Genesis 0 Posted March 30, 2003 The info about invulnerability of Western MBT's is 10 years old, and therefore history. There are more capable AT-missile systems developed after Gulf War 1, for example AT-14 "Kornet", penetration ~1100-1200mm Rolled Homogenous Armor. Enough for every existing MBT. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
interstat 0 Posted March 30, 2003 Another one down: U.S. helicopter crashes in Iraq WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Marine helicopter has crashed in southern Iraq, the Pentagon has said. A Pentagon spokeswoman said on Sunday she could not say if anyone was killed or injured. "We do confirm that there was a crash," she said without providing other details, such as the exact location of the incident or the possible cause." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tydium 0 Posted March 30, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I thought the RPG-7 would be able to take out a Warrior tank? <span id='postcolor'> Yes it is. There are different kind of ammunition available to RPG-7, but older rounds can penetrate ~ 330 mm and newer ones ~ 600 mm. Should be more than enough for IFVs like Warrior and Bradley. Source: World equipment quide (PDF, 2.8 MB) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloney 0 Posted March 30, 2003 Why are we being so naive? Its a WAR, what do you expect? That the Iraqis would just sit by and not shoot at tanks which are honkin' big targets. I'd be more worried about the crew. IMO, if the tank gets destroyed by a direct AT hit, but the crew has enough time to get out and save their own lives, then its worth the cost of loosing a tank. Equipment is much easier to replace than lives. The crew members just need to get let them selves settle after what just happened for a few days, get them into another tank and you're good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrMilli 0 Posted March 30, 2003 A report more reliable than the Mirror (or "We hate everything the government does, anywhere, anytime") :)http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2899717.stm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
munger 25 Posted March 30, 2003 I was under the impression that only Challengers were used. I think it was an article on Sky News that said this. It also said that each tank sustained quite a few hits and that when they got back the crew found one inch dents in lots of places on the vehicles. Who knows whether this is true or not? I doubt any RPG-7 round could dent a Challenger 2 from the front, but maybe the back sides and back where the armour is thinnest could take damage. It actually sounds like a very risky operation if it was just tanks - what if one of them had lost a track and been immobilised? How would the crew have escaped? Interesting to speculate anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IsthatyouJohnWayne 0 Posted March 30, 2003 I understand there were communications masts and equipment targetted as well as the statue. The fact is that if the Iraqis have AT-14s or other advanced AT systems in Basra then they are likely to target them at Challengers or Warriors at some point, its just a question of time. So missions have to continue. I doubt theyll have a great number in Basra anyway. Im more concerned about the Royal Marines and other infantry units using soft skinned vehicles. Theyre much more vulnerable to MGs, RPGs etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Col. Kurtz 0 Posted March 30, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (interstat @ Mar. 31 2003,08:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Another one down: U.S. helicopter crashes in Iraq WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Marine helicopter has crashed in southern Iraq, the Pentagon has said. A Pentagon spokeswoman said on Sunday she could not say if anyone was killed or injured. "We do confirm that there was a crash," she said without providing other details, such as the exact location of the incident or the possible cause."<span id='postcolor'> I heard on the radio that all 3 crew were killed, but no proof of that yet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Badgerboy 0 Posted March 30, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dunkirk ring a bell? Anyone with a lick of sense ouwld have seen that was one of the worst places to stage a raidd, but it went ahead anyways. Or Market Garden. Military planners are not all knowing and all seeing, and sometimes you need to take risks to acheive a goal. <span id='postcolor'> Surely you mean Dieppe? Dunkirk was the evacuation of the BEF from Europe, and Dieppe was the fuckup that ended up butchering hundreds of Canadians. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Warin 0 Posted March 30, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Mar. 31 2003,00:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dunkirk ring a bell? Anyone with a lick of sense ouwld have seen that was one of the worst places to stage a raidd, but it went ahead anyways. Â Or Market Garden. Â Military planners are not all knowing and all seeing, and sometimes you need to take risks to acheive a goal. <span id='postcolor'> Surely you mean Dieppe? Dunkirk was the evacuation of the BEF from Europe, and Dieppe was the fuckup that ended up butchering hundreds of Canadians.<span id='postcolor'> Yeah yeah ywah. I meant Dieppe. It's what I get for posting before coffee consumption in the AM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tracy_t 0 Posted March 30, 2003 Munger, according to the BBC web page (link above), Warriors were used as well as Challengers. I guess if the Iraqis were using RPG-7's to attack the armour, they must've been firing the old type of ammo OR they were crap shots. Anyway, one things for sure - I certainly wouldn't want to be driving a tank into Basra. Fuck that! Let's hope the UK troops return home in one piece, although *cough* at the moment it's not the Iraqis who are killing them Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schoeler 0 Posted March 30, 2003 It seems those Kornets CAN take out a modern MBT, however the blowout panels on the M1A1's saved the life of the crews. Denoir, the article you posted seems reasonably accurate, but i'd like to point out that the food riot was not at a coalition food distribution point, but at a site where the Kuwaiti Red Crescent was distributing food with only a few British soldiers as escorts. Interestingly enough, it was all the young, physically fit military age men who took the food away from the children and the elderly. I wonder if we are feeding Iraqi troops? