The Iraq Thread 2

[Tovarish 0]

Criticising is good, yes.  Criticising to the point where you have to take a walk to the moon to see where they're coming from is not.

.... ....nevermind....

[Guest ####]

I h8 Swedes because of Ikea furniture.

[FSPilot 0]

The forces are not being criticised, their orders are.

Where do the orders come from?

I'm sure the order to get reinforcements went straight to the white house and got a signed order from Bush himself.

But when we look at reality I'd bet the order to get reinforcement came maybe from one of the guys on the ground.

[bn880 5]

This is really absurd now, no one would be saying things like this if TBA wasn't doing what it's doing. I do critisize many Americans for not having the will to stand up to TBA. Get a grip. One of my American friends that passed away last year had a very lively past of speaking out about his government which has been lying to it's public for decades, and how can I be anti-American if I still have American friends, who can agree with me?

[turms 0]

what I have in my mind about the phrase "returning fire" is that one would shoot back when getting shot at.Now if the US forces pulled back and then attacked again,I would call it pulling back and then attacking.

[FallenPaladin 0]

I know you guys are anti-American and all, but this is just stupid.  

All wrong. We are anti-TBA which makes us totally pro-American!

[Blaegis 0]

Blaegis

Quote[/b] ]You are wrong. According to LtGen Sanchez' briefing, the tip-off on the possible location of Uday and Qusay (sp?) came in the evening the day before yesterday, the following night was spent on operation planning, and when the op actually commenced at 1000 hours yesterday, a full company of 101st was deployed for assault, with additional cordoning units plus on-call CAS including OH-58s, AH-64s and A-10s. So I stand by my earlier post (i.e. the aim of the operation was definitely to kill the occupants of that house).

Whether the operation was big or not doesn't make any difference.  You can't prove to me that they wanted to kill those people.

Well, OK, since you apparently haven't the foggiest idea of CQB tactics and/or are unwilling to use your brain I'll have to explain it slowly and in simple terms:

1) The American forces were tipped off regarding the location of Hussein's sons at least 12 hours before the beginning of the operation. Therefore, they had ample time to plan it and bring in specialized units if the goal of the op were to capture Uday and Qusay. Instead the result of the planning was the deployment of an infantry company and multiple support units. Already this should give you an inkling of what the expected result of the op was (infantry will kill quickly and efficiently but don't expect them to capture anybody).

2) After demanding surrender over the bullhorn, the Americans receive small-arms fire from the house (big surprise there) and storm the building. They rapidly secure the first floor, losing 3 men wounded in the courtyard and 1 on the stairwell inside the house. The occupants retreat to the second floor. Well, then, now as the assaulting side you have a number of non-lethal options for subduing your opponents, such as CS/irritant agents, flashbangs and breaching charges. Failing that, you just can sit them out on the first floor - they have nowhere to go. What do the Americans do? They fall back from the house and pound it with FFARs and TOWs instead. Once again, it sure looks like the desired outcome of the op would be the deaths of everybody in the house...

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

The forces are not being criticised, their orders are.

Where do the orders come from?

I'm sure the order to get reinforcements went straight to the white house and got a signed order from Bush himself.

But when we look at reality I'd bet the order to get reinforcement came maybe from one of the guys on the ground.

You know what, I won't bother anymore, I'll just sit here and laugh at the fact that we had this discussion on page 69 of this thread

[Guest ####]

Saab cars are also annoying, why put the ignition on the transmission? Norway and Finland should invade Sweden then split it in half.

[FSPilot 0]

Bn880

Quote[/b] ]This is really absurd now, no one would be saying things like this if TBA wasn't doing what it's doing. I do critisize many Americans for not having the will to stand up to TBA. Get a grip. One of my American friends that passed away last year had a very lively past of speaking out about his government which has been lying to it's public for decades, and how can I be anti-American if I still have American friends, who can agree with me?

I'm calling you anti-American because you constantly criticise US troops for doing anything. Not because you criticise TBA. I even do that.

