Eu - federation or not federation?

[Guest]

You also have some very strong ties with one another as well.  Look at the Scandinavian countries.  

Yes, true they're all former Swedish colonies (Except for Denmark, but we hate each other anyway )

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Denoir-

Quote[/b] ] "You are right on one part, and I mentioned it too before: we have the big advantage of modern communications. I think that makes the difference and in the end will make the British see that the French don't bite and assure the French that the Germans have no plans (yet ) of rolling into Paris etc..

This could though go another way and serve to illustrate on the contrary how different we are from each other. If the european continent can (partially) reject 'americana' as a cohesive cultural movement (which it is not), dont you think its possible for individual european nations to also reject the great mass of what they may percieve as alien european cultures?

Denoir-

Quote[/b] ]"I must say however that I'm very surprised at the isolationist tendencies of the majority of British people. Why are France and Germany so pro-EU while Britain is so sceptical? "

You dont understand 'us' whilst we dont understand 'you' . Its perhaps not a very optimistic view but it seems quite realistic.

Also it is not only the British people. Further it is not surprising (at least from my perspective) . Many countries in Europe have had fundamentally different historical experiences and thus have correspondingly different

perspectives (perhaps something that the American colonies lacked at least to such an overwhelming extent).

Whilst the countries of the EU will thankfully not be going to war in the forseeable future and are in many ways moving together, many people in my view misinterpret this as evidence that european cultural differences have somehow become simply a matter of cheese ,music ,language and traditional dress etc (exportable products in fact). Culture also can embody value systems, beliefs ,ideas and ideals. Culture is entwined with ideology.There are of course

competing ideologies throughout europe but there are also definite national biases.

In fact the eurovision song contest might serve as a light example. In Britain it is regarded as a total joke and we get a guy called Terry Wogan to commentate and take the piss out of the whole thing each year. Some countries on the contrary seem to take it more seriously (within its role as an entertainment event of course). How can we ever get on with or hope to understand people who take the Eurovision song contest semi seriously?

[Bordoy 0]

i would rather get stronger ties with the USA then with France and Germany. The EU is bad as it is, any stronger ties will make it worst. Many things from Asylum Seekers to Law will be governed by the EU.

[Guest]

You dont understand 'us' whilst we dont understand 'you' . Its perhaps not a very optimistic view but it seems quite realistic.

It's always easier to understand an idealistic position ("Let's work together") than a negative one ("Fuck off, we won't let let you run OUR country"). I always had a hard time understanding isolationism and frankly I think it is rahter rude.

On the other hand one can wonder why the EU bothers with Britain and vice versa since the British population seems to be very sceptical.

Quote[/b] ]Also it is not only the British people. Further it is not surprising (at least from my perspective) . Many countries in Europe have had fundamentally different historical experiences and thus have correspondingly different

perspectives (perhaps something that the American colonies lacked at least to such an overwhelming extent).

Yes, but if you look at the globalization today those differences should not be a problem that can't be overcome. Hell, France starting a union with USA wouldn't be impossible and they are much more different.

Quote[/b] ]Culture also can embody value systems, beliefs ,ideas and ideals. Culture is entwined with ideology.There are of course

competing ideologies throughout europe but there are also definite national biases.

I think national biases is more the issue than ideological differences. If you look at the laws and constitutions across Europe you'll find that they are very similar.

Quote[/b] ]In fact the eurovision song contest might serve as a light example. In Britain it is regarded as a total joke and we get a guy called Terry Wogan to commentate and take the piss out of the whole thing each year. Some countries on the contrary seem to take it more seriously (within its role as an entertainment event of course). How can we ever get on with or hope to understand people who take the Eurovision song contest semi seriously?

Hehe, still whining about that nul points, ey? Don't bother. The Eurovision song contetst is a cultural embarrasment for Europe and nobody takes it seriously.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

I dont want to be ruled from germany, britain can do without EU interfearence, trade with em yes, but let them rule us nope, Britain is already treated like shit by the French, so no i dont want a federation, and the idea also of a EU Military force is a joke.

Stop reading The Sun and come back with a coherent argument ffs If you knew the slightest bit about the EU then you would know that Germany is the LAST country in the EU that currently has anything to say. With their budget deficit they ought to be happy not to get kicked out of the EU.

