killagee 0 Posted June 11, 2003 Extension of immunity Official Site What makes the US so special its soldiers and commanders have immunity from this court? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Major Fubar 0 Posted June 11, 2003 At a guess: Might makes right Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tex -USMC- 0 Posted June 11, 2003 Because you aren't the proverbial boss of us. With war crimes charges being filed in the Belgian court system against the US, and all the political hatred against America, do you honestly think that we would voluntarily make our soldiers accountable to a system that is run by people who don't like us? In a perfect world, we absolutely should sign on to something like the ICC. However, currently there is too much potential for the ICC to be abused for political ends by countries who are opposed to the US. Just like the UN, for example. Just this year, you've watched the UN turn into a huge political roadblock against US goals. Now, I know how that's turned out, but remember who architected that resistance- countries who had ulterior motives in preventing regime change in Iraq. I know that not starting a war for bad reasons is better than starting a war for bad reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that these international organizations are being abused for political reasons. The same could happen with the ICC, and that's why we won't allow our soldiers to be accountable to it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 11, 2003 The Belgian charges are: 1) Filed by Iraqis, not the Belgian government 2) Irrelevant 3) Have no legal international foundation As for the ICC - it is a criminal court, not a political institution and the judges and lawyers are chosen based on their legal experiences, not on their political position. Furthermore there is no 1:1 representation of countries in the ICC. The judges may or may not come from any country. Unlike the UN it does not have political affiliations and is not related to any country. The UN Security Council and General Assembly are political forums per definition. The ICC has nothing to do with politics. Also the rules are very strict and clear - the geneva conventions. Nothing less, nothing more. Anyhow, it doesn't matter as the EU and most of the world, apart from some smaller developing countries have told USA to shove their immunity where the sun doesn't shine. That includes your prescious allies such as Britain, Australia, Spain and Denmark. If US soldiers have been suspected of war crimes, they will be put in front of the ICC regardless if the US government agrees with it or not. Even more than that the ICC agreement means that every country that has signed the agreement must hunt down suspected war criminals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tovarish 0 Posted June 11, 2003 But yet, the US's allies are expected to trust in the intentions and methods of US foreign policy without any guarantee that war crimes would be persecuted. Yes, the potential for abuse is there, but we all know the US has abused it's power in dealing with other countries before. If you want to push your weight around on an international level, you have to expect to be scrutinized and made accountable for fuckups. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tex -USMC- 0 Posted June 11, 2003 Go tex! I'm not saying it's right, because it's not. I can completely understand the argument that if we are going to start wars to haul folks like Milosevich off to the ICC, then we should be accountable as well. However, right now there is too much of a potential for the ICC to be corrupted into a backdoor way for countries to get their licks in on America. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 11, 2003 @ June 11 2003,03:16)]I'm not saying it's right, because it's not. I can completely understand the argument that if we are going to start wars to haul folks like Milosevich off to the ICC, then we should be accountable as well. Exactly. I can give you an example of that absurdity: Croatia got a couple of months ago an ultimatum to sign the non-extradition treaty or all US military help would be cut. At the same time they were threatened that if they didn't cooperate more with the war crime tribunal they would not get any more loans. [] The result was that the Croats said that they couldn't sign the non-extradition treaty because it would be unconstitutional since Croatia has ratified the ICC treaty. So now all the US military aid has been cut and some trade agreements as well, leaving a lot of Croats not particularly fond of the US. It's amazing with what skill the US government manages to alienate the world these days. You can guess that when opportunity knocks the pissed off countries will be more than willing to extradite suspected US war criminals to the ICC. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tex -USMC- 0 Posted June 11, 2003 Look, I've always been of the opinion that US foreign policy is more fucked up than Marion Berry in a crackhouse, but since 2000 it has been fucked up in an entirely different direction. However, this should not be at all surprising or worrying to you guys. A few more years of this neo-conservative bullshit and I guarantee you'll get a liberal back in the White House. That's how it's always been- each ideological sect has 4-8 years to try and enforce their policy as much as possible before they have to give someone else a turn. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 11, 2003 I hope you are right and that Bush & Co don't manage to fuck up things beyond repair. Just look at the development since 11/9 where US popularity was on an all-time high and everybody wanted to help. Look where we are today. Chirac was the first foregin leader to visit ground zero, as a token of sympathy for your loss. Today he can barely be in the same room as Bush. