The Iraq Thread 2

[denoir 0]

Baghdadis polled

Quote[/b] ]Baghdad is on a knife-edge. Three in four of its residents say the city is now more dangerous than when Saddam Hussein was in power.

Very interesting survey, although a bit confusing. Basically they say that everything is worse than it was under Saddam and that the war was for oil. At the same time a majority think the war was right. A majority also want the Iraqis to take over power NOW, but they want US troops to stay for 12 months.

At the same time, I think one should keep the fact in mind that these same people when interviewed 6 months ago pledged to fight to the death for Saddam. Democratization is a process that takes time, and I'm not sure how reliable their answers are. Do they say what they think or do they say what they expect their current rulers want them to think?

[ralphwiggum 6]

Very interesting survey, although a bit confusing. Basically they say that everything is worse than it was under Saddam and that the war was for oil. At the same time a majority think the war was right. A majority also want the Iraqis to take over power NOW, but they want US troops to stay for 12 months.  

At the same time, I think one should keep the fact in mind that these same people when interviewed 6 months ago pledged to fight to the death for Saddam. Democratization is a process that takes time, and I'm not sure how reliable their answers are. Do they say what they think or do they say what they expect their current rulers want them to think?  

I'm pretty sure Iraqis are capable of thinking what is best for them. They knew Hussein was a bastard, but fear gripped them. now that he is beaten, they want to take cautious step towards a new Iraq. They don't want US to pull out now, caugsing vaccuum, but they want step-by-step process that ensures reasonable balance of progress and safety

[denoir 0]

I'm sure they are capable of thinking for themselves, but I'm not sure they are willing to say out loud what they are thinking. As I said, it takes time to get used to being in a democracy.

Even in ex-Yugoslavia, that was far from a dictatorship like the one in Iraq, you could see this effect. Generally people over there love to discuss politics. As a matter of fact that's their number on conversational topic: they always complain about whoever is in power. This is in private however. As soon as it comes to making an official statement they back down and reply with some platitude or with something that they expect you want to hear.

I would not be surprised at all if this was true for Iraq too.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Shoeler

Quote[/b] ]Tex.  I think your dead on.  There are already impeachment rumblings in Washington, and with the election year coming up, I think the democrats smell the possibility of winning oh say about the next six administrations in a row, if they can prove the President and his henchmen lied to the American people.  This is not going to go away.  Also, they have to be somewhat nice to Tenet, imagine how badly he could burn them all, and not just on the war issue.  Like good old J. Edgar, any CIA or FBI director worth his salt, probably has a nice little collection of personal portfolios on everybody important.  And, then there's the whole issue of what happened the last time a President fucked with the CIA.  Sure we all believe it was a lone gunman, right!

At the same time keep an eye on the democrats.  All of the ones who supported warring with Iraq when Clinton was in office are now doing a 180 and criticising the president.

Typical washington stuff.  But you just know rush limbaugh is eating it up.

Which is why I'm finding Howard Dean a more and more attractive candidate every time I hear him speak. He isn't as liberal in his policies as he is made out to be, and at the same time he opposed the war from the start and stuck to his guns, and that had to take a lot of guts. Incidentally, this next presidential election will be the first that I'm old enough to cast my ballot in.

Anyhow, I haven't even had the heart to turn on Fox in the past few days, as I don't think I could handle the strident defense that they're trying to put up for the President. CNN is doing what they always do during a presidential scandal, which is to constantly have segments entitled something like "Is A Scandal Looming?" Whenever CNN asks the same question every hour and a half, you know that their answer is yes

And the print news is where the administration is getting nailed the most- Time's cover story is questioning whether TBA lied, and Newsweek is devoted to how awful things are in Iraq at the moment. I'm no expert, but I see things getting extremely hairy for the White House in a few weeks (especially if something else comes to light), and I can't say I'm especially unhappy about it.

Anyhow, I admit it, I got suckered in. I thought, hey, with Saddam's previous record, there is no way in hell that he got rid of the WMD. Every day, it looks like I'm becoming more wrong. And I always half-believed that the White House wasn't going in with the best of intentions, but I figured that getting rid of Saddam and his WMDs would be worth letting those jerks advance their fifth column agendas.