Furthermore, no single nation has a say in the EU, one vote is enough to stop a European resolution, which means that not one nation can "control" Europe. This is utter Murdoch-tabloid bollox that is spoonfed to idiots from Wales and Yorkshire

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Denoir-

Quote[/b] ]There is one big advantage that USA had: a common enemy. The English speaking colonist didn't like the British, the French didn't like the British and the Spanish didn't like the British.

The general consensus in most of europe seems to be that America is the enemy. Britain and some eastern countries may be the exception.

I personally think that there is a stupid reactionary (almost infantile) element to some of the arguments driving for a more closely integrated europe. Calling the future EU the 'United States of Europe' seems a little lame to me (i understand the name has been dropped now), explicitly setting out to oppose the USA (as some of the EU founders are doing) and create a counterweight etc does not greatly interest me or many British people as a reason to further integrate europe (especially if it means giving up certain long held national freedoms). At the same time i can see how it could be for the best in the end to have a euro-bloc and a more stable global balance of power.

Schoeler-

Quote[/b] ]You also have some very strong ties with one another as well.  Look at the Scandinavian countries.  Ties between Germany, Austria and Holland.  Eastern Europe is a mess in some places and very close knit in others.  Now if you could just shake those damned independent French!

That may be one problem with Britain as well. If anything we share traditional ties more with some of our former colonies and (as mentioned) America than particular Euro nations

(evidenced again by the Eurovision song contest where in voting, certain chummy neighboring countries often give each other the vote- no friends for Britain ).

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Ah, but you also have modern communications and a better recent history of cooperation.  True you are more diverse, but your differences culturally aren't really that great.

Our differences are great enough to have caused two millennia's worth of war and strife

There are at least 4 different religions in the EU, 5 if you want to count Turkey in it (who would ), there are many different political systems (federal vs. central system, system of complete mess (Greece+Italy)), and more importantly, each and every country has many centuries, in some cases MILLENNIA's worth of history and every country has had a major impact on world history. Furthermore, every single country has her own language (exception: Germany+Austria), some countries are made up of OTHER countries (United Kingdom) and if we look at history, every country has enough reason to go after every other country in Europe.

There is a slight difference in how an ex colony thinks of itself compared to how an ex world power thinks of itself.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

i would rather get stronger ties with the USA then with France and Germany. The EU is bad as it is, any stronger ties will make it worst. Many things from Asylum Seekers to Law will be governed by the EU.

If you had read the Independent from a few days ago, then you would know that Britain is far better off in terms of asylum seekers than some other countries in the EU.

[Guest]

In terms of asylum there seems to be a common ideology i.e "the Fortress Europa". Almost all European countries don't want immigrants from non-European countries.

I personally think it's completely wrong.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

I must say however that I'm very surprised at the isolationist tendencies of the majority of British people. Why are France and Germany so pro-EU while Britain is so sceptical?

Why? Because half the country reads the following rubbish:

www.sun.co.uk

www.dailystar.co.uk

www.dailymail.co.uk

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/

Are you still surprised that half the country is completely opposed to the EU when they read this rubbish day in day out?

[Schoeler 0]

Ah, but you also have modern communications and a better recent history of cooperation.  True you are more diverse, but your differences culturally aren't really that great.

Our differences are great enough to have caused two millennia's worth of war and strife

There are at least 4 different religions in the EU, 5 if you want to count Turkey in it (who would     ), there are many different political systems (federal vs. central system, system of complete mess (Greece+Italy)), and more importantly, each and every country has many centuries, in some cases MILLENNIA's worth of history and every country has had a major impact on world history. Furthermore, every single country has her own language (exception: Germany+Austria), some countries are made up of OTHER countries (United Kingdom) and if we look at history, every country has enough reason to go after every other country in Europe.

There is a slight difference in how an ex colony thinks of itself compared to how an ex world power thinks of itself.

True, but my point is that in recent history cultural differences are smoothing out. World War II burned up a lot of those differences and taught a serious lesson as to the cost of maintaining them.

