Toughest combat unit

[IceFire 0]

Ok, I saw a thread below about someone who was trying to decide whether to join the Navy or Army.

This leads me to some other questions that I am curious about, who has the toughest/well trained combat unit in the U.S. military.

I know the Marines are tough, but are they really that much tougher/well trained than for example Army infantry? What about Army Special Forces?

Can an Army grunt later join the Marines/vice verca? What about in the Navy?

[Harnu 0]

The Marines are the toughest standard branch.  Of the special units, I'd say SEALS would beat out the Ranger units.  I'm not sure if the Marines has their own Special Ops unit.  If they do I don/'t know the name of it.  But Probably not, thenagain there was some dark stuff during NAM that maybe we had more well trained marines to do dirty work.

But the MEU's serve as an all purpose force. And since most are SOC (Special Operations Capable) i'd assume they that are.

[red oct 2]

i think Rangers are the toughest. they are the brute force of the US army. and maybe have the most challaging training. they also have very good survivle abilities.

[IceFire 0]

Yeah, I hear alot about Marines being a tough force.

What about the Army, they have any tough units other than Rangers or Special Forces?

Now that I think about it, what IS the Army used/known for?

Marines are the combat people. So what does the Army do?

[red oct 2]

i think the army uses the heavy weapons while the marines are more of fast mobile attack force. im not totally sure.

[-TU--33ker 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Mar. 14 2003,23:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i think the army uses the heavy weapons while the marines are more of fast mobile attack force. im not totally sure.<span id='postcolor'>

in my eyes the marines are like the army. they have artillery, tanks, and choppers. but they are even more. they have their own planes and they're used in amphibious operations. so what's the army good for??

[NavyEEL 0]

the basic Marine definitely has the upper hand when it comes to being well-trained. as far as basic (non-specialized) training goes, i'd say the Marines are the best. every Marine knows how to run, shoot, and swim, and in combat, these are very valuable assets.

as for what the Army does... the Army is the premier ground fighting force. they do the "ground-pounding" so to speak. the majority of US Special Operations Forces are part of the Army. The Army has Rangers, Special Forces (aka Green Berets), the 160th SOAR, and the 1st SFOD Delta (aka Delta Force).

as for the Navy and Air Force, the Navy has Navy Sea, Air, and Land (SEAL) Teams. the Air Force has Pararescue Jumpers as well as various special operations aviation units.

as far as what each unit does... Army Rangers are trained to "kill people and blow stuff up". plain and simple. Rangers are the gung-ho, fearless, high testosterone-level, super-Hooah Army soldiers. Army Special Forces (Green Berets) are trained to basically go into a foreign country and build up relations with its resistance fighters. they are well-educated and well-trained, and must be able to operate on their own for weeks and months at a time. the 160th SOAR (Special Operations Aviation Regiment) is the Army's special ops helicopter unit. they are tasked with providing helicopter support and transport for various US special operations units. their aircraft include MH-47 Chinooks, numerous variations of MH-60 Blackhawks, and AH/MH-6 Little Birds. 1st SFOD Delta, commonly referred to as "Delta Force," is the Army's premier counter-terrorist and hostage rescue unit. Delta operators are all quick, agile, intelligent, and expert marksmen. Air Force Pararescue Jumpers are mainly combat rescuers. they often go into enemy territory alone to recover downed pilots or other missing personnel. Air Force special operations aviation units include aircraft such as the MH-53 Pave Low, the MH-130, and the AC-130. Navy SEALs are the Navy's covert unit. trained to operate on "Sea, Air, or Land", they specialize in unconventional warfare, primarily in maritime environments, and are well-known for their ability to work completely undetected.

Well, this basically sums up US Special Operations Forces. if i've left anything out, please let me know

[IceFire 0]

Yeah, is it true that soldiers and Marines can switch beteen the Army and Marines?

I heard that once, I didn't think that was realistic.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Mar. 14 2003,23:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yeah, is it true that soldiers and Marines can switch beteen the Army and Marines?

I heard that once, I didn't think that was realistic.<span id='postcolor'>

The only instance I know of where a soldier 'switches' between services is occasionally when top-ranked service academy cadets request a transfer to their branch of choice (i.e. a West Pointer transferring to Annapolis, or vice-versa).