Blaegis

Quote[/b] ]Well, OK, since you apparently haven't the foggiest idea of CQB tactics and/or are unwilling to use your brain I'll have to explain it slowly and in simple terms:

1) The American forces were tipped off regarding the location of Hussein's sons at least 12 hours before the beginning of the operation. Therefore, they had ample time to plan it and bring in specialized units if the goal of the op were to capture Uday and Qusay. Instead the result of the planning was the deployment of an infantry company and multiple support units. Already this should give you an inkling of what the expected result of the op was (infantry will kill quickly and efficiently but don't expect them to capture anybody).

2) After demanding surrender over the bullhorn, the Americans receive small-arms fire from the house (big surprise there) and storm the building. They rapidly secure the first floor, losing 3 men wounded in the courtyard and 1 on the stairwell inside the house. The occupants retreat to the second floor. Well, then, now as the assaulting side you have a number of non-lethal options for subduing your opponents, such as CS/irritant agents, flashbangs and breaching charges. Failing that, you just can sit them out on the first floor - they have nowhere to go. What do the Americans do? They fall back from the house and pound it with FFARs and TOWs instead. Once again, it sure looks like the desired outcome of the op would be the deaths of everybody in the house...

I see what you're getting at, and I still disagree. The US wanted these people alive. If they didn't they would of just LGB'ed the house.

[theavonlady 2]

(infantry will kill quickly and efficiently but don't expect them to capture anybody).

Like this?

Quote[/b] ]2) After demanding surrender over the bullhorn, the Americans receive small-arms fire from the house (big surprise there) and storm the building. They rapidly secure the first floor, losing 3 men wounded in the courtyard and 1 on the stairwell inside the house. The occupants retreat to the second floor. Well, then, now as the assaulting side you have a number of non-lethal options for subduing your opponents, such as CS/irritant agents, flashbangs and breaching charges. Failing that, you just can sit them out on the first floor - they have nowhere to go. What do the Americans do? They fall back from the house and pound it with FFARs and TOWs instead. Once again, it sure looks like the desired outcome of the op would be the deaths of everybody in the house...

Reports were that the battle took several hours? With all the firepower reportedly used, why did it take so long?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]There's a difference between being critical, and criticising everything the American forces do.

Tex even criticised the US for not voting on removing Saddam's holidays!  

You're fuckin' kidding. You know what a joke is, right? Sarcasm, irony, any of these things ring a bell? For fuck's sake, I didn't spend most of the old Iraq Thread trying to salvage the reputation of my country from the likes of you to have to put up with this nitpicky bullshit. So what is it? Am I anti-American now? Hmm?

[FSPilot 0]

@ July 23 2003,23:34)]You're fuckin' kidding. You know what a joke is, right? Sarcasm, irony, any of these things ring a bell? For fuck's sake, I didn't spend most of the old Iraq Thread trying to salvage the reputation of my country from the likes of you to have to put up with this nitpicky bullshit. So what is it? Am I anti-American now? Hmm?

You're saying it's a joke now? Trying to salvage another reputation?

Let's look at this logically now

If I said "I hate germans" on the internet, am I joking or not?

Can't really tell can you?

[Blaegis 0]

I see what you're getting at, and I still disagree.  The US wanted these people alive.  If they didn't they would of just LGB'ed the house.

According to Sanchez, they didn't LGB the house, because they didn't want collateral damage (He actually said specifically that was they reason why they didn't use A-10s and AH-64s. They obviously wanted to.). So no dice there, FS.

Avon: where in your article does it say that it was regular infantry that captured al-Tikriti?

[denoir 0]

LOL LOL. I have to save these couple of pages as a memento. This is soooooo FSPilot.

[Akira 0]

Akira's Consistency In Anti-## Remarks Project

Let us clearify our "anti-s":

Anti-BAFP: Perhaps you like TBA, yet wish we weren't in Iraq, or constantly screwing foreign relations? Well this one is for you, the "anti-Bush Administration Foreign Policy." Proper usage:

"Geez. Why don't we just back out of another world agreement? I am so anti-BAFP."

