  They didn't know what they were trying to do and they hadn't shown any agression yet.

Not shown any agression? It was hijacked! It turned from its designated path and went straight for the heart of Washington DC. The same place where minutes ago another aircraft smashed into the Pentagon.

When did you expect they would shoot it down? When it was landing on the White House lawn? Or when it was above some nice densly-populated area where the debris could kill some more innocent civilians.

That plane went down (one way or another) not a minute too late. It was 10 minutes from the Whitehouse.

[FSPilot 0]

denoir

Quote[/b] ]Not shown any agression? It was hijacked! It turned from its designated path and went straight for the heart of Washington DC. The same place where minutes ago another aircraft smashed into the Pentagon.

What if the passengers had taken the plane back over?  It's what they were trying to do, after all.

Quote[/b] ]When did you expect they would shoot it down? When it was landing on the White House lawn? Or when it was above some nice densly-populated area where the debris could kill some more innocent civilians.

When they were sure that it was headed for the white house and not for an airport.

IIRC, they didn't even intercept the plane, just got in missile range of it.  Standard interception protocol involves making visual contact with the pilot and having them get on a certain frequency (121.5).  I doubt they would of shot the plane down before they made contact with it.  Unless, of course, it was clear that it was going to go after the white house.

The white house may be in a city, but there are mountains and forests you have to go over to get there (from the west anyway).  The plane was not 10 minutes away from the white house when it crashed.  Shanksville is approx. 150 miles away from DC, given a speed of 300 mph, which is just a rough estimate, it would of taken 30 minutes to get there, give or take.

[denoir 0]

They tried to shoot down Flight 175 (second tower) and Flight 77 (pentagon) but didn't get there in time. And you are claiming that for Flight 93 that followed exactly the same pattern as the three other flights and when assets were in place that they had a sudden change of heart. That they said "Screw the order from Bush we ain't shooting down no hijacked plane".

[FSPilot 0]

Did they try to shoot them down or to intercept them and just not get there in time?

I don't know all of the facts involved here, nobody does (at least nobody on this forum ). I'm just speculating on what I do know.

Frankly this whole conversation is starting to depress me.

[Pukko 0]

I clearly remember CNN and others reporting flight 93 as shot down too. denoir wrote that they stopped talking about it 1 or 2 hours later, but as I remeber it it was still discussed until about 6 hours later. I think it was at about that time I saw an interview on CNN with some 'official' who suddenly denied that it was shot down, but that it indeed could have been - as in that was approved.

It surely is nothing more than that some 'officials' quite quickly came to the conclusion that it would be bad to admit that it was shot down. It doesnt really matters that much I recon, since thats quite much a irrelevant detail in the grand scale of 9/11. Its quite a big step between lying about that and the idea that all of 9/11 would be a conspiracy.

In my wildest conspiracy fantasies about it I would recon that TBA indeed would'nt mind something to happen that they could blame on Usama, since it could play them right in their hands. They might even have 'failed to notice on purpose', but in that case also severely miscalculated the size of the whole thing. If 9/11 was something 100 times less, like a single quite harmless bomb blowing up somewhere, I could think that TBA would'nt mind it happening - giving them reasons to do what they want. But as big as it turned out, I would really be surprised - if not chocked - if it turns out that TBA really wanted that to happen. Honestly on the borders of 'impossible' IMO.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I always wondered about that part. If the passengers on 93 were so successful in wresting control from the hijackers, then why, of all the decisions they could have made, they chose to lawndart?

[FSPilot 0]

It's possible that, when the attempted to take the plane back, the terrorists dove for the ground. Better to kill everyone on board and be a martyr than nobody at all.

[theavonlady 2]

I still ask: what difference does it make if it was shot down and why bother hiding the fact?

[Pukko 0]

I still ask: what difference does it make if it was shot down and why bother hiding the fact?

Well, do you really think that all decicions was easy to make the right way for the ones taking them on 9/11?

