The Iraq Thread 2

[theavonlady 2]

This action in Iraq just seems like gross overkill to me.

Strange. After reading your own words just above these, I thought you had concluded exactly the opposite.

[ralphwiggum 6]

I dont think you can really compare the two, its different scenarios. In Waco, it was lawenforcement. In Iraq, its a war. In Waco, the ATF were fighting fellow citizens in a compound filled with women and children. They didnt know who would shoot at them and who didnt. In this case in Iraq its safe to assume that any Iraqi juts pointing a gun at a US soldier is a valid target. I also dont think they have the same restrictions and protocols to follow.

indeed. that's why it took LEOs long time to decide whether to go in or not. and when they went in, they were out gunned and outnumbered. the point i'm trying to make here is that for someone already inside, the danger of damage to oneself is greater for those who enter the house.

Quote[/b] ]This action in Iraq just seems like gross overkill to me

i guess commanders thought they would rather not take a chance. who knows how many bodyguards he would have?

[theavonlady 2]

Just some relevant details:

- The raid operation took 6 hours.

- The home's second floor had been hardened against attack with bulletproof glass.

[Longinius 1]

"Strange. After reading your own words just above these, I thought you had concluded exactly the opposite."

Then you thought wrong

I can understand the part about not taking chances, rather safe than sorry and all that. But it still feels like overkill to me. But then again, maybe the goal never was to take them alive for a trial or anything and in that case it makes sense.

[theavonlady 2]

OK, back to the regular news.

[FallenPaladin 0]

what's odd? 4 US soldiers out of 200? only 4 and US deployed 200?

According to the report, attack helicopters rocketed the house. Tanks were involved.

So yes, it is a bit odd that it took all that firepower to subdue a couple of Iraqis with handguns - and in the process to lose 4 soldiers.  

Like in those Hollywood movies...

[theavonlady 2]

Like in those Hollywood movies...

Or in OFP.

Anyway, all I read about was 4 US wounded. None killed in the operation AFAIK.

[FallenPaladin 0]

Don`t you compare Hollywood and OFP!!!

[theavonlady 2]

Don`t you compare Hollywood and OFP!!!    

Oh yes I will!

[USSoldier11B 0]

Overkill? The Operation was conducted by conventional infantry which tells me one of these things:

1. They didn't know exactly who was there.

or

2. They had no intention of capturing them alive.

Compare it to Operation Gothic Serpent in Somalia. They sent Delta and the Rangers just to capture a few of Adid's top aides. Here they intially sent out a few troops from the Hundred and Worst to search a house, based on a tip then left for an hour to wait for reinforcements upon refusal of the occupying parties to enter the premisis. I find it confusing that no special operations were used here....that or we just don't know about it yet...

[theavonlady 2]

Overkill? The Operation was conducted by conventional infantry

Well, they called in some choppers to fire some missiles into the house. Still doesn't sound like overkill to me.

[ACES_KEVIN 0]

I got to find the research on it but there was some basic silly polls posted ive seen somewere and one went as follows.

The people were polled on Why they obeyed the speed limit.

A)There own safety

B)Fear of being ticketed

C)To conserve vehicle

Huge majority of response was fear of being ticketed, i dont exactly go by what i said there schoeler no reason to be a child yourself, just fun to play devils advocate sometimes and get some opinions :P if we all went around agreeing it would not be any fun and you wouldnt learn anything or broaden your horizons any :P

And avon also makes a nice point ... as usual

[USSoldier11B 0]

Now a (M)assive (O)rdnance (A)ir (B)urst bomb would have been.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Well, they called in some choppers to fire some missiles into the house. Still doesn't sound like overkill to me.

That part is confusing to me. How can you call in attack helicopters that fire a dozen of missiles into the house and still suffer casualties.

I mean, why not just call in a real air strike? It's not that the chance of survival from a helicopter attack is much greater.  

Well, perhaps they suffered the casualties before they called in the choppers.

