The Iraq Thread 2

[Akira 0]

I'm not talking about the way they were killed. I was referring to this:

Quote[/b] ]Shoulda slathered them in Gravy Train and thrown em to dogs

Thats not gloating. That's wishing they got what their crimes desired. Justice yes. I would prefer them to be put on the global stage. But that likelyhood is unlikely.

And if you really think that woulda happened...

I got this nice bridge for ya. It's got a great view of Brooklyn.

[FSPilot 0]

Ex-RoNin

Quote[/b] ]I'm glad that human rights and the judiciary are well respected institutions in the United States

Let's tar and feather this anti-American terrorist!!!

Anyway, don't look at this as celebrating a death of 4 people. Look at it as celebrating one more step towards peace in Iraq.

[Warin 0]

Ex-RoNin

Quote[/b] ]I'm glad that human rights and the judiciary are well respected institutions in the United States

Let's tar and feather this anti-American terrorist!!!

Anyway, don't look at this as celebrating a death of 4 people.  Look at it as celebrating one more step towards peace in Iraq.

I see you are still making hte assumption that the only people in Iraq still fighting are disaffect Ba'athists. I dont think that has been proven yet to anyones satisfaction. I'll believe that Iraq is moving forward when there is water and power in all of baghdad, and people arent shooting at Americans every day.

I hope these were Saddam's sons. While I would rather see them tried and convicted of their crimes, I wont weep if they are no longer with the rest of the living world tonight. Everything I have read or seen has pointed to them being rather brutal bastards. The world is truly better off without them.

But like Denoir said, lets wait for some actual proof. This wouldnt be the first time that initial reports have turned out to be false.

[Koolkid101 0]

I believe it was them...... Of course I believe alot of silly things.

[SgtBarnes 0]

Not you personally. CNN for instance had a big caption that covered half their homepage that said "TRUMPED!", showing their pictures from the coalition death cards. They've removed it now. I guess they realised themselves that it wasn't very professional of them.

These type of triumphant headlines are to be expected.

At least it`s not quite at crass as the Sun after sinking the Belgrano (killing 386 men).

[USSoldier11B 0]

Sorry, might be insensitive but I see it as a small victory for the coalition forces. Then again, what's sensitive about war?

[bn880 5]

Hmm, the news here were reporting 4 US and 4 Iraqi casualties in that fight which lasted 6 hours. Sounds odd to me...

[ralphwiggum 6]

what's odd? 4 US soldiers out of 200? only 4 and US deployed 200?

[denoir 0]

Sorry, might be insensitive but I see it as a small victory for the coalition forces. Then again, what's sensitive about war?

Perhaps the fact that there is de-facto no war? The fact that they were hunted down like animals?

Don't take me wrong, I don't feel a bit sorry for the bastards. I feel sorry for those that vindictivly ordered them to be hunted down.

If we look at it from a different point of view: The coalliton command have hinted that they believe that the two brothers were connected to the attacks on US troops. If we assume that it is the case (very doubtful, considering how unpopular they were, but let's assume it anyway), it does not at all mean that the number of attacks will be reduced. If they somehow were involved then what we have seen is that they have a number of very loyal followers. Followers that had the perfect chance to quit once Saddam's regime was gone. They didn't. So their dead leader would most likely be seen as martyrs and prompt more attacks, possibly escalating the guerilla warfare.

[denoir 0]

what's odd? 4 US soldiers out of 200? only 4 and US deployed 200?

According to the report, attack helicopters rocketed the house. Tanks were involved.

So yes, it is a bit odd that it took all that firepower to subdue a couple of Iraqis with handguns - and in the process to lose 4 soldiers.

[USSoldier11B 0]

Denoir I highly doubt that Odai and Qusai Hussein just put down their weapons and walked away when the regime was toppled. It was reported that the 101st soldiers requested to search the house first and they were denied entrance. These men could have surrendered if they wanted to.