My point is that the U.S. is more than a mere ex-colony. We are a nation forged from the ex-colonies of several world powers. Namely Britain, France and Spain.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

In terms of asylum there seems to be a common ideology i.e "the Fortress Europa". Almost all European countries don't want immigrants from non-European countries.

I personally think it's completely wrong.

Nooooooooooooo I can't believe you are making the same bloody mistake that 80% of all Brits are doing There is a BIG FUCKING difference between ASYLUM SEEKERS and IMMIGRANTS!!

Asylum seekers are fleeing war, they are given shelter for a limited time and are then sent back to their country once it has been pacified.

Immigrants come and want to stay, however. My take on non-EU immigrants: they should only be allowed to stay if they add a particular value to their host country that their host country is lacking.

[Mister 5 0]

Why? Because half the country reads the following rubbish:

www.sun.co.uk

www.dailystar.co.uk

www.dailymail.co.uk

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/

Are you still surprised that half the country is completely opposed to the EU when they read this rubbish day in day out?

What? Can the liberal propaganda not keep up with the conservative propaganda or something?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Ah, but you also have modern communications and a better recent history of cooperation.  True you are more diverse, but your differences culturally aren't really that great.

Our differences are great enough to have caused two millennia's worth of war and strife

There are at least 4 different religions in the EU, 5 if you want to count Turkey in it (who would     ), there are many different political systems (federal vs. central system, system of complete mess (Greece+Italy)), and more importantly, each and every country has many centuries, in some cases MILLENNIA's worth of history and every country has had a major impact on world history. Furthermore, every single country has her own language (exception: Germany+Austria), some countries are made up of OTHER countries (United Kingdom) and if we look at history, every country has enough reason to go after every other country in Europe.

There is a slight difference in how an ex colony thinks of itself compared to how an ex world power thinks of itself.

True, but my point is that in recent history cultural differences are smoothing out.  World War II burned up a lot of those differences and taught a serious lesson as to the cost of maintaining them.

My point is that the U.S. is more than a mere ex-colony.  We are a nation forged from the ex-colonies of several world powers.  Namely Britain, France and Spain.

No mate, go to Greece today and talk with villagers there. Everone will remember almost all atrocities committed by the Nazis in Greece. Everyone will remember the glorious defeat of the Italians. Italians and Spanish all clearly remember the war as well, history is very important in Europe and this is probably the biggest obstacle to a unified Europe of them all - the history of Europe.

[Guest]

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/

LMAO

Quote[/b] ]Let's have sex. Anouska begs for bonk with hunky housmate

British tabloids are certainly in a class of their own. I don't think any other country in the world has that.

[Guest]

Nooooooooooooo       I can't believe you are making the same bloody mistake that 80% of all Brits are doing       There is a BIG FUCKING difference between ASYLUM SEEKERS and IMMIGRANTS!!  

Of course there's a difference but the policy is the same: keep them out. It's a very clear tendency in Europe if you see the development during the last 20 years. People have become more xenophobic and the politics are reflecting it.

Edit: I think that Germany is the only notable exception.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Nooooooooooooo       I can't believe you are making the same bloody mistake that 80% of all Brits are doing       There is a BIG FUCKING difference between ASYLUM SEEKERS and IMMIGRANTS!!  

Of course there's a difference but the policy is the same: keep them out. It's a very clear tendency in Europe if you see the development during the last 20 years. People have become more xenophobic and the politics are reflecting it.

Edit: I think that Germany is the only notable exception.

I guess people are afraid of a non-white Europe.

That is one thing I admire Britain for, the EXCELLENT way Asians and others have been assimilated into British culture.

[Postduifje 0]

There are quite some similarities that everyone oversees. About the languages, the differents are not that big on one hand: think about Cypres and Malta. The Eastern European languages are quite similar, I noticed on my touriong last year (Poland - Czech - Slovakia - Slovenia and even Croatia which is not in (yet)). And within Europe there are the Dutch and the Belgian, and offcourse France and Belgium. Luxemburg is speaking French and German too.

