Enemy uniforms and stolen radios (07.10.2022 dev report)

[Akibuua-FIN- 15]

Well, since you developers asked for opinions regarding wearing enemy uniforms or using enemy radios in the last dev report, (07.10.2022), here are my two cents worth.

 

First an admission. I do not own reforger, yet, but I've played the game series ever since the Operation Flashpoint demo back in 2001, so I think I'm entitled.

 

Let's talk about enemy uniforms first.

First questions that popped into my mind were:
How long should it take to change into an enemy uniform?

Should all uniforms fit every player, are they really one size fits all?

 

And the radios.

Since most wars (or at least the one you depicting) are fought with people from different countries speaking different languages should they understand each other?

If a member of your team dies do you leave the body where it is without taking his weapon and other gear with you or at least make sure enemy can't use it. Of course, if a whole team dies the enemy has the ability scavenge their equipment.

And lastly, should all of the dead soldiers gear still be usable or could bullets or explosions break stuff?

 

And concerning both categories, how differently would all that be handled between human players and ai units?

So, a lot of questions, and I do not claim to have a lot of answers, and the technological challenges will be immense, but here are some ideas what I think should be possible and doable.

 

- When inspecting a fallen soldier, it should take time even to make an inventory of what he had, since you really need to go through his uniform, vest pockets and backpack. I'd say 10 seconds minimum and searching enemies should take longer than friendlies. If you are striving for realism maybe even a minute for fully loaded man. And then add the time that it takes moving stuff to your own inventory. You could have a choice to check only what you need, like only check combat vest if you need ammo. Maybe add an option that when you do the checking, you will automatically take the stuff out of his pockets and put it around the body on the ground, so it is apparent that someone has checked that man already.

(Even reloading your own weapon from your own inventory should take a different amount of time depending on your stance and the place from where you take the next magazine, but this really should have its own topic in the forum)

 

- When wearing enemy uniform, considering the previous owner of the uniform is most likely dead there should be bullet holes or other damage or blood stains readily visible in the uniform indicating stolen uniform and thus allowing people (and AI) to notice the deception at certain distances. (Compare that to Arma 3 where if you steal an enemy vehicle the AI on both sides automatically knows who is driving.)

 

- Equipment should break if hit by a bullet (or a knife or rock or when driven over by vehicle etc.). Or you could at least disable the radios from your fallen comrades so they can't be misused.

 

- Enemies should not understand each other by default. It should be made in a way that when you hear an enemy talking (either locally or in a radio) you would not hear what is being said but just noise. I'm thinking along the lines of Peanuts cartoons where when adults are talking you hear a trombone sound. So, you know enemy is talking, you can locate the direction and guess distance, but not understand what is been said. (Search "Charlie Brown teacher talking" in youtube if you didn't understand)

 

- Talking to a radio is still talking so it is heard locally too. And unless you are listening to the radio through an earpiece a receiving radio produces local sound too. I know that creates a lot of sound sources, but that is what happens in reality. And the operator's death does not turn off the radio, the radio has to be destroyed or turned off independently. (Do the radios have individual volume controls for their speakers?)

 

- If the game has a global voice chat function that should not follow the same rules. So, no local sound and understandable for all.

 

I could go on forever but let's try to keep this as simple as possible.

[Blackheart_Six 283]

I too saw this in the dev report requesting feedback but wasn't sure where to go with it. Feedback site maybe. IDK. 

 

Any who...

 

In regard to radio communications, one possible solution is to implement a Signal Operating Instructions (SOI/CEOI). And in particular, an "Authentication Table". 

 

A random table of letters for each side and issued like the map item. This is a modify Authentication table example.

 

For this example, the sender would request the receiver to authenticate BRAVO DELTA. The receiver would then send back QUEBEC. REDFOR could issue BLUFOR to move to an ambush, but BLUFOR would request REDFOR to authenticate orders, and REDFOR wouldn't be able to. Of course, if BLUFOR fails to request an authentication, they deserve to be ambushed. 

 

        ABC   DEF 

A     FIU     VMD

B     WET   QOD

C     PSD    MDF

D     VMH   UEL

E     EVC     QIH

F     MWP   PBN

 

It is a very simple system to check that the user is on your side.

 

Another solution is to frequency hop. Let's say REDFOR steals a BLUFOR radio. And it is set to 38.75 Mhz. In 15 minutes, all BLUFOR radios hop to a new frequency of 56.14 Mhz, but the REDFOR unit stays on the same frequency and doesn't hop since he is REDFOR.  This would allow some dirty play, but for limited time. It would be hard to find the new frequency. 