Anti-TBA: Anti-The Bush Administration. Has little to do with America or American's in its present, ever changing, intellectually-nebulous form. Usually used for far reach or generalized policy decisions or spoken gaffs. Proper usage:

"I am so anti-TBA for their policy towards Iraq."

"Boy. I am so anti-TBA. The man has no brain."

Anti-American: Being against the people that populate a country known as America. From the commoner to the richest executive. Being anti-American encompasses not only the bum on the street, but the man that refuses to give him change as well. It includes 6 year olds and 70 year olds. Rich and poor. This can not be used for blanket statements about America, as more precise "anti-s" are available. This has been duely seperated from government institutions since it is rare they work for the good of the country or the people. Proper usage:

"I hate the people of America. They are rude. I guess that makes me anti-American."

Anti-America: (1)Being against the country itself, whether crappy geography, poor weather, or what have you. Proper usage:

"Man whats up with that Hudson Bay?? I am so anti-America."

(2) Often, this can also be used as a blanket "anti-" comment that encompasses all of America (physical features) as well as the people, politics, and governing bodies. The ACIARP however takes a dim view of this definition due to its outrageous coverage, when there are more precise "anti-s" to use.

Anti-BAMS: Wish you had a term for the frequent military screw-ups? Well here it is, the "anti-Bush Administration Military Stategy." Proper usage:

"Jesus. Why don't we knock out a little more civilian infrastructure? They don't need water anyway. I am so anti-BAMS."

The ACIARP is currently investigating other "anti-s" in which to better narrow down complaints about that quirky nation we call "America."

[Longinius 1]

Uhm, hmmm... I dont know quite what to say. But if the people that used to agree with me all of a sudden explained to me that I might just be wrong about certain things, I would definately take a step back and review my stance.

FSPilot, refuses to do so. I just admire the determination of that. Its of a nature I never before encountered. I just wonder if it isnt borderline insanity...

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ July 23 2003,23:34)]You're fuckin' kidding. You know what a joke is, right? Sarcasm, irony, any of these things ring a bell? For fuck's sake, I didn't spend most of the old Iraq Thread trying to salvage the reputation of my country from the likes of you to have to put up with this nitpicky bullshit. So what is it? Am I anti-American now? Hmm?

You're saying it's a joke now?  Trying to salvage another reputation?

Let's look at this logically now

If I said "I hate germans" on the internet, am I joking or not?

Can't really tell can you?

I am so sick of you taking things out of context and blowing things out of proportion. How can you possibly equate a statement about hating an entire nation with a statement about the irony of a non-elected government body removing holidays in the name of 'freedom' and 'democracy'. Your inability to do anything but nitpick continues to astound me- and is it too late to point out that the Iraqi government made the change? So why on Earth would any joke on that subject be construed as criticizing America? They are unconnected. This is some new kind of logic I haven't seen before.

[denoir 0]

To Tex and the others - don't get upset. Take it from me, I've had some experience in debating with him. Look at it as an exercise in Zen. Your mind is freed from the world of logic and you are one step closer to enlightenment. Reading FSPilot posts is like reading Zen koans.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

To Tex and the others - don't get upset. Take it from me, I've had some experience in debating with him. Look at it as an exercise in Zen. Your mind is freed from the world of logic and you are one step closer to enlightenment. Reading FSPilot posts is like reading Zen koans.

I had to edit out at least 3 things that would have earned a PR from my above post before I hit 'add reply'.

[FSPilot 0]

Longingus

Quote[/b] ]Uhm, hmmm... I dont know quite what to say. But if the people that used to agree with me all of a sudden explained to me that I might just be wrong about certain things, I would definately take a step back and review my stance.

FSPilot, refuses to do so. I just admire the determination of that. Its of a nature I never before encountered. I just wonder if it isnt borderline insanity...