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tex -USMC- 0 Posted June 11, 2003 It really isn't all that big a deal. Hell, Bush's presidency is shaping up into a Reagan 2.0 deal. Only Bush isn't as charismatic or lovable, and his new and shaggier version of the Evil Empire won't leave his cave. Even Bush's economic policies are running up the same massive deficits, and the new round of tax cuts haven't even gone into effect yet. I'd say that a second Bush term is definitely possible, and even very likely, but that won't be so bad. I mean, unless Sweden simultaneously discovers oil within its borders and starts gassing Norwegians [cynicism] Here's my prediction for the next presidential election, and you can quote me on this. Bush by a few percentage points- the Dems will make a fairly strong run post-convention, but that September will most likely see the institution of 9/11 day, and I can guarantee you you wont be able to turn on Fox news without hearing "We will not falter, we will not fail yadda yadda yadda- let's roll!" This nostalgia for the state of terrified patriotism we lived in post 9/11/01 will lift Bush over the top just like getting tough on Iraq helped the Republicans win the midterms last year. Nothing gets the soccer moms out to the polls better than file footage of burning skyscrapers. Oh yeah, that and the fact that no moderate in their right mind would vote for Gephardt. [/cynicism] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killagee 0 Posted June 11, 2003 Bullying Allies, Obstructing Justice: US Impunity Agreements Unlawful Amnesty International Analysis Presses EU to Resist US Pressure (WASHINGTON, DC) -- Amnesty International challenged the legality of the impunity agreements signed by the US with, to date, Israel, Romania, Tajikistan, and East Timor, arguing that the agreements are violations of international law and consequently non-binding. News Release (September 3, 2002) OMG! They have even talked East Timor, the victim of recent vicious war crimes, into backing select imunity! (Offtopic: Hey look! that militiaman is shooting that women in the back the head with a new M-16A2! Hang on, wasnt he trained by the KOPUSSUS? Didnt the the KOPUSSUS get trained by US Special Forces?...) Activism ICC Info More Info Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0 Posted June 11, 2003 Did you notice this photo? lol, are they blaming the holocaust on the US now? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoOB 0 Posted June 11, 2003 Well this is old news, I dont know how Mr.Bush can claim that Saddam needs to be put to justice for his actions when the soldiers of the U.S armed forces can go rampage witout follow ups. Reminds me of that old song by Country Joe Mcdonald. "What we fighting for" or something to that effect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USSoldier11B 0 Posted June 11, 2003 Wow! Denoir stood up for us.... ::heart attack and dies:: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killagee 0 Posted June 11, 2003 Did you notice this photo? lol, are they blaming the holocaust on the US now? Er, Dude. I think you will find that banner depicts war crimes in general. Discussion on US Warcrimes on this forum tend be Flamed out and closed quite quickly. Lets not go there. We are talking about US exemption from the ICC. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallenPaladin 0 Posted June 11, 2003 @ June 11 2003,04:35)]It really isn't all that big a deal. Hell, Bush's presidency is shaping up into a Reagan 2.0 deal. Only Bush isn't as charismatic or lovable, and his new and shaggier version of the Evil Empire won't leave his cave. Even Bush's economic policies are running up the same massive deficits, and the new round of tax cuts haven't even gone into effect yet. I'd say that a second Bush term is definitely possible, and even very likely, but that won't be so bad. I mean, unless Sweden simultaneously discovers oil within its borders and starts gassing Norwegians  Geez... Tex, how dare you be so unpatriotic!!!! No, fun aside. Well written and if there are more US americans like you, maybe you won`t fall to the Evil Empire. I really hope so. Tex for President!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tex -USMC- 0 Posted June 11, 2003 You obviously haven't heard my opinions about Clinton. And no, you definitely wouldn't want me as President, as I have a nasty habit of telling the truth and standing on principle. Both those things have a tendency of making people angry and/or getting people killed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 11, 2003 Wow! Denoir stood up for us....::heart attack and dies:: Huh? What? You must be mistaken! You're drunk, you don't know what you are talking about! Lies, lies, all infidel lies! It wasn't me, it was my evil twin-brother.! Â No, but seriously, what are you refering to? Â Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crazysheep 1 Posted June 11, 2003 Wow! Denoir stood up for us....::heart attack and dies:: Perhaps, now, it may be time for self reflection on your part? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jinef 2 Posted June 11, 2003 Lol i wondered what the hell he was on about too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallenPaladin 0 Posted June 11, 2003 @ June 11 2003,15:58)]You obviously haven't heard my opinions about Clinton. And no, you definitely wouldn't want me as President, as I have a nasty habit of telling the truth and standing on principle. Both those things have a tendency of making people angry and/or getting people killed. Isn`t that what the US press calls Bush? He`s telling the truth, standing on principle, fighting for his believes, telling what he thinks? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jinef 2 Posted June 11, 2003 I think Bush is a robot. Paranoid android! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tex -USMC- 0 Posted June 11, 2003 @ June 11 2003,15:58)]You obviously haven't heard my opinions about Clinton. And no, you definitely wouldn't want me as President, as I have a nasty habit of telling the truth and standing on principle. Both those things have a tendency of making people angry and/or getting people killed. Isn`t that what the US press calls Bush? He`s telling the truth, standing on principle, fighting for his believes, telling what he thinks? Â Since when did the press get anything right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tex -USMC- 0 Posted June 11, 2003 I think Bush is a robot.Paranoid android! I think you ought to know that i'm feeling very depressed today Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