Some things are best kept secret, and shooting down flight 93 might have been considered a dangerous thing to admit for them at the chaotic moment. But once they had lied about it, they probably also recognized that it would be 10 times as bad if they on, lets say, 9/13 (when understanding that it was a bad decision) changed their mind again, and admitted that they had lied. So a coverup story was developed..

An unlikely cenario?

[theavonlady 2]

I still ask: what difference does it make if it was shot down and why bother hiding the fact?

Well, do you really think that all decicions was easy to make the right way for the ones taking them on 9/11?

Some things are best kept secret, and shooting down flight 93 might have been considered a dangerous thing to admit for them at the chaotic moment. But once they had lied about it, they probably also recognized that it would be 10 times as bad if they on, lets say, 9/13 (when understanding that it was a bad decision) changed their mind again, and admitted that they had lied. So a coverup story was developed..

An unlikely cenario?

Just another conspiracy theory. They knew that the plane was a 4th hijacked one. In fact, it would have sounded pretty good to know that US defenses did something right on that day.

I bet had the Pentagon claimed to have successfully shot it down, we'd all be theorizing that they missed and only the bravery of the passengers saved Washington DC from another crash.

This is a bit silly.

[Pukko 0]

I would call it a bit silly to think of what I wrote above about a bad dicision taken at a caotic moment as a conspiracy. You are a little paranoid aye? Thinking everyone is conspiring (sp?) to get a connspracy..

lol - I'm off to bed

[The Frenchman 0]

This is a bit silly.

Yes it is.

[denoir 0]

Saying it was shot down means that they had to kill innocent civilians to prevent it from reaching its target = bad for the government who really needed all the support it could get then. Bad for the families.

Saying that the passengers overpowered the terrorists = good for the families that get a comfort in believing that their loved ones last act was an unselfish sacrifice.

Nobody wins on admitting that the US Air Force had to kill Americans. Especially not on that day.

While I'm fairly convinced that it got shot down, I don't blame them for covering it up. As I said, nobody had anything to win on it.

[The Frenchman 0]

Thinking everyone is conspiring (sp?) to get a connspracy..

Yep

[The Frenchman 0]

While I'm fairly convinced that it got shot down, I don't blame them for covering it up.

Neither do I but you cant help the fact that the families of the passengers will be parinoid of the goverment and become anarcists(sp).

[FSPilot 0]

Well, I know I wouldn't want to be the pilot that has to deal with it.

[theavonlady 2]

Saying it was shot down means that they had to kill innocent civilians to prevent it from reaching its target = bad for the government who really needed all the support it could get then. Bad for the families.

Bad for the government, who failed 100% that day.

Quote[/b] ]Saying that the passengers overpowered the terrorists = good for the families that get a comfort in believing that their loved ones last act was an unselfish sacrifice.

The planes voice recorder establishes this. No need to make it up.

Quote[/b] ]Nobody wins on admitting that the US Air Force had to kill Americans. Especially not on that day.

Wins? No. Loses? Again, the defense system appears defenseless. Furthermore, they already said then and we all know that had the fighters in the NE scrambled just a drop earlier, they would most likely have knocked out the 2nd WTC plane.

[DarkLight 0]

Um... I find it hard to believe that you guys are surprised about this...

Sure, the attacks were horrible, we all know that, no discussion needed about that.

But what has the US done after it? They have arrested ppl who might be innocent... Without a trial...

They have started their "war on terror" thing, a war that is total bullshit. The US only fights countries that have something good for them. War on terror my ass, the US and europe support enough countries that could be labeled as terrorists. Now that's yet another problem, terrorist is THE most pathetic word that exists. If my neighbour beats his wife daily and nobody gives a fuck, he's not a terrorist. But if some Arabian kid steals something in a shop he'll probable get labeled as some terrorist scum.

The reasons why a lot of people think it COULD BE (not the same as "it's absolutely true") possible that america orchestrated 9/11 are pretty simple. In the end, all the US has done are stuff they've always wanted to do, but they never had an excuse to start it because it wasn't very smart.