I was wrong on all counts. I even kinda miss the old bastard, you know? Noone to kick around anymore.

[denoir 0]

Typical washington stuff.  But you just know rush limbaugh is eating it up.

I just checked his website (I do it from time to time for a laugh). He claims that the Niger uranium case was a French conspiracy. [ ] Furthermore he says that the Bush administration was tricked by the left into apologizing.

I think Rush and Rummy are twin brothers Both are complete morons and like to talk a lot.

[ran 0]

Typical washington stuff.  But you just know rush limbaugh is eating it up.

I just checked his website (I do it from time to time for a laugh). He claims that the Niger uranium case was a French conspiracy. [ ] Furthermore he says that the Bush administration was tricked by the left into apologizing.

I think Rush and Rummy are twin brothers Both are complete morons and like to talk a lot.

what have we done once agin ?

could i have a link and the physical address of this man so i can send him an explosive letter ?

[bn880 5]

Yeah ok don't worry, no one in the right mind believes the French conspiracy theories. The guy is just making an ass of himself there.

[ran 0]

Yeah ok don't worry, no one in the right mind believes the French conspiracy theories.  The guy is just making an ass of himself there.  

i don't want him to make an ass of himself , i want myself to make of him a Cesar compression or something like a Dali or Picasso oeuver

[brgnorway 0]

@ July 17 2003,01:41)]

Quote[/b] ]Anyhow, I admit it, I got suckered in. I thought, hey, with Saddam's previous record, there is no way in hell that he got rid of the WMD. Every day, it looks like I'm becoming more wrong. And I always half-believed that the White House wasn't going in with the best of intentions, but I figured that getting rid of Saddam and his WMDs would be worth letting those jerks advance their fifth column agendas.

Instead of saying "I told you so" I'll rather say I'm impressed by this sign of integrity. Nothing is better than admitting one was wrong. I hope for your nation's sake (and the rest of the world since we are affected by your policy) that most of your fellow countrymen will set ideologi aside and be critical as you are!

Cheers mate!

[FSPilot 0]

I...

Quote[/b] ]...no one in the right mind believes the French conspiracy theories.

... nevermind

I can't view half of the stuff on his website until I get a membership, which I might do just for kicks. Does anyone have any non-pay links for this French conspiracy theory?

I'm... uh... naturally interested.

[walker 0]

Hi all

I still think they should be given untill the end of September to find the WMD

But here look at this article

Former Attorney General calls for Bush to be impeached

And the legal case

I also think the administrations will jump before they are pushed or there parties will never be electable for decades. So there will probably be an in party coup. In the UK the men in the grey suits (Party Whips and and clique bigwigs) come in the back door of number 10 and tell them they have to resign for the good of the party. I suppose something similar happens in the US. The only thing is in the case of the US administration there will probably be other members of the administration who have to go.

Not looking good for the George and Tony Show

They Have to find the WMD!

Kind Rgards walker

[ran 0]

I...

Quote[/b] ]...no one in the right mind believes the French conspiracy theories.

... nevermind

I can't view half of the stuff on his website until I get a membership, which I might do just for kicks.  Does anyone have any non-pay links for this French conspiracy theory?

I'm... uh... naturally interested.  

beware ... letter bombs ..... Formex in the letter ......

[denoir 0]

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home....st.html

Quote[/b] ]"I told you way back that this Niger information was supplied by the French and that it was dubious and that the French did this to sort of derail and sabotage what we were trying to do in Iraq, primarily at the United Nations.

"The moment this administration decided to apologize for this and to take blame for it, they misunderstood the left."

Poor guy, perhaps somebody should send him a map of Europe and point out that Italy and France are two different countries (The Niger documents originated from Italian intelligence agencies)

[bn880 5]

They Have to find the WMD!

Kind Rgards walker

You make it sound like you hid one there? No but I mean, it has to be pretty close to what they claimed existed, otherwise diplomacy was the way to go. And it's time to take responsibility.

