The Iraq Thread 2

[ralphwiggum 6]

This is inaccurate. There's lots of room between "doesn't cost you anything" and $87 billion where the general concensus still would have said "yes".

No one ever said this is a zero cost operation.

Here, too, it's the administration's fumbling or fudging of original calculations that has caused the change of opinion.

according to hawks who gave plans to this war, this would only cost the money we need to sustain war, and Iraq can get back on its feet by selling the oil again. but war is not over, and is costing 40billion more. and getting the Iraq oil line up to its capacity is still in clouds.

Bush talks at UN

Quote[/b] ]President Bush told members of the United Nations General Assembly today that there is "no neutral ground" in the war on terror. "All governments that support terror are complicit in a war against civilization," Bush said. He also said the United States was seeking a new Security Council resolution that would expand the U.N. role in Iraq.

good point. "you are either with us or not." that worked with 9-11 due to sympathy, but such attitude can only be reflected as arrogance in this situation.

Quote[/b] ]Bush defended the invasion of Iraq, saying the United States and its allies "acted to defend the peace and the credibility of the United Nations."

"The regime of Saddam Hussein cultivated ties to terror while it built weapons of mass destruction. It used those weapons in acts of mass murder, and refused to account for them when confronted by the world," Bush said.

[Crazysheep 1]

"The regime of Saddam Hussein cultivated ties to terror while it built weapons of mass destruction. It used those weapons in acts of mass murder, and refused to account for them when confronted by the world," Bush said.

Does anyone else want to shout at this jerk so damn much!!!!

[theavonlady 2]

"The regime of Saddam Hussein cultivated ties to terror while it built weapons of mass destruction. It used those weapons in acts of mass murder, and refused to account for them when confronted by the world," Bush said.

Does anyone else want to shout at this jerk so damn much!!!!

The first 2 points are true regarding the past. The last point is still true.

So you might want to shout at the jerk but I think you're shouting about the wrong quotation.

[Crazysheep 1]

Oops......I was actually trying to respond mainly to this bit;

Quote[/b] ]Bush defended the invasion of Iraq, saying the United States and its allies "acted to defend the peace and the credibility of the United Nations."

But I deleted the wrong parts of Ralphs post in the quote box thing.

[denoir 0]

Hehe. Nice speech by Kofi. He is my new personal hero as he stopped nothing short of telling Bush that he's a threat to world peace and security.   This is the third time in the UN history that a speaker was given a general applause. The first time was when  Adlai Stevenson confronted the Soviets over the missiles in Cuba. The second time was Dominique de Villepin's speech in February (excellent speech indeed) and now Kofi Annan's speech.

[Tamme 0]

Hehe. Nice speech by Kofi. He is my new personal hero as he stopped nothing short of telling Bush that he's a threat to world peace and security.   This is the third time in the UN history that a speaker was given a general applause. The first time was when  Adlai Stevenson confronted the Soviets over the missiles in Cuba. The second time was Dominique de Villepin's speech in February (excellent speech indeed) and now Kofi Annan's speech.

Kofi has always been my personal hero. They mensioned his speech in the news half an hour ago. I knew Kofi would have the balls to stand up against Bush, but this speech was even better than I could've expected.  The most funny thing was that Kofi had his speech first, and after him was Bush's turn. So Bush must've sounded reeaaally ridicilous.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Huh. From watching the 'news', I had no idea that Kofi Annan was even speaking today. Go figure.

[hellfish6 7]

I was very impressed by Kofi's speech, and utterly disgusted by Bush's. Defending the "credibility of the UN?" How in the whole wide world could he say that with a straight face?

If anybody gets a chance, pick up a copy of "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right" by Al Franken. He's an American comedian/political pundit, so I don't know how likely it is that he will be translated into other languages, but I'm reading the book now and he is able to say a lot of things I wanted to say myself. He shines a big light on the American Right Wing, especially Bush and his administration.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]The culture of confrontation must give way to a culture of action aimed at achieving our goals.