That being said, there is an enormous amount of crosstraining that goes on. I know a recon marine who has gone through Ranger and Airborne school, for example.

[edc 0]

The best-trained is probably Delta.

[IceFire 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (edc @ Mar. 14 2003,23:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The best-trained is probably Delta.<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah yeah, when I am talking about "who is the toughest" and best trained, ofcourse Special Forces are the "best".

I mean units that are NOT special forces. Just regular combat units.

Like Marines MEU, or Army Paracommandos etc. I dunno.

[IceFire 0]

Ok, along the lines of regular infantry who is tougher, or has better training?

Army, or Marines?

I always hear about Marines having much more intensity than Army grunts.

In my mind it seems that compared to Marines, Army soldiers are kindof not so well trained. Kindof more or less just cannon fodder.

[Jinef 2]

Okay without saying anything nasty i am going to say the Marine Recon guys, they are the best of the Marines who are a highly capable bunch of lads. The MFR guys also still have their feet on the ground (unlike SFOD) but are given a good deal of responsibility as well (unlike the Rangers who are told waht to do every step of the way)

The Delta guys come second due to their fascination with playing with very expensive toys instead of actually doing the mission (damn i can't restrain myself).

E6Hotel will probably like this post considering i'm complemeting the Marines over the Army.

[PiNs_Da_Smoka 0]

Just to clear up, you can switch branches. My cousin was in the Army for about 6 years, and is still in there. But he recently requested to be transferred to the Air Force, and qualified for para-rescue or Spec Ops. And one of my Army recruiters used to be in the Marines before he joined the Army. So, it is possible to change branches. And in most cases, i believe, you can even keep your rank from the previous branch.

[IceFire 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PiNs_Da_Smoka @ Mar. 15 2003,02:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just to clear up, you can switch branches. My cousin was in the Army for about 6 years, and is still in there. But he recently requested to be transferred to the Air Force, and qualified for para-rescue or Spec Ops. And one of my Army recruiters used to be in the Marines before he joined the Army. So, it is possible to change branches. And in most cases, i believe, you can even keep your rank from the previous branch.<span id='postcolor'>

Pins, if you change branches, then do you have to do the new branches "Basic training" even though you have already prior service?

It seems strange to me that you would see (for example) a 30 year old Navy SEAL going to Parris Island to do basic training with a bunch of 19-21 year olds when changing services to become a Marine.

[FSPilot 0]

Air Force!!!

...

Probably the SEALs, then the rangers, then the marines.

[PiNs_Da_Smoka 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Mar. 14 2003,20:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PiNs_Da_Smoka @ Mar. 15 2003,02:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just to clear up, you can switch branches. My cousin was in the Army for about 6 years, and is still in there. But he recently requested to be transferred to the Air Force, and qualified for para-rescue or Spec Ops. And one of my Army recruiters used to be in the Marines before he joined the Army. So, it is possible to change branches. And in most cases, i believe, you can even keep your rank from the previous branch.<span id='postcolor'>

Pins, if you change branches, then do you have to do the new branches "Basic training" even though you have already prior service?

It seems strange to me that you would see (for example) a 30 year old Navy SEAL going to Parris Island to do basic training with a bunch of 19-21 year olds when changing services to become a Marine.<span id='postcolor'>

Honestly, i'm not entirely sure if they have to go through basic again. My cousin is switching to the Air Force, and gets to keep his rank, but he had to retake the ASVAB test to qualify. But he didn't say anything about having to go to basic again. I'll give him a call and ask him to get a definate answer.

[second_draw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Army Special Forces (Green Berets) are trained to basically go into a foreign country and build up relations with its resistance fighters<span id='postcolor'>

The british SAS has to do this plus the job which you mentioned for delta (counter-terrorism). People actually die on the selection process   . Extending this topic beyond america, I would say they are the best  

[Jinef 2]

They are not meant to die on the selection process though and they shouldn't, it's just hard to keep track of 100 people running their own routes over 30 miles of Welsh (:crazy:) terrain in practically zero visiblity.

The SAS selection process is not just tough it's extensive, the jungle warfare training they do is second to none and has been finely tuned from experiences in malaya and other jungle regions. Their desert training in North Africa and Oman is also very extensive and is neccesary for them to operate in regions like the middle east where conditions are arid and generally unfriendly.