[walker 0]

Hi all

For those of you who like Conspiracy theories try this site

Who the bush family allegedly murdered to get in power

   

Or where the skeletons are buried

Kind Regards Walker

[FSPilot 0]

ran

Quote[/b] ]beware ... letter bombs ..... Formex in the letter ......

I guess I'll have to start smelling my letters for the scent of cheese

denoir

Quote[/b] ]http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home....st.html

Quote[/b] ]"I told you way back that this Niger information was supplied by the French and that it was dubious and that the French did this to sort of derail and sabotage what we were trying to do in Iraq, primarily at the United Nations.

"The moment this administration decided to apologize for this and to take blame for it, they misunderstood the left."

Poor guy, perhaps somebody should send him a map of Europe and point out that Italy and France are two different countries (The Niger documents originated from Italian intelligence agencies)

I'd like to see more people dig into this.  Don't get me wrong, I like Rush Limbaugh, but I wouldn't accept him as my only source.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ] I like Rush Limbaugh

Why am I not surprised?

It was pretty funny, just after the war ended he had a list called "Rush is Right". On the list he had five or six items where according to him his prediction had come true. One of them was "WMD found" and another one was "Saddam confirmed dead". He had some references to some very questionable sources.

The next day the list was shorter. The day after that even shorter. When he was down to two items, he removed the list

[FSPilot 0]

yeah he's pretty boastful. then again, it was hilarious when some democrat repeated what limbaugh predicted she would say almost verbatim.

[denoir 0]

The spies who pushed for war - The Guardian

The Beginning of the end? (Yahoo news Op/Ed)

CIA didn't get disputed documents until February 2003 after Bush claim (some new interesting information)

[ralphwiggum 6]

FBI looks into Niger document

[USSoldier11B 0]

You are off-topic, yet again this is leaning toward "Bash America" instead of "War in Iraq".

Quote[/b] ]FALLUJAH, Iraq (July 16) -- The sergeant at the 2nd Battle Combat Team Headquarters pulled me aside in the corridor. "I've got my own 'Most Wanted' list," he told me.

He was referring to the deck of cards the U.S. government published, featuring Saddam Hussein, his sons and other wanted members of the former Iraqi regime.

"The aces in my deck are Paul Bremer, Donald Rumsfeld, George Bush and Paul Wolfowitz," he said.

He was referring to the four men who are running U.S. policy here in Iraq -- the four men who are ultimately responsible for the fate of U.S. troops here.

Those four are not popular at 2nd BCT these days. It is home to 4,000 troops from the 2nd Brigade of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division.

The soldiers were deployed to Kuwait last September. They were among the first troops in Baghdad during the war. And now they've been in the region longer than other troops: 10 months and counting.

They were told they'd be going home in May. Then in early July. Then late July. Then last week they heard that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld had mentioned them on Capitol Hill.

"The 2nd Brigade is — the plan is that they would return in August, having been there something like 10 months," said Rumsfeld.

He added: "The services and the Joint Staff have been working with Central Command to develop a rotation plan so that we can, in fact, see that we treat these terrific young men and young women in a way that's respectful of their lives and their circumstances."

Solid words from a solid source. Soldiers called their families. Commanding officers began preparations.

‘I Don’t Care Anymore’

Now comes word from the Pentagon: Not so fast.

The U.S. military command in Iraq said Tuesday it plans to complete the withdrawal of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division by September, but officials said they could make no hard promises because of the unsettled state of security in Baghdad and elsewhere in Iraq.

"If Donald Rumsfeld were sitting here in front of us, what would you say to him?" I asked a group of soldiers who gathered around a table, eager to talk to a visiting reporter.

"If he was here," said Pfc. Jason Punyahotra, "I would ask him why we're still here, why we've been told so many times and it's changed."

In the back of the group, Spc. Clinton Deitz put up his hand. "If Donald Rumsfeld was here," he said, "I'd ask him for his resignation."

Those are strong words from troops used to following orders. They say they will continue to do their job, but they no longer seem to have their hearts in the mission.

"I used to want to help these people," said Pfc. Eric Rattler, "but now I don't really care about them anymore. I've seen so much, you know, little kids throwing rocks at you. Once you pacify an area, it seems like the area you just came from turns bad again. I'd like this country to be all right, but I don't care anymore."