Anyhow, it will be interesting to hear Saddam's next broadcast and hear what he has to say about all this. He lost his both sons, so one could imagine that he is quite pissed off.

[theavonlady 2]

I got to find the research on it but there was some basic silly polls posted ive seen somewere and one went as follows.

The people were polled on Why they obeyed the speed limit.

A)There own safety

B)Fear of being ticketed

C)To conserve vehicle

Huge majority of response was fear of being ticketed

OK but had the poll question been something like "why don't you kill your worst enemy", I would assume the majority of people would select an answer relating to morals of decent human behavior.

However, take away a decent human environment and people might answer "who says I wouldn't".

Quote[/b] ]And avon also makes a nice point ... as usual

I'm trying for 2 outta 2.

[USSoldier11B 0]

He has another son and two daughters I believe, but they are younger.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]

Well, they called in some choppers to fire some missiles into the house. Still doesn't sound like overkill to me.

That part is confusing to me. How can you call in attack helicopters that fire a dozen of missiles into the house and still suffer casualties.

Were the casualties suffered before or after, as you yourself asked?

Quote[/b] ]I mean, why not just call in a real air strike? It's not that the chance of survival from a helicopter attack is much greater.

Choppers might be easier and cheaper to call in for a one-house mission, don't you think? Unless there was some AA threat around the neighborhood.

I mean, with a chopper, you can hover nicely, drink your coffee and make sure the the missile is aimed for the window's middle pane. (Once again, OFP teaches us real life lessons).

[ACES_KEVIN 0]

Quote[/b] ]OK but had the poll question been something like "why don't you kill your worst enemy", I would assume the majority of people would select an answer relating to morals of decent human behavior.

However, take away a decent human environment and people might answer "who says I wouldn't".

Damn you! You will be wrong one day and make a silly bad point and ruin your pristine reputation and damn it im going to be there and call you on it

But for now, your 2 outa 2

Im still just playing devils advocate to get some opinions out

Kev

[USSoldier11B 0]

Kiowas (we call em "Quick Fixes") are a division level asset, fast movers are not. It's likely that they could get one there faster.

[OxPecker 0]

Wahoo! Let's all pat ourselves on the back and smaoke a big fat Cuban for killing two relatives of a dictator! yeehaw!! God bless America! Our skillz are L337

[theavonlady 2]

Who snitched on Uday and Qusay? Does money talk?

[denoir 0]

Clinton defends Bush

Now this is interesting

[theavonlady 2]

Clinton defends Bush

Now this is interesting

In case anyone forgot or didn't know it in the first place, what Bush said verbatim was:

"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

There's no lie here. There's either bad information, according to the CIA (yeh - they've been super reliable these past few years) or questionable information (the British still stand by it).

Remember that Clinton was burned at least once by the CIA, when in 1998 he ordered a cruise missile attack on what was supposed to be an Al-Qaida nerve gas factory in Khartoum, Sudan. Turned out that they made aspirin there.

I suppose this was America's sloppy attempt to corner the North African pain reliever market. Thank heavens for Germany's Bayer to maintain the balance of power!

[theavonlady 2]

Damn you! You will be wrong one day and make a silly bad point and ruin your pristine reputation and damn it im going to be there and call you on it  

Now you owe me an apology.

[bn880 5]

Anyhow, it will be interesting to hear Saddam's next broadcast and hear what he has to say about all this. He lost his both sons, so one could imagine that he is quite pissed off.

Well you know how it goes, Saddam can be pissed as much as he wants, the fact is he didn't even prepare for this war properly, the guy is out of his mind. He may have thought he's with the good guys since he was wrongfully accused of WMD posession, but he should realize, the truth wins out but not without a real struggle.

And to the folks still defending any deaths in Iraq, why should anyone else die for a worthless and unjust cause, debating is nice and fun, but sometimes peoples lives are the topic, not OFP AI. People who are so willing to say I'm glad a war happened, I'm glad they killed this guy or that guy, maybe it's time to go see the real events for yourself.