-- Jacques Chirac

how about that. Chirac thinks he can put himself on higher grounds. wasn't he the one that over reacted to gain popularity before the war?

"It is not enough to denounce unilateralism, unless we also face up squarely to the concerns that make some states feel uniquely vulnerable, and thus drive them to take unilateral action.

Quote[/b] ]Council members may need to start discussing the terms under which collective action through a Council resolution might authorise a pre-emptive strike against a threat such as that posed by terrorist groups armed with weapons of mass destruction, Mr Annan said.

Mr Annan said the new panel, which will report back before the next General Assembly session, would be set four tasks:

[*]To examine current challenge to peace and security

[*]to consider the contribution which collective action can make in addressing these challenges

[*]to review the functioning of major organs of UN and the relationship between them

[*]recommend ways of strengthening the UN and reform of its institutions and processes.

i support this action.

[*]recommend ways of strengthening the UN and reform of its institutions and processes.

move from New York. That way, those isiots who want UN to move out from NY can have there wish fulfilled, and UN no longer needs to be dragged by some dumb US administration.

[denoir 0]

I thought that this added a nice touch to the speech:

Quote[/b] ]Les douze derniers mois ont été tres pénibles pour ceux d'entre nous qui croient que les problemes et défis communs des réponses collectives.

Especially that it was in French

(It basically says that the last twelve months were very painful for those who believe that we should solve our common problems together).

Edit: Damn ikonboard can't handle accented french vowels

[denoir 0]

move from New York. That way, those isiots who want UN to move out from NY can have there wish fulfilled, and UN no longer needs to be dragged by some dumb US administration.

I agree. Move it to Switzerland. The Swiss would like it and it's probably acceptable to most nations.

[Tamme 0]

move from New York. That way, those isiots who want UN to move out from NY can have there wish fulfilled, and UN no longer needs to be dragged by some dumb US administration.

I agree. Move it to Switzerland. The Swiss would like it and it's probably acceptable to most nations.

Switzerland sounds good. It would be neutral enough. The UN building is so good looking that it would be a shame to lose it though.

[ralphwiggum 6]

that good looking building is now in need of renovation. asbestos, outdated plumbing and air conditioning to name a few.

time to get a new building.

[Tamme 0]

You just ruined the perfect picture I had of the building.

[Bernadotte 0]

"If we lock everybody up, then there won't be any criminals on the street." -Optimal police solution

"If we PR everybody, then there won't be any disruption in the forum." -Optimal moderator solution  

(edit:  post number 1000 and it's not even in the ME thread )

[Mr. Snrub 0]

Hehe. Nice speech by Kofi. He is my new personal hero as he stopped nothing short of telling Bush that he's a threat to world peace and security.

My thoughts exactly - Kofi Annan and George W. Bush are complete opposites and, as such, have achieved completely different levels of respect.

Bush's speech was nothing more than a reiteration of the tired old rhetoric that has been remorselessly pumped out of the White House for the last few months - nothing new, nothing even remotely convincing and most importantly, nothing resembling an appreciation of reality.

When you have an administration of such colossal ignorance & aggressiveness, you can truly appreciate the perceptiveness, intelligence and compassion of a person like Kofi.

[denoir 0]

It's all in the eye of the beholder. This is how Rush Limbaugh described it:

Quote[/b] ]You Can't Take U.N. Terrorists Seriously

September 23, 2003

President Bush addressed the United Nations on Tuesday after Secretary-General Kofi Annan. Annan basically said that the future of the United Nations is at the fork in the road. (I was hoping to hear him say, "and we're going to take it.") It would be the best thing that could happen if they would take the fork in the road and split up.  