I would say Delta is the closest to the SAS as they cross train thoroughly (read Andy Macnab NF books for the SAS's 'experiences' with Delta!.

MFR is still the toughest in my opinion though.

[Cloney 0]

Army Rangers.

HOOAH!

[Schoeler 0]

The Marine Corps is the only branch in the U.S. service that you have to repeat bootcamp if you transfer in.  This is because Marine Corps bootcamp is indeed the toughest and the Marines not only physically condition their recruits but fully indoctrinate them with a special mentality.  The saying goes, "Once a Marine, always a Marine," and its true.  A side by side comparison of Marine and Army regular units would defintely come out with the Marines as tougher mentally and physically.  Regular Marines are just slightly less trained then Army special units like airborne and rangers.  These Army units are better trained because they are jump qualified, but the combat training is on par with the Marines combat training.  Marine Corps bootcamp is 12 weeks long with I believe an additional 8 weeks of combat training afterwards.  All other services have an 8 week bootcamp.  The Marine Corps mission differs greatly from that of the regular Army.  They are a fast insertion, light attack force capable of amphibious or airmobile assault.  Because of their rapid response ability, esprit de corps, and sterling reputation, the Marines are often the first units deployed to combat, and the last to leave.  And this is saying a lot coming from an ex-sailor.  If I had to go into actual combat, I would want it to be with the Marines.

Now, as far as special forces go, its the Navy SEALs all the way.  The name says it all, Sea Air and Land.  They do it all.  The SEALs modelled a lot of their training after the British SAS, so most of it is identical.  They also cross-train with the SAS regularly.  SEALs are the ultimate covert operators.  They can deploy from a submerged submarine, miles off of an enemy coastline, and swim in submerged all the way to the beach at night.  They get Army airborne qualified and I believe they get Ranger qualified as well.  They also do HALO insertions over land and water.  They are special weapons qualified, explosives qualified, you name it, they do it.

[Harnu 0]

While the Marine's aren't always "qualified" in things like explosives and airborne stuff.  If you give a Marine a parachute or a stick of C4, he'll do what he has to with it  

[Aaron Kane 0]

And according to Denoir, the US Marines are excellent tree climbers

*hopes he posts the pic again*

[black__bird 0]

they are all good in specific areas....

US Army

Rangers- Quick assualt force

Green Berets- Diplomacy to start resistance movements

SOFD-D- MOUT and CQB

USN

SEALs- Maritime Ops

SBUs- CALOW also insertion/extraction of SEALs

USMC

Force Recon- Scouts, long range silent patroling, laser designation(not officially Special Ops because they arent under the command of JSOC but they really are SpecOps cause of what they do)

MEU SOC- various functions

USAF

Para-rescue- rescue of downed aviators, CSAR, deployed usually along side other special warfare units as their medical personnel that also engage in combat

CCTs- Take and clear airfields and LZs then act as air traffic controllers to bring in supplies and more troops, very highly trained and a touch crazy.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ Mar. 15 2003,20:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The SEALs modelled a lot of their training after the British SAS, so most of it is identical.  They also cross-train with the SAS regularly.

....They can deploy from a submerged submarine, miles off of an enemy coastline, and swim in submerged all the way to the beach at night.<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly the same with the norwegian "marinejegerkompani" (Denoir would translate this into navy ranger or something - but I don't like the term "ranger" - so I disagree    )

Many (also in this forum) are too occupied in discussing who's best, toughest and so on. I'm quite sure many special forces are very good in what they specialise in, but there are so many factors that seriously can reduce the capabilities of such special units. It's not uncommon during Nato-excercises here in Norway that ordinary military units "spank" both SAS and SEALS when they are over here. The crucial factor is the winter climate of coastal Norway and it should not be underestimated. Even though the SAS units train in Norway every year - they never fully master it .

The local climate conditions and the topographie can cause immense problems for any special unit if it's not their usual "habitat".

I'm sure most special unit would face serious trouble when fighting in the german, french or italian alpine environments even if they had conducted special courses with that in mind.

Even ordinary units could be hell to fight under such conditions.

Edit:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">....They can deploy from a submerged submarine<span id='postcolor'>

A few years ago a marinejeger-recruit died when practicing this. It's very very dangerous!