[ralphwiggum 6]

If we look at it from a different point of view: The coalliton command have hinted that they believe that the two brothers were connected to the attacks on US troops. If we assume that it is the case (very doubtful, considering how unpopular they were, but let's assume it anyway), it does not at all mean that the number of attacks will be reduced. If they somehow were involved then what we have seen is that they have a number of very loyal followers. Followers that had the perfect chance to quit once Saddam's regime was gone. They didn't. So their dead leader would most likely be seen as martyrs and prompt more attacks, possibly escalating the guerilla warfare.

although i agree that Uday is not popular, i don't think Qusai or Sadam himself is on the same level of distrust from Saddam followers.

as long as there are followers who think they can revenge Hussein's fall, there will be attacks. on this point, i agree that it can take no formal structure of command to be executed. however, capture of Hussein would provide less incentive for them to continue fighting.

just read Reuters report. a worker at Iraqi TV who was whipped by Uday himself on several occasions said, "I don't want him to be dead. I want to torture him to death."....another history lesson. a ruler muct rule with love, not with fear.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]Denoir I highly doubt that Odai and Qusai Hussein just put down their weapons and walked away when the regime was toppled. It was reported that the 101st soldiers requested to search the house first and they were denied entrance. These men could have surrendered if they wanted to.

I'm sure they could. I'm not saying that they were killed in cold blood. I'm just questioning how ethical it is to gloat that they were hunted down and subsequently killed. It's not the action itself I have a problem with, it's the gloating by the media.

As I said, either they were on the run and irrelevant or they will be martyrs for their followers. Those two possibilities are no reason for celebrating that they were killed.

Quote[/b] ]another history lesson. a ruler muct rule with love, not with fear.

Heh. Not necessarily true. As long as he stays in power there is no problem to rule with fear. Throughout history there have been many brutal leaders who enjoyed a long and succesful regin.

[ralphwiggum 6]

what's odd? 4 US soldiers out of 200? only 4 and US deployed 200?

According to the report, attack helicopters rocketed the house. Tanks were involved.

So yes, it is a bit odd that it took all that firepower to subdue a couple of Iraqis with handguns - and in the process to lose 4 soldiers.  

the house was pretty big IMO. they were mansions. of course there is nothing 200 men strong cannot do in seraching house, overwhelming fire power, as long as it does not hurt neighbors should be used.

remember Waco, Texas? those Davidians shot and killed several ATF agents when they tried to move in. the ones attacking are almost always in disadvantage. and I doubt it was just handguns.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Back on are previous discussion.

from ABC news, Reuters

Quote[/b] ]

Bush Aide Takes Blame for Iraq Uranium Flap

July 22

— WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush's number two national security aide on Tuesday took blame for a controversy over charges Iraq tried to buy African uranium, saying the CIA had warned him earlier that intelligence cited by Bush was suspect.

Stephen Hadley, deputy national security adviser, said he should have deleted a reference to Iraqi attempts to buy African uranium from Bush's State of the Union speech in January, because the CIA had asked him to remove similar language from an October speech by the president.

"It is now clear to me that I failed in that responsibility," Hadley told reporters. White House communications director Dan Bartlett said Bush retained confidence in Hadley and the rest of his national security team.

so, let me get this straight.

1. CIA says they did not proofread Bush's State of Union Address

2. now another aide takes the blame for not taking it out which was pointed out before the Address.

so CIA was incompetent to catch the phrase in the proof reading process, and the White House was incompetent of sorting out what CIA warned long time ago.

basically, incompetency.

[denoir 0]

One thing that should be added is that Tentet pointed the finger at the deputy NSA during his hearing. This was not a voluntary admission of his.

Anyhow what they're playing is "protect the president" game.

I wish just they would drop the Niger case and move further to the aluminum tubes, the 30,000 chemical shells that Powell mentioned and all that other so called "evidence" that was presented. The Niger case was not an isolated incident.

[ACES_KEVIN 0]

Quote[/b] ]another history lesson. a ruler must rule with love, not with fear.

Hmm isnt the bases of the governments law and order fear of getting cought and punishment.

What other reasons do most citizens have for not stealing and robbing and killing. Dont say ethics or something because although true for some its not the majorities truth.

[Blitzkri3ger 0]

Quote[/b] ]another history lesson. a ruler must rule with love, not with fear.