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted March 31, 2003 Four men claiming to be Iraqi army deserters from Baghdad hold a press conference in the northern Kurd-controlled city of Sulimainiya on, March 30, 2003. The men say they have been leading an underground resistance group since 1991 aimed at sowing dissent against Saddam Hussein. Their identities and stories could not be independently verified. REUTERS/Nikola Solic Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schoeler 0 Posted March 31, 2003 It would be nice if they could target key leaders for assasination, and hopefully end the war without an invasion of Baghdad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 31, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ Mar. 31 2003,01:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Interestingly enough, it was all the young, physically fit military age men who took the food away from the children and the elderly. Â I wonder if we are feeding Iraqi troops?<span id='postcolor'> The UN and Red Cross/Crescent criticized the military food distribution system saying exactly that. The Iraqi military apparently grabs the food later distributing them to the civilians, taking credit for it (and of course feeding their own troops). Food does not seem like the major problem in Iraq. Water on the other hand is, especially when water distribution plants get destroyed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 31, 2003 Rifts in the coalition? I've heard a lot of criticism on BBC towards US forces and military planners lately.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted March 31, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 31 2003,09:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Rifts in the coalition?<span id='postcolor'> From your headline, I thought that Buckingham Palace had made the comments. I would love to hear these same unfortunate soldier's opinions of the Challenger tank crew who killed another. Wonder if they would call them fox hunters or something on a UK parallel with cowboys. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've heard a lot of criticism on BBC towards US forces and military planners lately..<span id='postcolor'> Interesting you should mention the BBC (and the chemical plant that isn't). See The Fog of Media, by Bret Stephens (JPost subscribers only). The BBC's slanted reporting is mentioned towards the end of the article. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 31, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 31 2003,08:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">See The Fog of Media, by Bret Stephens (JPost subscribers only). The BBC's slanted reporting is mentioned towards the end of the article.<span id='postcolor'> Yes, we all know that the Jerusalem Post is the shining beacon of objectivity and operates without bias. lol My point was however that BBC is the state television and it usually represents the opinion of the British people pretty well. I've seen a clear development these days against the Americans, but still supportive of the British troops. This seems to be a one way street. American media are basically just saying good things about the Brits, certainly not blaming them for the current developments. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted March 31, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 31 2003,09:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, we all know that the Jerusalem Post is the shining beacon of objectivity and operates without bias. lol<span id='postcolor'> I see you've stopped using intelligence, rationalization and logic as a method of rebuttal. Just deligitimize an entire country, Denoir? Go ahead. I know exactly where that's coming from. Good to know you're not above that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 31, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 31 2003,09:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 31 2003,09:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, we all know that the Jerusalem Post is the shining beacon of objectivity and operates without bias. lol<span id='postcolor'> I see you've stopped using intelligence, rationalization and logic as a method of rebuttal. Just deligitimize an entire country, Denoir? Go ahead. I know exactly where that's coming from. Good to know you're not above that.<span id='postcolor'> So the Jerusalem Post is now a country? It would seem to me that you are the one deligitimizing an entire country. I personally put about as much faith in JP as I do in Al-Jazeera. Not much that is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted March 31, 2003 7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 31 2003,107)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I personally put about as much faith in JP as I do in Al-Jazeera. Not much that is.<span id='postcolor'> Well whoopy for you! Still can't rebut the article, so you're resorting to insults? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 31, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 31 2003,09:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well whoopy for you! Still can't rebut the article, so you're resorting to insults?<span id='postcolor'> Sorry for not believing in its interpretation that everything is anti-semitism. Get a grip on reality, I say. Since this is venturing into personal attacks and politics, I'll post this instead: U.S. Army Battles in Streets of Hindiyah Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tovarish 0 Posted March 31, 2003 Unidentified senior Pentagon planners say Rummsfeld screwed up by sharply decreasing number of ground toops (guess you have to register) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted March 31, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Mar. 31 2003,10:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unidentified senior Pentagon planners say Rummsfeld screwed up by sharply decreasing number of ground toops<span id='postcolor'> Where have you been? That's 2 day old news. Similar report yesterday: http://www.reuters.com/newsArt....2473767 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 31, 2003 Peter Arnett: U.S. war plan has 'failed' as a counterpoint: History or Hysteria? Edit: New Fisk report from Baghdad - worth to read. Covers the bombings, suicide bombers, Iraqi propaganda etc.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