 

Additionally, as part of the SOI, you can establish frequency tables, call signs, and a whole host of radio communication protocols. With the advent of SINCGARS radios, paper SOI's went away, and the electronic SOI got filled into the radio. 

 

How do you keep the REDFOR from stealing the BLUFOR SOI? Thats for you devs to figure out. 

 

That's my story, and I am sticking to it.... 

 

[drdetroit 77]

On 10/8/2022 at 5:50 PM, Blackheart_Six said:

 

        ABC   DEF 

A     FIU     VMD

B     WET   QOD

C     PSD    MDF

D     VMH   UEL

E     EVC     QIH

F     MWP   PBN

 

 

 

 

Interesting, thanks for the post!  How's the table you provided work?

 

Thanks!

 

[Blackheart_Six 283]

Requester: Reads down the left column and picks a random letter. IE "D" or Delta. Then reads across the top row, and picks a random letter. IE "F" or Foxtrot.

 

The receiver has the same table. Finds the 2 letters, and reads the table. He replies "L" or Lima.

 

The radio transmission would be...

Alpha one one, this is Alpha one zero, authenticate Delta Foxtrot, over. 

Alpha one zero, this is Alpha one one, I authenticate Lima, out.

 

The column, and top row would be the complete alphabet, with filled table.

 

[welcome to hell 23]

How about just server side settings to start with, especially for conflict:

 - Equip Non-Faction Uniforms (ON / OFF)
 - Equip Non-Faction Radios (ON / OFF)
 - Non Faction Local VOIP (ON / OFF)

[Akibuua-FIN- 15]

Just a reminder to all. I started this thread because the developers asked for feedback in their dev report. Specifically, this one https://reforger.armaplatform.com/news/dev-report-13 in the part titled operations.

 

So, I would assume that they already know about server side settings if they are actually possible, and the text actually does imply that.

 

But ok, I guess my first post rambled on too much, so the point didn't come across, so let's try to summarize.

 

1. The use of enemy uniforms as camouflage and gaining unfair advantage. And committing a warcrime.

Keep the option in the game, but in a way that the camouflage is not perfect.
Options.
- Wearing enemy uniform makes the uniform imperfect when viewed close up. Blood stains, holes, tears, burn marks or clearly wrong size.
- Kills achieved while wearing enemy uniform don't add to the score (if that sort of scoring is used)
 and so on ...

 

2. The use of enemy radios or just finding enemy frequency on your own radio and listening in on the enemy.
Not illegal and used in larger scale in warfare all the time, and besides radio waves are radio waves, anyone can use them. And encrypted radios (small personal ones) were NOT a common thing during cold war era.

 

BUT, in tactical communication as a foot soldier one does not usually understand the enemy language anyway, so voice communication is somewhat secret anyhow.
The solution.
The game "encrypts" all local and radio voices from the enemy.
When bluefor talks other bluefor and their allied units hear what is said both in local and over the radio, the opfor listener hears indistinguishable noice and vice versa to simulate the enemy speaking in a different language.

If needed or wanted there could be a taunt option in which you would make your speech understandable to the enemy instead of your own side to simulate heckling or trying to deceive the enemy in their language, but you still would not be able to understand them when they talk in their "native tongue".

Two final observations.

If you want to use the suggested radio authentication chart, fine that can be done, but that is more of an advanced level of radio communications and requires radio discipline that is rare in games. And that only makes sure that the two parties talking are on the same side. It does not prevent anyone else from listening in.

 

For a quick reference on unit identification, let's remember how it was done in real life in WWII Normandy by allied units when identifying unknown contacts. It was a simple voice query (challenge: Flash. answer: Thunder) or the use of clicker (challenge: click-clik answer: click-click-click). So set up that type of two-word challenge with a few semi-random word-pairs for each side. Or/and add the clicker device.

 

And lastly. This is directed at the developers. It was over three weeks ago when you asked for feedback without telling where to send the said feedback. I haven't seen any other feedback on the matter, maybe it is on some social media site that I have no intention to join. But not acknowledging any and all feedback that you do receive, when you don't specify the preferred channel, gives the impression that you don't actually want or care about the feedback.

[Lone Penguin 15]

I'm using this thread to make a request to the devs about an aspect of the radio.