People used to agree with me?  When did this happen?

tex

Quote[/b] ]I am so sick of you taking things out of context and blowing things out of proportion. How can you possibly equate a statement about hating an entire nation with a statement about the irony of a non-elected government body removing holidays in the name of 'freedom' and 'democracy'. Your inability to do anything but nitpick continues to astound me- and is it too late to point out that the Iraqi government made the change? So why on Earth would any joke on that subject be construed as criticizing America? They are unconnected. This is some new kind of logic I haven't seen before.

You must be bad at telling jokes then.  It looked like another honest-to-goodness stupidly irrational criticism to me.

Do you go to crowded buildings and yell "Fire!" then expect people to take it as a joke?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

You must be bad at telling jokes then.  It looked like another honest-to-goodness stupidly irrational criticism to me.

Do you go to crowded buildings and yell "Fire!" then expect people to take it as a joke?

It doesn;t surprise me at all that your sense of humor is underdeveloped as it would match right up with your logic, reasoning, and critical thinking skills. And once again, you make an overgeneralization and a sensationalistic remark which completely obscures the actual issue. Please, please explain to simple ol' unfunny me how on Earth you can equate an ironic commentary on a nascent government with shouting 'fire' in a movie theater?

Anyways, you still haven't responed to my other points, so for the sake of saving your poor eyes the strain of re-reading a post with large words in it, I'll just re-post them way

down

here

mmkay?

Quote[/b] ]How can you possibly equate a statement about hating an entire nation with a statement about the irony of a non-elected government body removing holidays in the name of 'freedom' and 'democracy'.

Quote[/b] ]and is it too late to point out that the Iraqi government made the change? So why on Earth would any joke on that subject be construed as criticizing America? They are unconnected.

[FSPilot 0]

tex

Quote[/b] ]It doesn;t surprise me at all that your sense of humor is underdeveloped as it would match right up with your logic, reasoning, and critical thinking skills. And once again, you make an overgeneralization and a sensationalistic remark which completely obscures the actual issue. Please, please explain to simple ol' unfunny me how on Earth you can equate an ironic commentary on a nascent government with shouting 'fire' in a movie theater?

Beacuse there's no way to tell the difference between your "ironic" commentary and trying to be serious, and shouting "fire" in a theater and being joking.

Quote[/b] ]How can you possibly equate a statement about hating an entire nation with a statement about the irony of a non-elected government body removing holidays in the name of 'freedom' and 'democracy'.

I was using it as an example that you will go to unreasonable lengths to criticise what the US does.

Quote[/b] ]and is it too late to point out that the Iraqi government made the change? So why on Earth would any joke on that subject be construed as criticizing America? They are unconnected.

The current Iraqi government is mostly controlled by Americans.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]Beacuse there's no way to tell the difference between your "ironic" commentary and trying to be serious, and shouting "fire" in a theater and being joking.

It seems that you're the one with the problem if you cannot distinguish between breaking the law and making a joke. Luckily I can, so you can rest easy tonight America- you don't have to worry about me attempting to make a political joke but instead ending up causing several serious injuries in a movie theater.

Quote[/b] ]I was using it as an example that you will go to unreasonable lengths to criticise what the US does.

I beg to differ. I go to unusual lengths to try and find justifications for some of the stuff our current government does. Notice I said government, not country. The United States is a great nation with great people in it, and nothing can change that, even you contributing your genes to the melting pot couldn't change that. Our government, however, I have no illusions about.

Quote[/b] ]The current Iraqi government is mostly controlled by Americans.

*buzzer* Wrong. This holiday change was the first official act of the Iraqi interrim government, which is composed entirely of Iraqis.

[Gollum1 0]

I hate germans

*GASP* You racist bastard!

LOL J/K

For once, I almost agree with FSPilot in these last few pages...on SOME points.

Some people here do go to unreasonable lengths to criticize TBA and drag American troops into it. (Unwittingly?)