The main roadblock is the detail. As every EU child nowadays is teached English, it just never will be that good if it ain't there first language (just look at my english). If you truly want to debate something, the choice of word is very important. All the translaters and headphones there are now in the European parlement, isn't perfect either. There was something on tv here recently about adapting the english language in the meetings, since now evereyone has the right to speak in their own language. A dutch member said it was absolutely no problem, and even now he often spoke english. But when he mention the expensive washing rooms in the parlement building, he was talking about the 'golden showers'

-Post

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

" http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/ "

"LMAO"

See? We dont understand each other. I dont really even understand us let alone you.

Ex-RoNiN-

Quote[/b] ]"Italians and Spanish all clearly remember the war as well, history is very important in Europe and this is probably the biggest obstacle to a unified Europe of them all - the history of Europe."

Exactly. The movement for greater european union requires that we forget the past or at least our previous differences. But many people in europe believe that their past defines who they are in the present. To forget their past (including national) or break links with it would according to their belief system be to deny who they are now. People in many countries instinctively look to the past for a sense of their national identity. This is truer in some countries than others but overall this tendancy must necessarily be broken down in europe (to some extent) in order for the 'progressive' agenda to be advanced.

[raedor 8]

i dont think that u do need one language if EU would be one state (but how about greek... ). which language do u want to choose? english? maybe it's very simple (that doesnt mean that my english is good, but it is much easier to learn than french), but u cant say from on second to the other "now everybody has to speak english". in germany everyone speaks german . but im sure that my grandma (from bavaria) wont understand my friends in the north of germany (if she ever will be there...).

i think the main problem isnt the language but the xenophobic attitude of people in EVERY EU nation. if the british national team plays football (for the americans: soccer) against the german one, read the "sun" and the "bild"! that's the matter why EU cant be one nation yet.

but lets see, maybe there are coming better times...

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Postduifje- "A dutch member said it was absolutely no problem, and even now he often spoke english. But when he mention the expensive washing rooms in the parlement building, he was talking about the 'golden showers'"

Hehe   . Communication is a real problem that its possible to overlook.

Although its true that there are similarities between languages and common roots so that some words might be shared i cant see how this would make a good practical basis for making yourself understood across languages. It is especially a problem for the more isolated (or isolationist) countries such as Britain ,and France to some extent. Happily these two countries have often proved able to compel others to converse with them in their native languages through stubbornness or laziness.

-----------------------------

I voted in the poll that the EU remain a loose association of nations but in the long term i am not necessarily averse to a more federal EU. The question is of method and timing. So in the long term i would ideally vote federal but in the short term and relating to the current drafted constitution i would vote to remain a loose association.

[raedor 8]

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/

LMAO

Quote[/b] ]Let's have sex. Anouska begs for bonk with hunky housmate

British tabloids are certainly in a class of their own. I don't think any other country in the world has that.

dont be too sure in this point, denoir! have u ever been in germany and read the bild? i think it's mostly the same... the only difference is that german tabloids (german quality papers are too one-sided, sometimes) are not that biased (politics!).

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/

LMAO

Quote[/b] ]Let's have sex. Anouska begs for bonk with hunky housmate

British tabloids are certainly in a class of their own. I don't think any other country in the world has that.

dont be too sure in this point, denoir! have u ever been in germany and read the bild? i think it's mostly the same... the only difference is that german tabloids (german quality papers are too one-sided, sometimes) are not that biased (politics!).

The Bild is quite good compared to some British tabloids

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

The literary tabloid 'culture' in Britain is quite crazy and out of control. Its actually quite amusing to buy a Tabloid now and then. Just dont expect to get any actual news of course.

The whole point about the British Tabloids is how limitlessly biased they are in everything. Including politics.

Without having command of the German language one can see some similarities and some differences in the websites

http://www.thesun.co.uk/

"2 million jobs in peril- EU to hijack our economy if Blair signs new treaty"

"The end of our nation-

BRITAIN will be ruled by Brussels if PM agrees to European constitution "

http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO

"9 wichtige Fragen zum Euro-Hoch "

an apparently very positive article about the rise and rise of the Euro. Why is it so high? What positive effects will it have for us?

Both seem very much to be biased and opinionated. The Sun seems very emotional and emotive and the Bild seems perhaps slightly more cold and detached.

[Jamesia 0]

i like british tabloids.

the sun, news of the world. great!