He's very much concerned that they face a crisis much like they faced in 1945, and he went on and on and on about how member states who take unilateral action threaten the survivability of the whole body. Well, let me translate this for you. Member states that take unilateral action equals us, the United States. We're the ones that pay all the bills; we're the ones that founded this place, and we're the ones that give them any credibility at all. When Kofi Annan was up there speaking, I was thinking that I couldn't take this organization seriously. Over half the membership are thugs. They are terrorists and tinhorn dictators themselves. The idea that you have to go up there and show respect to this mob, this Star Wars bar scene, is absurd. Madeleine Albright is out there saying, "We must be conciliatory; we must even be apologetic. We must go in there and show that we don't intend to rule the world." I just want to throw up when I hear this. Madam Albright and the Clinton crowd actually regret that we are a superpower.

When he made his speech today, the first thing Bush started with was 911. He had to remind everybody it happened, because everybody in that hall, everybody in that body, and half the people of this country have conveniently forgotten it. Not only did he mention 9/11, but his focus was terrorism and he didn't budge an inch over weapons of mass destruction! Why, you would have thought that Saddam Hussein was stopped in the nick of time. There was no reference to the fact that we haven't reported finding any. He said, "Terrorists deserve no friends in this chamber," and I said, "Well, that's good, because half that chamber is in bed with terrorists!" There was total dead silence through a lot of the speech.

There were some applause lines, but make no mistake about it: that collection of misfits resents us, and resents the president. Chirac followed Bush, but Bush left before the Frenchman started speaking. The minute finished speaking he got on that escalator with his entourage, went down to his waiting limo, and disappeared into the rainy mists of Manhattan. Powell and Condoleezza Rice left as well. They weren't even there to hear what Chirac had to say. Meanwhile, Jacques Chirac stumbled his way to the podium. I listened to a little bit of Chirac's speech and they didn't miss anything. It was absolute pabulum.

Again: the president didn't budge an inch. He didn't offer the Germans or the French anything and he didn't offer details, which upset CNN and MSNBC. Another good line from the president: "Saddam's monuments are gone - not just the statues, but the rape rooms, the torture chambers, the mass graves. The monuments to Saddam Hussein are gone." He then said that we were right to do what we did, and it's up to you klutzes in the UN to make sure that the course we're on is a course everybody stays on - and once again, it's up to you member states to preserve the dignity of this body, if that's possible.

Note: Rush Limbaugh is very popular right-wing radio host. FSPilot listens to his show. (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/)

[NurEinMensch 0]

I wish I could view politics as simplistic as this man does. Would really help a lot, eh.  

edit: well my spelling is on one level with that mindset

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

And in december this person invites his wife to Paris for a romantic holiday.

"half of those countries are in bed with terorists"

I must say that propaganda has improved and diversified quite a lot since "Mein Kampf". Maybe it is time I read some american books in order to study the evolution of propaganda since 1945. Oh and of course listen to radio messages!

[EiZei 0]

Funny that he still mentions the Iraq war and terrorists/911 in the same paragraph.

[Longinius 1]

Helps to keep the myth alive I guess.

[Tamme 0]

Think of the people whose world views and opinions are based on Rush Limbaugh's speeches.

[denoir 0]

Rush is my little favourite since he is totally out of touch with reality while it doesn't seem to hinder his narcissistic ego trips.

I remember about the time when the war ended, he had a list with the title "I told you so". And the list was:

1) WMDs have been found.

2) Saddam is dead.

3) AQ training camps have been found in Baghdad.

The next day, the "Saddam is dead" was removed, then the WMD one and finally after three days the whole list was removed

[Wyerd 0]

First the US runs over the UN and goes to war on their own, and now, when the situation is deteriorating, they come begging for economical aid, but refuse to give up any political power. Yeah right! I say: if you want the world to help, hand over the politic power to the Iraqi ppl and the UN.

[denoir 0]

Unfortunately it looks like Bush is going to get his wish through. Schröder has said that it's very likely that they'll find an agreement. And Germany is not politically strong enough to issue such statements by itself, which means that Chirac is in agreement too. And without France, I doubt that Russia will veto.