Now they got kicked in the balls first and they believe it is justified to go kick the rest of the world in the balls for that.

The attacks on the WTC towers were horrible, but even worse was that it gave the US a great excuse to start doing silly stuff again....

[Akira 0]

Bad for the government, who failed 100% that day.

Quote[/b] ]Saying that the passengers overpowered the terrorists = good for the families that get a comfort in believing that their loved ones last act was an unselfish sacrifice.

The planes voice recorder establishes this. No need to make it up.

CVR as well as FDR can be faked. There is even speculation that the CVR and FDR in the A320 crash in France were faked and switched, since the boxes seen being pulled out of the wreckage were NOT the ones shown to the media and the court.

And how many of us really saw the CVR or FDR of UAL93? Remember when they were first pulled out and taken to the labs. The originally refused to give any information as to what were on the tapes. Couple weeks pass and they release what they say are the last few minutes showing a struggle in the cockpit.

The fact that UAL93 was deemed hostile is not in dispute. It made a major deviation from its filed flight plan. All communication was lost with the plane. The transponder was deliberately switched to off. It was heading right for Washington D.C. If a landing was needed to get out of the air Cleveland or Pittsburgh would have been quicker and closer.

[denoir 0]

Here's something for the conspiracty theorist. For the rest of us it's also interesting because Bush is caught in a lie.

Quote[/b] ]Q One thing, Mr. President, is that you have no idea how much you've done for this country. And another thing is that, how did you feel when you heard about the terrorist attack? (Applause.)

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Jordan. Well, Jordan, you're not going to believe what state I was in when I heard about the terrorist attack. I was in Florida. And my Chief of Staff, Andy Card -- actually, I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on. And I used to fly, myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident.

But I was whisked off there, I didn't have much time to think about it. And I was sitting in the classroom, and Andy Card, my Chief of Staff, who is sitting over here, walked in and said, "A second plane has hit the tower, America is under attack."

Source:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011204-17.html

You see, there was no live coverage of the first plane. The first footage emerged first 12/9. Second, Bush was reading about Fluffy the Bunny to a class of children when the first plane impacted. He was interrupted some ten minutes later by someone from his staff but continued reading to the children. First about 10 minutes after the second plane impacted he left the school. It's all on tape as his visit was filmed by a local TV station.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Less of a lie, and more an indication of how much of a flake Dubya is. Although it is somewhat disturbing to me that he can't friggin' remember where he was or what he was doing- I know I remember where I was when I heard about it.

[Major Fubar 0]

Quote[/b] ]THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Jordan. Well, Jordan, you're not going to believe what state I was in when I heard about the terrorist attack. I was in Florida. And my Chief of Staff, Andy Card -- actually, I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on. And I used to fly, myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident.

But I was whisked off there, I didn't have much time to think about it. And I was sitting in the classroom, and Andy Card, my Chief of Staff, who is sitting over here, walked in and said, "A second plane has hit the tower, America is under attack."

How many times did GW go in and out of that classroom? Another example of his sterling oratory skills.

But seriously, it's doesn't sound too good if the president can be caught out in such an obvious falsehood. True, there probably wasn't a sinister motive behind it, but it still looks bad...

[Tovarish 0]

@ July 30 2003,00:50)]Less of a lie, and more an indication of how much of a flake Dubya is. Although it is somewhat disturbing to me that he can't friggin' remember where he was or what he was doing- I know I remember where I was when I heard about it.

You know what's funny? A year or so before it happened, a teacher of mine mentioned how everyone in his generation could remember the exact moment they heard JFK had been shot, and how our generation didn't have such a strong event that was forever engraved in our memories. Heh.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

And I thought Carl Rove was Bush's Chief of Staff?

[FSPilot 0]

He's either lying or he's confused. It's possible he saw the second plane hit the tower and thought it was the first plane.