 

Can you do something about the permanent broadcast of the platoon channel ? I understand the logic behind it, but it's super annoying when other players use it as a casual conversation channel. This should be an emergency only or important intel only channel. Because of all the noise, I always end up switching off my radio altogether to play in silence but then I can't transmit or receive on my group channel anymore.

 

My request is to have the possibility to turn off the platoon channel without disabling the entire radio, so I can still talk with my direct teammates in peace and silence when we need it. (Or if you have another solution of course).

 

Thanks !

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

On 10/31/2022 at 12:11 PM, Akibuua-FIN- said:

Just a reminder to all. I started this thread because the developers asked for feedback in their dev report. Specifically, this one https://reforger.armaplatform.com/news/dev-report-13 in the part titled operations.

 

So, I would assume that they already know about server side settings if they are actually possible, and the text actually does imply that.

 

But ok, I guess my first post rambled on too much, so the point didn't come across, so let's try to summarize.

 

1. The use of enemy uniforms as camouflage and gaining unfair advantage. And committing a warcrime.

Keep the option in the game, but in a way that the camouflage is not perfect.
Options.
- Wearing enemy uniform makes the uniform imperfect when viewed close up. Blood stains, holes, tears, burn marks or clearly wrong size.
- Kills achieved while wearing enemy uniform don't add to the score (if that sort of scoring is used)
 and so on ...

 

2. The use of enemy radios or just finding enemy frequency on your own radio and listening in on the enemy.
Not illegal and used in larger scale in warfare all the time, and besides radio waves are radio waves, anyone can use them. And encrypted radios (small personal ones) were NOT a common thing during cold war era.

 

BUT, in tactical communication as a foot soldier one does not usually understand the enemy language anyway, so voice communication is somewhat secret anyhow.
The solution.
The game "encrypts" all local and radio voices from the enemy.
When bluefor talks other bluefor and their allied units hear what is said both in local and over the radio, the opfor listener hears indistinguishable noice and vice versa to simulate the enemy speaking in a different language.

If needed or wanted there could be a taunt option in which you would make your speech understandable to the enemy instead of your own side to simulate heckling or trying to deceive the enemy in their language, but you still would not be able to understand them when they talk in their "native tongue".

Two final observations.

If you want to use the suggested radio authentication chart, fine that can be done, but that is more of an advanced level of radio communications and requires radio discipline that is rare in games. And that only makes sure that the two parties talking are on the same side. It does not prevent anyone else from listening in.

 

For a quick reference on unit identification, let's remember how it was done in real life in WWII Normandy by allied units when identifying unknown contacts. It was a simple voice query (challenge: Flash. answer: Thunder) or the use of clicker (challenge: click-clik answer: click-click-click). So set up that type of two-word challenge with a few semi-random word-pairs for each side. Or/and add the clicker device.

 

And lastly. This is directed at the developers. It was over three weeks ago when you asked for feedback without telling where to send the said feedback. I haven't seen any other feedback on the matter, maybe it is on some social media site that I have no intention to join. But not acknowledging any and all feedback that you do receive, when you don't specify the preferred channel, gives the impression that you don't actually want or care about the feedback.

I'm ok with the idea of the uniform being a little scuffed to allow for an observant eye to understand that potentially that person isn't actually on the same team. However, such things are common in war even today we hear of such stories. For the sake of gameplay, subtle differences for stolen uniforms so that it becomes a thing of skill to realize who is an imposter among friendly forces.

 

However, I am heavily against coming up with a way to prevent the use of enemy radios, like somehow if you picked up an enemy radio, it suddenly encrypts itself. Perhaps before a soldier dies, a button to allow them to disable their radio, and if done right, the enemy soldier who gets their hand on that radio can no longer use it. However, if a soldier dies and does NOT disable their radio, then they can still listen into enemy radio transmissions to gain an intelligence advantage. This would add an element of skill and organization so that it doesn't remove the current utility, but it adds the ability to make it harder to forces to gain a radio and listen into enemy transmissions, but it all depends on how the players react on the battlefield, and this is more interesting and more dynamic.

[Lone Penguin 15]

I think the stolen radio feature will become extra relevant when the "full freeform building" update will roll out, so I'm in favor of keeping it in the game.
Can't wait to play conflict mode with this feature. We will have to form recon teams to try and locate the ennemy's outposts, and come up with strategies to build and hide our own bases.
Stealing an ennemy radio might prove very useful to get intel about their plans if they aren't too careful.
Conflict sure promises to be an awesome gamemode in the future. Good luck Bohemia !