Hmm isnt the bases of the governments law and order fear of getting cought and punishment.

What other reasons do most citizens have for not stealing and robbing and killing. Dont say ethics or something because although true for some its not the majorities truth.

Hmm isnt the bases of the governments law and order fear of getting cought and punishment.

--No

What other reasons do most citizens have for not stealing and robbing and killing.

--Not to be interested in "stealing, robbing and kiling"!?

Dont say ethics or something because although true for some its not the majorities truth.

Ethics, eThicS, humanity, Love, Peace.......got headache yet Kevin?

[ACES_KEVIN 0]

muahaha you just mad bc you know im right.

fear is the motivation for alot of ppl in alot of decisions, such as being law biding citizens, NOT ALL but ALOT OF dont get all mad about it, it works well..

[bn880 5]

what's odd? 4 US soldiers out of 200? only 4 and US deployed 200?

Well, you don't think it's odd they lost 4 men taking on a bunch of guys with small arms? I mean, they deployed some heavy stuff there. So what happend, maybe a grenade or two, boobytraps? I'm wondering 4-4 seems realy fishy in the situation we hear of.

EDIT: So I'm not being Anti American here or anything, I just don't trust the reporting, it seems like 1/10th of what actually happens gets over to the world of the "free" I wonder where all the war photography is from Iraq, I really have not seen so much being reported from any Western sources. Most wars these days have these nice graphic and real pictures to show what really happened, seems like there are not enough now.

[crashdome 3]

My theory:

Either

1) Combination lack of interest by public and fear of the public opinion by media (so many different opinions).

Or

2) The economy is still recovering and the networks can't afford to send reporters over there anymore

[Schoeler 0]

I find it morbid to celebrate them getting killed. That shows the same lack of respect for human values as they had.

Furthermore, they were entirely insignificant now. So this is about revenge, an inability of taking the high road.

Anyhow, I'd rather wait for the DNA results before jumping to any conclusions about their deaths. These guys had a dozen doubles.

I'd bet there are a few hundred Fedayeen resistance fighters who don't consider the death of Qusay insignificant Denoir. He was, after all, their leader.

While I'm not celebrating the death of these two miscreants, I'm glad they are gone. Had I lived under the terror they imposed upon the Iraqi people, I might be more amenable to celebration. Its easy for people who have lived a nice, safe, cushy lifestyle to make moral judgments though isn't it?

[Schoeler 0]

muahaha you just mad bc you know im right.

fear is the motivation for alot of ppl in alot of decisions, such as being law biding citizens, NOT ALL but ALOT OF dont get all mad about it, it works well..

Kevin, I think you need to take a basic course in psychology my friend, fear is not the primary motivating factor in getting people to obey the law. That only applies to the bottom two tiers of the moral development scale, and of course most people under the age of six.

[theavonlady 2]

muahaha you just mad bc you know im right.

fear is the motivation for alot of ppl in alot of decisions, such as being law biding citizens, NOT ALL but ALOT OF dont get all mad about it, it works well..

Kevin, I think you need to take a basic course in psychology my friend, fear is not the primary motivating factor in getting people to obey the law.  That only applies to the bottom two tiers of the moral development scale, and of course most people under the age of six.

Here is a general article backing up that assertion.

However, I think there's a difference between people's decisions in an established society that already has laws enacted versus a completely lawless society, where the law of the jungle rules.

[Longinius 1]

"the house was pretty big IMO. they were mansions. of course there is nothing 200 men strong cannot do in seraching house, overwhelming fire power, as long as it does not hurt neighbors should be used.

remember Waco, Texas? those Davidians shot and killed several ATF agents when they tried to move in. the ones attacking are almost always in disadvantage. and I doubt it was just handguns."

I dont think you can really compare the two, its different scenarios. In Waco, it was lawenforcement. In Iraq, its a war. In Waco, the ATF were fighting fellow citizens in a compound filled with women and children. They didnt know who would shoot at them and who didnt. In this case in Iraq its safe to assume that any Iraqi juts pointing a gun at a US soldier is a valid target. I also dont think they have the same restrictions and protocols to follow.

This action in Iraq just seems like gross overkill to me.