Wondering Why

What they care about is their families. Sgt. Terry Gilmore had to call his wife, Stacey, this week to her that he wouldn't be home in a few weeks to see her and their two little children.

"When I told her, she started crying," Gilmore said, his eyes moistening. "I mean, I almost started crying. I felt like my heart was broken. We couldn't figure out why they do it. Why they can keep us over here right after they told us we were coming home."

Sgt. Felipe Vega, who oversees the platoon, sat alone in the platoon quarters, writing a letter. A photo of his wife, Rhonda, was taped to the wall above him.

It is Vega's job to maintain morale. That's not easy, he told me, when the Army keeps changing the orders.

"They turn around and slap you in the face," he said.

When asked if that's the way it feels, he said, "Yeah, kicked in the guts, slapped in the face."

Losing Faith

The 2nd Brigade originally came to Kuwait for six months of exercises. Then they stayed to fight the war. Like the others, Vega thought that would be the end of it.

"What was told to us in Kuwait," he said, "was the fastest way to go home was through Baghdad. And that's what we did."

But more than three months later they are still here.

"Well it pretty much makes me lose faith in the Army," said Pfc. Jayson Punyhotra, one of the soldiers grouped around the table. "I mean, I don't really believe anything they tell me. If they told me we were leaving next week, I wouldn't believe them."

Fighting words from men who are eager to put down their weapons.  

This is treason, it's ok for civilians to say such things, but these men are bordering on insubordination. Even when Clinton was in office we were told to keep our mouths shut. I'm sure the brass is currently reaming these guys asses, in my Civil Affairs class we were pretty much told to shut up and do our jobs unless authorized by the commander. Despite the reasons for this war, and it's shoddy justification, I still believe in it's objective.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Yeah, and it's a testament to how badly the Pentagon is fucking our troops up the ass that they're willing to talk to reporters in contravention of their training. These guys aren't committing treason, they're getting a taste of what our troops went through back during the Vietnam era- and back then at least they had a combat rotation set up.

[USSoldier11B 0]

maybe so....but these guys knew what they were signing up for...(college money I guess) My gradfather spent 4 years in Europe fighting WWII. These guys are being sissies.

[FSPilot 0]

Did they think they were going to a boy scout camp or something? Sure they're willing to die for their country, take bad pay, go through intense physical training, but don't ask them to work overtime.

Don't get me wrong, I'd want to see my family as much as the next guy. But the military is more than a job. You have to be willing to make sacrifices.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

They signed up to fight and die, and they've done both. They've been told by their CiC that they won the war, and now they'd just like to know why they're still getting shot at. They did their job, and now they just want a rotation to a posting in the contiguous 48. Face it man, they did their job extremely well, and as a reward they're being hung out to dry by the Pentagon and the White House. Here's how:

Rumsfeld wants to reduce the number of divisions in the Army- General Franks didn't retire because he wanted to write his memoirs. He was offered the Army spot in the Joint Chiefs, but contingent on that was cooperating with Rumsfeld, who is intent on gutting the traditional army in favor of the cool high-tech stuff that sounds good on the nightly news.

President Bush is doing their best to shut other countries out of Iraq's reconstruction- yeah I know, why should they get a piece of the pie if they didn't bleed, right? That isn't the point. The point is that we can't do it on our own, and trying to do so will mean that guys like the 2nd Brigade of the 3rd ID will continue to be stuck in Iraq, and their moral will sink lower and lower. This sort of shit is what makes senior NCOs not re-up the next time their contract's up, and you know what a blow that is to a professional Army. So anyways, sure they're asking countries to help, but not part of a NATO or UN umbrella. Rather, they want everything under a unified Coalition (read: US) command structure. And that means we're going to get an understrength division from India, and that's it for now. Our CiC isn't supporting his troops by pursuing bad policy as well as supporting Rumsfeld's dumbass idea of what the Army should be.

Soldiers have an obligation to follow orders, and our boys are. But their commanders have an obligation to look out for their troops, and right now the granola-munching hippie lying in front of the San Diego naval base road entrance is doing more to support our troops than the leaders of our country. And that is fucking unnacceptable.